war wagon fort (mobile defense)

[Lion.Kanzen]

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One of the earliest examples of using conjoined wagons as fortification is described in the Chinese historical record Book of Han. During the 119 BC Battle of Mobei of the Han–Xiongnu War, the famous Han general Wei Qing used armored wagons known as "Wu Gang Wagon" (武剛車) in ring formations to neutralise the Xiongnu's cavalry charges, before launching a counteroffensive which overran the nomads.^[11]

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Ammianus Marcellinus, a Roman army officer and historian of the 4th century, describes a Roman army approaching "ad carraginem" as they approach a Gothic camp.^[2] Historians interpret this as a wagon-fort

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagon_fort

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Political: The Han dynasty originally had thought to essentially re-establish the Zhou dynasty system, aka distributing fiefdoms with the central fief being the largest, but over the first 3 generaiton that course completely failed as all the fiefs eventually got into war with the central court again and again, cultimating the the rebellion of the 7 states in the time of Han Jin Di (the father of Han Wudi)

Meanwhile, during the late Warring States period to the Early Han era, the massive infighting along with the rising power of the Xiong Nu saw them taking over the Hetao region which had been previously explored by the Zhao kingdom. the war there went back and forth as Qin Shi Huang managed to take them back but it was lost again in the wake of the Qin collapse, and Liu Bang's attempt to take it back ended up in failure.

So essentially, the Han had reformed itself into a true centralized state by the Time of Han Wudi, while the border zone between the nomads and settled people were in the hands of the Nomads at this point.

Social: The early Han emperors (and most fiefs as well) generally went for the so called "Huang Lao" (Daoist) Policies, aka try to keep low taxes and generally avoid civil projects (thus calling on civilian man power) as much as possible. essentially giving people rest and let the society rebuild itself. This was largely succesful and the general population / economy recovered from the disastorous wars starting from the late warring states to the end of the Chu / Han conflict.

Meanwhile though, the Han at this stage still did posses one trait of the Warring States, it's military system, which was the full conscription system, not unlike those of today, men must serve at least 3 years sometime before their mid 20s, (usually at least 1 year at the capital), and then be reactivated again if there's war, so that meant the Han had a very large pool of soldier that are not yet too far removed from being use to war. (the last major war was just 20 some years before the war against the Xiong Nu)


Military Tactics: Primarily, the Han tactics was what could be described as a carrier group on land, due to the logistical problem of fighting in the Steppes, the army had to bring along a very large convoy of supplies, what they did essentially was to carry the supplies in large heavy wagons, and when encountering the Xiong Nu the infantry would form up the wagons into a circle chain, turning it into a mobile fort. while their cavalry host fought mostly in the same matter as the Xiong Nu, aka horse archery. Using the wagon fort as cover / base for their operation. The Infantry to Cavalry ratio was roughly 2:1, though most of the fighting was primarily done by the Cavalry.

It should be said though, that the XiongNu war was in reality more of a mixed bag than a pure victory, or rather it could be called what Chinese would say "adding a leg to the drawn snake"

Phase 1:133-126 B.C, the objective was clear, to take back the Hetao region (the Northern Bend in the middle portions of the Yellow River). they had largely achieved this by 127/126 B.C,

Phase 2 123-119 B.C: at this point the objective became blurred, as the Han seem to wanted to give "a decisive strike" on the Xiong Nu but with no real other strategic objective in mind (since they alread retook the primary border region, all that's left are the nomadic pastrol lands which they can't hold.) And it became mostly just about trying to kill as many Xiong Nu as possible. not exactly a brilliant plan. Though by 119 B.C they had largely achieved their goal.. in the span of 5 years they killed / captured something like 200 thousand Xiong Nu. (but the price was heavy too)

Phase 3 104-90 B.C: if phase 2 was already quesitonable, phase 3 became all out ridiculas, as huge expedition were send with no real objective in mind, and many ended up in disastor, by this point it seem to have become a simple glory fest where the later few war was simply started for no reason other then a few particularly general wanted to gain fame and glory . The Social / Political / Economic state of the Wudi era had really begun to decline badly by then, and the military result more or less reflected this, this phase basically started with an disastor in 104 B.C where the Han tried to actively manipulate politics in the Steppes by sending an expedition to help decide a succession conflict, only to have the whole army destroyed (and the guy they support losing) and ended in another major disastor where Li Guang Li, the brother-in-law of the Emperor (and the glory seeker that started most of the late war) surrended to the Xiong Nu.



So the Han essentially achieved their real strategic goal almost right off the bat, but spent the next 3 decade on a wild goose chases that ended up doing little except putting a huge strain on the economy and society.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

@Lopess

we need to implement some defenses that are not towers but are mobile for nomadic tribes.

 

[Lopess]

5 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

@Lopess

we need to implement some defenses that are not towers but are mobile for nomadic tribes.

