Faction : Nomads Xiongnu

[Lion.Kanzen]

37 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

Can you rephrase that ?

Check the file, if is all correct, if adequate to be committed. Sorry I use poor words.

in Spanish when you put hand over a object is for i examination. Like a doctor or like mechanic or another specialist.

[Alexandermb]

Just now, Lion.Kanzen said:

Check the file, if is all correct, if adequate to be committed. Sorry I use poor words.

in Spanish when you put hand over a object is for i examination. Like a doctor or like mechanic or another specialist.

Menos mal que no hablo venezolano aquí jajaja.

[Alexandermb]

3 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

 

 

This is a tool or a weapon ?

[Alexandermb]

This are the props i wanted to see better for the infantry. now i can make the shield and axe

[Lion.Kanzen]

The problem is they only use infantry only after have superiority in battlefield, and use their mercenary or slaves as infantry.

this, there is a documentary about Huns fighting Compared with Alexander army. Alexander vs Attila.

they mention the use of Lasso. But in gameplay I can't imagine how this work.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

This is the source.

http://www.ernak-horde.com/Hun_warfare.html

later I try found the video because is different.

other thing in 0 A.D will be a feature to make a unit be ranged or change to be melee( exactly like total war)

[Lion.Kanzen]

Encontré una tienda de reproducciones modernas de varias de tipos armas antiguas.

http://hunarchery.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=111

an story link to have close idea. The Scythian axe (not antiquity of course)

 

[Alexandermb]

When i switched some huns names to "xiongnu" some bugs popped up in the templates. now they are fixed, and added an archer for test buildings. i've made foundations variations for the houses

[Lion.Kanzen]

I can't  wait to see units.

 

viste la idea de atrapar con el laso a sus victimas? En AoE 2 los Hunos tenían una unidad especial que hacía eso. Eran como vaqueros pero con humanos.

i know the game can try unit from units...so we can represent captured unit( melee infantry)  training from elite unit , Lasso /horse archer

[Lion.Kanzen]

Im not sure who is doing the crappy voice.

Spoiler

 

 

[Alexandermb]

Updated.

Huns.zip

[Alexandermb]

2 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

I can't  wait to see units.

 

viste la idea de atrapar con el laso a sus victimas? En AoE 2 los Hunos tenían una unidad especial que hacía eso. Eran como vaqueros pero con humanos.

i know the game can try unit from units...so we can represent captured unit( melee infantry)  training from elite unit , Lasso /horse archer

Se llamaban tarkan en aoe2. Tenían una especie de látigo o antorcha nunca la distinguí bien, de poder hacer el látigo animado puedo, el dilema esta en encontrarle el uso.
http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Tarkan

[Lion.Kanzen]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone You are modder and designer. What you think of Lasso. Is no popular like other weapons.

@Alexandermb the problem with that unit is the accuracy. They used as scourge, many reason. But I don't see. Any of them.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

Other scholars consider them an Empire.

Quote

The Xiongnu were also likely to have been polyglot. The Xiongnu Empire encompassed virtually every ethnic and linguistic group in Inner Asia. These included the Mongolic-speaking Donghu people to the east and the Indo-European-speaking Yuezhi people to the west. There was also a large population of Turkic and Iranian language speakers within the Xiongnu Empire. The Chinese source Jinshu (95.2486), compiled in the 7th century ce, gives us an extremely rare transliteration of what purports to be a Xiongnu song sung during a battle between two Southern Xiongnu factions in the early 4th century ce. Linguistic analysis conducted on this transliteration has shown that the song was composed in a language most likely related to Yeniseian languages (which currently survive only in small pockets in central Siberia). Edwin Pulleyblank and Alexander Vovin, on the basis of this analysis, have argued that the Xiongnu, therefore, must have had a Yeniseian-speaking core elite10 who dominated the various Tocharian-Iranian and Turco-Mongol subject nations. However, the song recorded in the Jinshu is sung by the Jie tribe of the wider Southern Xiongnu confederation, and whether or not the Jie tribe and the language they spoke are representative of the core ruling elite of the Xiongnu Empire remains highly uncertain. Other scholars have argued in favor of a Turkic,11Mongolic, or even Iranian ruling elite.

