Town bell (alert) improvements

[temple]

I thought it'd be good to have a topic on this issue, maybe to build a consensus.

The current system (minus bugs): There's two levels of alert, the first for women and the second for all units. The alert affects all units within the area (except those garrisoned). When put under alert a unit stops what it's doing and tries to garrison in the nearest building, or continues on to the next one if that's full. When the alert is lifted, the unit ungarrisons (if needed) and returns to its pre-alert work orders.

The philosophy behind this, as I see it: Units put under alert should drop what they're doing and run and hide. When the alert is lifted they should come out and return to what they were doing previously.

So the questions are: Is that a good philosophy for the town bell/alert? And if so, can we make improvements to the current implementation that are consistent with it?

Keep in mind that since the town bell is an emergency measure, its behavior should be relatively simple and intuitive -- we don't want to rewrite Petra.

[temple]

Here's a couple improvements (D681) I thought about:

1. #4457 "When the bell is rung, units ejected from a destroyed building should garrison in another"

This makes a lot of sense to me. If the units are "running and hiding", then they should do that after the building they're garrisoned inside is captured or destroyed too.

2. Put garrisoned units under alert too.

In light of the above, this would mean pre-garrisoned units would also run and hide when their building's captured or destroyed, rather than walk to the building's rally point.

A lot of players garrison women just in the area where the attack is happening, and only use the town bell if the attack becomes larger. Currently the women garrisoned first won't be put under alert, so when you lift the alert they'll stay garrisoned rather than returning to work. It's very easy to forget about them in that scenario, so they end up staying inside their house for the rest of the game!

(There's also a timesaver here if you want to clear out garrisoned buildings: quickly raise an alert then lift it. Units garrisoned will eject and return to work, while non-garrisoned units will stop for a second before resuming their work.)

[temple]

And here's some comments and my replies:

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Imarok. Mon, Jun 26, 2:47 PM
Just quickly tested one thing:
garrison some dudes in a tower, then later raised alert and ended it again: my dudes also were ungarrisoned.
I don't think this is a good behaviour, because when I put my soldiers into a tower and let's say 20 mins later raise and end an alert, I want them stay in the tower.
I think only those who where garrisoned because of the town bell, should come out and return to work when the alert is lifted.

If you only used the first alert level, then the garrisoned soldiers would stay garrisoned since they wouldn't be put under alert.
To me, there's no reason (apart from healing) to have units garrisoned if the enemy's not around; I'd rather have those units working. But I understand your view too. Hopefully in this thread we can get a sense of what the community prefers.
 

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causative. Mon, Jun 26, 3:21 PM

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    If a building is captured or destroyed, ejected units will try to find a new building to garrison inside.

That may not be a good thing. I often will set a rally point for a building before it's destroyed, so that the units inside will run away to the desired location when the building is destroyed.

If you ungarrison them before the building's captured or destroyed then they'll walk to the rally point. If you're only at the first alert level, then soldiers will move to the rally point while women will run and hide.
 

Quote

By the way, don't know if you are planning to do this, but there's one change to the bell that could make it a lot smarter: don't have 30 units run to a building that only has 20 garrison limit. I might do this at some point if you don't. It would work like this: Each building should track the number of "reserved spots" for units with a garrison order at the building who have not yet reached the building. Currently, the bell will direct units to the building if the building has available garrison space, but with this change the bell would direct units to the building only when current garrison + reserved spots < max garrison.

The net effect of this change would be to reduce the time women mill about vulnerably when the bell is rung, which would reduce the impact of cavalry raids a bit.

That might be nice in some situations, but it seems like there are too many complications. (What happens if there's not enough garrison spots for everyone, do they try to garrison somewhere anyway, or just stand still? What happens if some units die on their way to a building, do other units continue on towards a building that's farther away, or do they turn around and try to garrison in this building that now has free spots, potentially running into the enemy and dying themselves? What happens if you manually change some of the garrison orders, because you care more about elite priests than expendable women, do other units continue with their orders or do they alter them now that the "reserved spot" numbers have changed?)

So in this case I probably prefer dumb and predictable ("find the closest building that's not full") rather than smart and unpredictable.