 

That would really be unique and cool.

[Lopess]

Lion try to contact Alexandre, if you can't we can try to replicate based on the models we already have.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, Lopess said:

Lion try to contact Alexandre, if you can't we can try to replicate based on the models we already have.

Yes I have Alexander contact.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I spoke to Alexander, he's going to search his files.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Eureka.

I know how to implement it. At least for now.

 

First, we create a base building, the carts are only garrisoned  there, And archers, same philosophy of the wall segments, with prop actors.

[Lopess]

 

Did @Alexandermb find the files? If I can't make a new one.

[Lion.Kanzen]

So we have a trench, with some small defenses, we only have to garrison the wagons, and archers.

 

Then the building that would be made would be an earth trench with some small defenses, like palisade and fences, with spikes, a pit (decoration) may be healing them.

 

Later I will do the sketch.

 

Now what I need is for normal wagons to turn into wagons of war, That what would amount to is a small siege tower,It will house only archers and spearmen, and it will garrison that trench.

 

There will already be at least 3 versions of it, of different level and capacity.

[Lion.Kanzen]

8 minutes ago, Lopess said:

 

Did @Alexandermb find the files? If I can't make a new one.

No pudo, no los encontró.

[Lion.Kanzen]

 

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

 

[Gurken Khan]

 I did some searching but I didn't find a description let alone a depiction of Han war wagons.

 

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

This illustration strikes me as wrong. Why are there less plank walls than wagons? How should the plank walls (in the front) be carried and lowered? Would be nice if the wagons at the side could be seen better.

I hope an artist can come up with something practical and believable...

Maybe more like this?

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

 I did some searching but I didn't find a description let alone a depiction of Han war wagons.

 

This illustration strikes me as wrong. Why are there less plank walls than wagons? How should the plank walls (in the front) be carried and lowered? Would be nice if the wagons at the side could be seen better.

I hope an artist can come up with something practical and believable...

Maybe more like this?

a little less European, it seems that the Han dynasty also did this once to attack the Xiongnu.

 

The fun is doing it with crossbowmen.

 

It is almost like a wooden fortress that is assembled and disassembled.

Excellent for siege and defense.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

Lopess' concept.

Would someone add something else to it?

[Lion.Kanzen]

@artoo

[artoo]

I sadly can't find any drawing of such Han wagon fort, or even a  full Han military camp.

From the wiki description, it sounds like the ancient equivalent of a heavy APC or so, or like a Toyota pickup with MG mounted positioned in a circle.

 

From the descriptions I read of crossbow usage, I think they had those large field artillery crossbows mounted on a wagon, pulled by horse. These are too big, stationary use for defense.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by artoo

[Lion.Kanzen]

11 minutes ago, artoo said:

From the descriptions I read of crossbow usage, I think they had those large field artillery crossbows mounted on a wagon, pulled by horse. These are too big, stationary use for defense.

you could give more details, maybe we draw it.

[artoo]

10 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

you could give more details, maybe we draw it.

Here are some example drawings, but don't ask what dynasty or period they are, its all bit unclear from sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_crossbows

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_siege_weapons

 

There is already this present , so It think this kind of thing, maybe slightly bigger with longer bow arms mounted on a wagon, or tower, wall etc

 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by artoo

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 minutes ago, artoo said:

Here are some example drawings, but don't ask what dynasty or period they are, its all bit unclear from sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_crossbows

 

There is already this present , so It think this kind of thing, maybe slightly bigger with longer bow arms mounted on a wagon, or tower, wall etc

 

 

sounds like fun. a killing machine.

 

@Lopess

[artoo]

Just now, Lion.Kanzen said:

sounds like fun. a killing machine.

Turns out, the Romans, Greeks are also not as sophisticated in game as they were with weapons technology.

Like the Xanten Manubalista find iirc 2007, estimated  officially early imperial. I often find myself in disagreement with official dating.

[Lion.Kanzen]

9 minutes ago, artoo said:

Turns out, the Romans, Greeks are also not as sophisticated in game as they were with weapons technology.

Like the Xanten Manubalista find iirc 2007, estimated  officially early imperial. I often find myself in disagreement with official dating.

can be balanced. The towers can be adapted to the ballistas.

[alre]

basically it's the same as a siege tower. If those can be balanced, this can too.

[artoo]

32 minutes ago, alre said:

basically it's the same as a siege tower. If those can be balanced, this can too.

More like a mobile Roman siege camp, but in terms of defensive firepower, much stronger.

The Han simply copied the Xiongnu tactics, they had almost no cavalry in the beginning, but used more advance technology.

Mentioned on the Han thread, 400.000 horse mounted Xiongnu against only 10.000 cavalry units in whole Han China. Infantry and hundreds of thousands different types of crossbows on Han side.

[Lopess]

Xiongnu Fortress.

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