The European Huns, who originated from the Xiongnu Empire, are known to have spoken primarily a Turkic language, more specifically Oghuric Turkic.12 However, this may be due to the heavy concentration of Turkic peoples in the areas that the Huns inhabited immediately before their major expansions into Europe and Central Asia. The Chinese historical source, the Weilue (=Sanguozhi 30.863-4), confirms that the Dingling (an ancient Turkic people) were the main inhabitants of what is now the Kazakh steppes by the 3rd century ce. There is thus no scholarly consensus on the language that was spoken by the Xiongnu elite, and the whole debate may well be futile given the multifaceted identity of that elite and the multilingual empire they governed.

A more substantive debate is the dispute among scholars over whether the Xiongnu constituted a state or merely a complex tribal confederacy.13 The assumption that “nomadism” is somehow an insurmountable barrier to organized statehood has no doubt influenced this debate. However, as mentioned previously, the Xiongnu were not “nomads.” Significant elements of the Xiongnu population were indeed pastoralists, but pastoralism in ancient Inner Asia by no means implied a lack of fixed boundaries or limited organizational capacity. Exactly the opposite was the case, since the existence of well-defined territories and regular movements under an authoritative leader was essential for the survival of a pastoralist community in a very fragile ecological environment.14 Therefore, the idea that nomadism or pastoralism necessarily leads to political anarchy must first be dismissed as unfounded.

Nikolay Kradin, who thinks that the Xiongnu did not constitute a state, argues that a state must possess the following features:

And is long here are why they aren't an empire...and why other can call them Empire.

but... we have their organization. All is about king and king of kings.

Spoiler

Nikolay Kradin, who thinks that the Xiongnu did not constitute a state, argues that a state must possess the following features:

 

1. (1) access to managerial positions by a form of merit-based, extra-clan and non-kin-based selection

2. (2) regular taxation to pay wages to officials

3. (3) a special judicial power separate from political power

4. (4) a “class” of state functionaries engaged in running the state machinery, consisting of services for the administration of the whole political community.

 

It has been argued that this definition of the state is far too modernist and not nearly as relevant to, or appropriate in, defining pre-early-modern states like the Xiongnu. Kradin, however, argues that on the basis of these criteria, the Xiongnu achieved “statehood,” at best, merely at an “embryonic” level, and therefore should be categorized not as a state but as a super-complex chiefdom, a stateless empire.15

On the other hand, Lawrence Krader, who argues that all steppe empires of Eurasia were actually state-level polities, provides a much looser definition of the state than does Kradin,16 while Nicola Di Cosmo points out that the Xiongnu Empire, even by Kradin’s own criteria, was much more similar to a well-organized state than to a haphazardly constructed chiefdom. Di Cosmo’s observations are likely to be correct. As will be demonstrated, Xiongnu administration possessed distinct military and civilian apparatuses separate from kin-based hierarchies. Wages (in various forms) were paid to top military commanders and state functionaries from a political center headed by the Xiongnu Chanyu (emperor, also sometimes transliterated as Shanyu). The ceremonies and rituals conducted by the Xiongnu emperor were also meant to include the entire political community, not just his kin group. The complexity of the organization of the Xiongnu military, the grand imperial rituals, elaborate government structures, and politically centralized functions of trade and diplomacy all collectively point to what Di Cosmo calls a political machinery and supratribal, imperial ideology.17

Therefore, the Xiongnu should be defined as comprising a state or, at the very least, an “early state” entity18and also, without any dispute, as an empire: “a political formation that extended far beyond its original territorial or ethnic confines and embraced, by direct conquest or by the imposition of its political authority, a variety of peoples and lands that may have had different types of relations with the imperial center, constituted by an imperial clan and by its charismatic leader.”19

 