Edited June 30, 2017 by temple

[causative]

Ideal bell system:

1. The bell should only work on women.  I normally do not want to garrison the soldiers using the bell.  I want to direct the soldiers manually.  Consider that soldiers do more damage outside of towers/fort/CC than they do inside.  The main purpose of garrisoning soldiers when the enemy attacks is to prevent capture, and this should be done on a case by case basis if the enemy is trying to capture.
2. The market should also have a bell that works on all your traders anywhere and makes them garrison in your own or allied buildings.
3. There should be a hotkey to ring/un-ring the bell (once CC is selected) so you can respond quicker to raids.
4. The bell should reserve spots for units so it won't try to garrison 30 units into a 20 garrison limit building.  This would reduce the impact of raids because women would more quickly find safety instead of milling around getting slaughtered.
5. If you select women and manually garrison them in the CC or houses without ringing the bell, the "safe" bell should put them back to work.  This would reduce the impact of raids because it lets you manually garrison just the women that are in immediately danger, and easily put them back to work afterwards.
6. A smaller-radius bell should also exist on the storehouse.  This would let you garrison just your woodcutters.
7. No alert status on units!  This would greatly simplify the implementation and prevent bugs.  Just two bells, "alert" and "safe," that you can ring at any time.  When the "alert" bell is rung, all women in range try to garrison, and remember their previous task.  If a woman is working and you select her and tell her to garrison or move (without using the bell), she will also remember her previous task.  When the "safe" bell is rung, all women in range that are garrisoned (or garrisoning, walking, or idle) will ungarrison and return to their previous task, like the back to work command.

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(What happens if there's not enough garrison spots for everyone, do they try to garrison somewhere anyway, or just stand still? What happens if some units die on their way to a building, do other units continue on towards a building that's farther away, or do they turn around and try to garrison in this building that now has free spots, potentially running into the enemy and dying themselves? What happens if you manually change some of the garrison orders, because you care more about elite priests than expendable women, do other units continue with their orders or do they alter them now that the "reserved spot" numbers have changed?)

• Not enough garrison spots:  have them try to garrison somewhere.  That at least gets them moving which makes them less of a target.
• If some units die on their way to a building, no orders change.  See (7) above:  no alert status.  The bell is rung as a one time event that gives a garrison order to the affected units, it doesn't have any lasting effect after that.  See how it simplifies things?
• The reserved spots are only calculated when you ring the bell, and forgotten after that.  So, units continue with their orders.  You could ring the bell a second time to recalculate the bell order.

Edited June 30, 2017 by causative

[temple]

I like all of those ideas, causative. (I never (purposely) use the second alert level.)

[Grugnas]

12 hours ago, causative said:

Ideal bell system:

1. The bell should only work on women.  I normally do not want to garrison the soldiers using the bell.  I want to direct the soldiers manually.  Consider that soldiers do more damage outside of towers/fort/CC than they do inside.  The main purpose of garrisoning soldiers when the enemy attacks is to prevent capture, and this should be done on a case by case basis if the enemy is trying to capture. Perhaps having a military bell for towers would help to garrison units in the selected towers.
2. The market should also have a bell that works on all your traders anywhere and makes them garrison in your own or allied buildings. That would be nice and would solve the "lost trader" issue
3. There should be a hotkey to ring/un-ring the bell (once CC is selected) so you can respond quicker to raids.   That would be nice

 

[soloooy0]

I like idea militar bell in the towers and is interesting protec market 

[sphyrth]

Things I agree with
1. Women-only Bell (not multi-level), Tower Bell, and Market Bell
2. Garrisoned Units should also be aware of the Alert.

What I'm on the fence about:
Alerted units should drop whatever resource they're carrying. (Gameplay vs. Realism)

What I don't agree with:
Garrison Traders on Allied Market. What if you ally wants HIS traders inside there?

Something I got curious about:
[Z] Women-only Bell, [X] Military-only Bell (Same Sample-only Hotkeys for their Unring). This one is not for the Civic Center. But for the ironically named Military Colony that is able to train Women Citizens.

[temple]

I've implemented some things (mostly causative's ideas) in D681 and D937 and was looking for any feedback. I think for the moment I'll stick to women and traders and wait until later to add a bell for military units since they might want it at civic centers too and that might be tricky.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Even the sound effect can be better, less monotone.

[DarcReaver]

After playing quite some games in AoE I I sort of question why the town bell is in the game at all anyways. Just makes the game more campy..

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, DarcReaver said:

After playing quite some games in AoE I I sort of question why the town bell is in the game at all anyways. Just makes the game more campy..

Because is an feature in mostly of AoE franchise.

[DarcReaver]

4 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Because is an feature in mostly of AoE franchise.

Yes. this is the argument for almost everything gameplay related. Might be worth a shot to question why something is necessary instead of copying...

[Lion.Kanzen]

Just now, DarcReaver said:

Yes. this is the argument for almost everything gameplay related. Might be worth a shot to question why something is necessary instead of copying...

0 A.D was conceived after AoE 2 , for the epoch was revolutionary and realist. now  is considerate old school.

Remember AoE 1 don't have things like a siege ram or capturing , you can't camping(turtle) in 0 A.D like you do in AoE franchise.