Political Organization of the Xiongnu

One of our principal sources on the Xiongnu, the Shiji, written by the Western Han dynasty historian Sima Qian, provides an elaborate picture of the Xiongnu political system. Sima Qian reports that a complex hierarchy existed among the Xiongnu, descending from an emperor (called Chanyu/Shanyu 單于‎, but likely to have been pronounced dàn-wà, representing the Xiongnu word darγ‎wa in Early Middle Chinese)20 to lesser kings and sub-kings. For want of a better term the system has been called “quasi-feudal.”21 Sima Qian reports:

 

Under the Shan-yü22 are the Wise Kings of the Left and Right, the left and right Lu-li kings, left and right generals, left and right commandants, left and right household administrators, and left and right Ku-tu marquises. The Hsiung-nu word for “wise” is “t’u-ch’i,” so that the heir of the Shan-yü is customarily called the “T’u-ch’i King of the Left.” Among the other leaders, from the wise kings on down to the household administrators, the more important ones command ten thousand horsemen and the lesser ones several thousand, numbering twenty-four leaders in all, though all are known by the title “Ten Thousand Horsemen.” The high ministerial offices are hereditary, being filled from generation to generation by the members of the Hu-yen and Lan families, and in more recent times by the Hsü-pu family. These three families constitute the aristocracy of the nation. The kings and other leaders of the left live in the eastern sector, the region from Shang-ku east to the land of the Hui-mo and the Ch’ao-hsien peoples. The kings and leaders of the right live in the west, the area from Shang province west to the territories of the Yüeh-chi and Ch’iang tribes. The Shan-yü has his court in the region of Tai and Yün-chung. Each group has its own area, within which it moves about from place to place looking for water and pasture. The Left and Right Wise Kings and the Lu-li kings are the most powerful, while the Ku-tu marquises assist the Shan-yü in the administration of the nation. Each of the twenty-four leaders in turn appoints his own “chiefs of a thousand,” “chiefs of a hundred,” and “chiefs of ten,” as well as his subordinate kings, prime ministers, chief commandants, household administrators, chü-ch’ü officials and so forth. (Shiji 110: 9b–10b)23

 

This information in the Shiji, though brief, gives us some critical details about the Xiongnu political system. The Chanyu, who was the functioning head of the central government, possessed the supreme power in the state. However, the actual administration of the empire seems to have been managed by the Gu-du/Ku-tu marquises. These state officials supervised communications with regional governors and vassal lords on behalf of the reigning emperor.

Under the direction of the central government, there were four principal, regional governorships in the East and West. These were called the “horns,” and they consisted of the Worthy King of the Left and the Luli King of the Left in the East and the Worthy King of the Right and the Luli King of the Right in the West. Each of these four governorships, like the central government, had its own government bureaucracy.24 The “kings,” who headed these governorships, were the highest-ranking nobles in the realm and were usually the sons or brothers of the reigning Xiongnu Chanyu. They all belonged to the Xulianti/Luanti imperial clan, which descended from the early Chanyus Touman and Modu. The other three aristocratic clans that were linked via family/marriage ties to the Chanyu were the Huyan, Lan, and Xubu. Together these clans constituted the ruling upper class of Xiongnu society.25

The later Hou Hanshu adds some more details to the information found in the Shiji. Below the four horn kings were six more kings: the Rizhu kings of the Left and Right (titles originally reserved for the sons and younger brothers of the Chanyu [Hou Hanshu 79.2944]), but later, for some reason, transferred to the aristocratic Huyan clan, which was related to the royal family by marriage; Wenyuti kings of the Left and Right; and the Zhanjiang Kings of the Left and Right. It has been argued that these six lesser kings were later added to the Xiongnu hierarchy after the Xiongnu had splintered into two separate entities, the Northern Xiongnu and Southern Xiongnu in the 1st century ce; that is, this was a political innovation introduced long after the time of the writing of the Shiji by Sima Qian.26 However, it may also simply be that the Han Chinese, by the time of the Later Han, had acquired a more accurate understanding of the Xiongnu political system and improved on the original description of Xiongnu political organization left in the Shiji by Sima Qian.27

Below these ten top-ranking nobles (or perhaps including these ten) were the twenty-four imperial leaders/ministers (each with the title Ten Thousand Horsemen). These lords were the imperial governors of the strategically key and most important provinces of the Xiongnu Empire. Again, many of them consisted of the close relatives of the Chanyu or were members of the Xiongnu aristocracy who were related to the royal house by marriage.28 These senior nobles were divided into eastern and western groups in a dual system,29and the designated heir to the throne was invested with the title Wise King of the Left, as the titular ruler of the eastern half of the empire.

At the bottom of this highly elaborate administrative hierarchy was a large group of subordinate, or vassal, tribal leaders. They are called in the Shiji subkings, prime ministers, chief commandants, household administrators, chü-ch’ü officials, and so on. These lower-ranked officials were controlled by the twenty-four imperial governors, but some of them at times enjoyed a considerable level of local autonomy.30 These were usually former rulers of conquered peoples who had been allowed to remain as subkings/chiefs under the overlordship of Xiongnu overkings.

With regard to the government of the more distant western parts of their territory, the Xiongnu created the office of the “Commandant in charge of Slaves.”31 These “commandants” apparently had the power to tax minor city–states, such as Karashar and Kalmagan (in what is now Xinjiang province in western China) and to conscript corvée labor for the Xiongnu central government. A system of decimal ranks (thousands, hundreds, tens, etc.) was used in times of war in order to assemble and regulate large-scale armies conscripted from different parts of the empire under a single command structure.32 A census was also taken to determine the empire’s reserve of manpower and livestock.33 In war, the Chanyu of the Xiongnu could reportedly mobilize an army of 140,000 men.34

It has been argued that at least some of these elaborate Xiongnu administrative practices were influenced by the practices of the neighboring Chinese. For instance, the complex Xiongnu hierarchy of kings and marquises (the highest ranks of which were reserved almost exclusively for members of the royal clan and the lesser ranks for leaders of other leading clans that intermarried with the royal clan)35 is quite similar to the manner in which kingdoms and marquisates within the Han imperial system were distributed. Also noteworthy is the fact that in the Xiongnu Empire the left, that is, the East, had precedence over the right/West. Some have argued that this may reflect the influence of Chinese ideas that identified the left (East) with the yang (as in yinyang) forces of generation and growth. The use of colors as symbolism for territory—blue for east, white for west, black for north, and red for south—also seems to correspond to the symbolism of Chinese cosmology (Wuxing, five elements theory).36 However, the possibility of Chinese influence on the Xiongnu is rejected by other scholars who argue that the resemblances or similarities between Xiongnu and Chinese administrative and cultural practices are the result of numerous shared sets of associations that probably go back to a more ancient cultural stratum.37 What is not at all in dispute is the fact that the political organization of the Xiongnu provided an excellent model on which all subsequent aspiring states in Inner Asia built their state administrations.38

http://asianhistory.oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190277727.001.0001/acrefore-9780190277727-e-50?rskey=P4qtPx&result=1

we are using Oxford source.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Lion.Kanzen

[Alexandermb]

Reminder: The actual units are placeholders for real Xiongnu units, the units clothes/armors are in the hands of the 2D expert's.

Basic: basic clothes or leather


advanced: leather helmet


elite: leather belts iron helmet.

[Lion.Kanzen]

You can deal with hats?

@wackyserious is good with textures in 3D units but @wowgetoffyourcellphone Have very good skills.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

More history but this time with arms and weapons.

 

Spoiler

The Xiongnu-Sarmatian Age, 2nd Century bce–4th Century ce

Ethnic and Historical Background

In this period the steppe was dominated by two political and ethnic groups: Xiongnu in the east and Sarmatians in the west. Their polities were hardly different from the polities of the Scythian-Sakas period; however, they had a higher level of political integration. Tribes of the Xiongnu-Sarmatian period formed militarily strong, but short-lived, political unions: “nomadic empires.”

The first “nomadic empire” was created by the Xiongnu at the end of the 3rd century bce during the reign of Maodun Shanyu. He came to power in 209 bce and launched several conquering campaigns.10 He had defeated the Donghu; later, some of them divided into the Wū huán and Xianbei. The Xiongnu were the main and most dangerous enemy of the Chinese empires of Qin and Han. After a series of internecine wars and division into “Northern” and “Southern” polities (48 ce), the Xiongnu became weakened, and in 91 ce they were defeated by Xianbei. In the middle of the 2nd century ce, the Xianbei under the leadership of Tanshihuai won a decisive victory over the Xiongnu and replaced them as the main adversary of the Han Empire.

The western part of the Chinese province Gansu was inhabited by Yuezhi, who probably spoke one of the languages that belonged to the Tocharian group of the Indo-European linguistic family.11 At the beginning of the 2nd century bce, the Yuezhi were defeated by the Xiongnu and retreated to the west, conquering the country of Dàyuān (Fergana Valley). At the end of the same century (between 123 and 80 bce), the Yuezhi invasion devastated the Greek-Bactrian kingdom,12 and their ruling clans established the dynasties of the Kushan Empire.

The Wusun nomads were located by Chinese chroniclers in the area of Gansu Province that bordered the Yuezhi territory. After war with the Yuezhi in 160 bce, the Wusun resettled in the lands of the Sakas-Tigraxauda behind the Tian Shan, in southeastern Kazakhstan. In the west, the Wusun territory bordered with Kanghu; in the east they bordered the Xiung-nu, while in the South their lands reached the Fergana Valley.13

According to the information in Chinese chronicles, from the 2nd century bce until the 3rd century ce, in the territory of southwestern Kazakhstan existed the nomadic state of Kanghu. The Kanghu, Wusun, and Yuezhi nomads were related and shared the so-called Sarmatized culture,14 which was similar to the culture of the Sarmatians.

The lands of the latter began to the west of Kanghu, in the area of the Aral Sea. Sarmatian is a general name of a large group of Iranian-speaking nomadic tribes, by which these peoples were known to Greek and Roman authors. By their origin the Sarmatians were related to their eastern neighbors: the Yuezhi and Wusun. From the 2nd century bce to the 4th century ce, the Sarmatians roamed the steppes stretching from the Aral Sea to the Danube. Strabo provides information about the names and location of some Sarmatian tribes in the 2nd–1st centuries bce. Aorsians inhabited the basins of the Ural, Volga, and Don Rivers; Siracians lived in the North Caucasus; lands between the Don and the Dnieper were occupied by Rhoxolans; while Yazygians lived further westward. In the mid-1st century ce the Alans, a military strong clan, migrated to Eastern Europe from the borders of Xiongnu lands and gained political leadership among all Sarmatian tribes. At the same time Yazygians crossed the Carpathians and settled in the interfluves of the Tisza and the Danube, on the border of the Roman Empire. Sarmatians dominated in the European steppe until the middle of the 4th century ce when, in 375, they and their allies the Goths were conquered by the Huns.15

Arms and Harness

Archaeological materials of this period demonstrate further progress in the development of nomadic weaponry. One achievement was the invention of the bow of the so-called “Hunnic” type. It was bigger than the “Scythian” type (up to 1.5 m long), and it was composite and reflex—that is, in a loose state such a bow would bend in the opposite direction. This construction considerably increased the compressive strength and destructive force of the bow. The middle and end parts of the bow of “Hunnic” type were reinforced by bone stiffening laths, with limbs alone remaining flexible. Arrows for such bows were 0.8–1 m long and had larger (up to 5 cm) and heavier heads in comparison with heads for the “Scythian” bow. Tactics changed as well; archery became less massive and more targeted, since the new type of arrows had better aerodynamic qualities than the Scythian ones.

The earliest known finds of bone plates belonging to a “Hunnic” bow were located at Xiongnu sites and are dated to the 2nd century bce. In the 2nd and 1st centuries bce, such bows spread amongst the neighbors of the Xiongnu: the Yuezhi, Wusun, and bearers of the Sargatka culture in Southern Siberia. In the 1st century bce, the Yuezhi brought new bows to Central Asia; the bows were also adopted by the Kanghu and Parthians. In the 1st century ce, the Sarmatians (Alans) spread the bows of “Hunnic” type in Eastern Europe, although the size and weight of most of their arrowheads indicate that the Sarmatians continued to use bows of the “Scythian” type.16

Gorytoi of a peculiar construction should be regarded as an eastern innovation of the Xiongnu-Sarmatian period. They consisted of two cylindrical quivers for arrows sewn to a bow case or attached to it in some other way. Such gorytoi survived in the necropolis of Niyä in the Tarim River Valley, in graves of the 2nd century ce.17 They are depicted on belt plaques from an Alan burial ground of Orlat in Sogdiana and on Bosporan grave stones.

During the Xiongnu-Sarmatian period, short swords were gradually replaced by long (up to 1 m) blades. Xiongnu, South Siberian Sargatka, and Sarmatian warriors sometimes obtained long Chinese swords with jade cross-bars and scabbard slides. Such swords or their jade elements were found at the sites of those nomads.18 Using long swords, the nomads of the Xiongnu-Sarmatian time gained the ability to slash from the horse. Thus, beginning from the 2nd century bce, nomads from the Xiongnu in the east to the Sarmatians in the west used long swords, often with disc-shaped pommels. They were made from alabaster; some specimens were polychrome, made from chalcedony, rock crystal, or amber, and decorated with gold. In the 1st century ce, such swords became usual weapons of the Sarmatians and Kanghu, although short swords with various pommels continued to prevail in graves as symbols of the military status of the deceased. Ceremonial daggers have been found in the burials of Sarmatian and Kushan kings, handles and sheaths richly decorated with golden plates bearing coral and turquoise inserts.

The spear became an indispensable weapon of armored warriors; spearheads almost always accompanied finds of armor from this period.

The armor of the Xiongnu-Sarmatian period also differed from that of the Scythian age. Lamellar armor became widespread, its elongated plaques joined together by a complex system of cords. This armor did not require a leather or textile base; it was lighter than the scaled one and more practical. Lamellar armors were used by the Xiongnu, Xianbei, Wusun, Kanghu, Sarmatians, and warriors of the Sargatka culture.

In the east, the Xiongnu and their nomadic neighbors preferred lamellar helmets, while in the west the Sarmatians liked to wear Greek, Celtic, and Roman imported helmets.19

The dominant horse harness of this period also underwent considerable changes. Its characteristic feature became a phalerae—silver gilded ornamented roundels decorating the breast plate on the horse’s shoulders and massive frontlets. However, the nomads’ main innovation of the period was a new type of saddle, with vertical arches.20 Wooden arches were attached to asymmetrically filled cushions on the pad-saddle, making the seat more comfortable and safer.

The Huns-Xianbei Age, 4th–5th Centuries ce...

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

Source http://asianhistory.oxfordre.com/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190277727.001.0001/acrefore-9780190277727-e-237?rskey=P4qtPx&result=3

[Lion.Kanzen]

Lamellar

Double quiver.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Lion.Kanzen

[Alexandermb]

4 helmets

[Lion.Kanzen]

Nice.

[Alexandermb]

On 28/8/2017 at 7:23 PM, Lion.Kanzen said:

I posted more in somewhere in eyecandy topic.

 

found a way to make a triple fase foundation for the yurts

Fase 1


Fase 2



Fase 3



Finished

[Stan`]

Cool, how did you do that ?

[Alexandermb]

Used a normal foundation but instead of using the variant name "Scaffold" called the 3 new karth damaged  textures variations (They seem to work with props, so they can work with animations for injured units animations i guess) "heavydamaged", "mediumdamaged", "lightdamaged" + "alive" for keep the last props until finish. if the "scaffold" variation is called it will ignore the damaged variations. and copied 3 templates for disable the <ConstructionPreview> line 

full scale capture

Spoiler

 

[Alexandermb]

Made the 3 stages for each house variation

Edited September 14, 2017 by Alexandermb