The first you can use houses to turtling. "even in offensive"

Spoiler

 

 

 

[DarcReaver]

Nah don't get me wrong. I know that 0 ad has stuff ingame that is not part of AoE, but once again - we had multiple discussions in the past about the overall gameplay, and that copying stuff from another game without having a "clue" about its impact is bad. And town bell mechanics, among others, should be made part of a discussion if it's necessary.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Just now, DarcReaver said:

Nah don't get me wrong. I know that 0 ad has stuff ingame that is not part of AoE, but once again - we had multiple discussions in the past about the overall gameplay, and that copying stuff from another game without having a "clue" about its impact is bad. And town bell mechanics, among others, should be made part of a discussion if it's necessary.

indeed. bell mechanics have double impact(negative and positive) and 0 A.D its the  firts one have two levels. even in AoE 2 have this impact, in early is too bad have the CC or TC "idle".

 

[DarcReaver]

Yes. The town bell in AoE 2 is in because the game's economy units are very important to keep alive. Villagers are slow moving and resource gathering is slow and it's hard to boom. Loosing a couple of villagers can be gg at any time.

In AoE I you have easier time to expand the economy, especially from bronze onwards because TCs are easy to build and wheel villagers work very fast. Also it's easy to redeploy villagers because of their speed.

Since it's much easier to boom in 0 AD (faster villager creation, villagers from houses etc.) and loosing vills does not matter that much I sort of question why the game has an easy mode defense mechanism.

Edited January 29, 2018 by DarcReaver

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 minutes ago, DarcReaver said:

Yes. The town bell in AoE 2 is in because the game's economy units are very important to keep alive. Villagers are slow moving and resource gathering is slow and it's hard to boom. Loosing a couple of villagers can be gg at any time.

In AoE I you have easier time to expand the economy, especially from bronze onwards because TCs are easy to build and wheel villagers work very fast. Also it's easy to redeploy villagers because of their speed.

Since it's much easier to boom in 0 AD (faster villager creation, villagers from houses etc.) and loosing vills does not matter that much I sort of question why the game has an easy mode defense mechanism.

however I'm not much fan of vanilla machanic , in AoE 1-2 you havent  a thing like ranged cavalry (hit and run)  in early, that's why is the most used early rush since many alphas.

I dont like that, I'm not big fan of "suppress things" and add new variants... I love the simplify of AoE 1.the fans of first game are more micro than AoE2 average player.

-----

in all games like this the defenses are more value than Sc1-2 for example.  you need expand easily over resources making bases because you haven't storehouses.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

5 hours ago, DarcReaver said:

Yes. The town bell in AoE 2 is in because the game's economy units are very important to keep alive. Villagers are slow moving and resource gathering is slow and it's hard to boom. Loosing a couple of villagers can be gg at any time.

In AoE I you have easier time to expand the economy, especially from bronze onwards because TCs are easy to build and wheel villagers work very fast. Also it's easy to redeploy villagers because of their speed.

Since it's much easier to boom in 0 AD (faster villager creation, villagers from houses etc.) and loosing vills does not matter that much I sort of question why the game has an easy mode defense mechanism.

I'd much rather the town bell be kept in for mods at least.  In DE I got rid of the citizen-soldier concept and have dedicated economic units now, so the town bell is useful here.

[Lion.Kanzen]

On ‎28‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 6:17 PM, DarcReaver said:

Yes. The town bell in AoE 2 is in because the game's economy units are very important to keep alive. Villagers are slow moving and resource gathering is slow and it's hard to boom. Loosing a couple of villagers can be gg at any time.

In AoE I you have easier time to expand the economy, especially from bronze onwards because TCs are easy to build and wheel villagers work very fast. Also it's easy to redeploy villagers because of their speed.

Since it's much easier to boom in 0 AD (faster villager creation, villagers from houses etc.) and loosing vills does not matter that much I sort of question why the game has an easy mode defense mechanism.

I love can have many your suggestion as set put options. sounds fun but remember the immersion, some kind reality, not too much as Rome but not too empty as AoE original, even without Rise of Rome expansion. that's I call arcade, because is the opposite to simulation or realistic.

Can be nice as mode a game like quit territory influence or quit citizen soldiers, or automatic farming.

[Lion.Kanzen]

On ‎28‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 11:39 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I'd much rather the town bell be kept in for mods at least.  In DE I got rid of the citizen-soldier concept and have dedicated economic units now, so the town bell is useful here.

Noooo, font quit more features, even the game (DE) for one reason feels empty or missing something. can be nice upgrade villager to focus in doing better gathering. like slavs but to early.

Introduce hunter unit with more gathering meat skills or improved farms with special unit/building or developing the village between farming or cattle system.

I love how you explore or hunt in AoE 1 more micro but more pleasant than AoE2. 

 

May be hunter needs more hp vs wild animals more gathering rate or capacity and more LoS. like horseman but at foot. and an aura. but this decreasing your berry gathering... something like that were your decisions can influence mid game and late game.

 

[DarcReaver]

On 1/29/2018 at 6:39 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I'd much rather the town bell be kept in for mods at least.  In DE I got rid of the citizen-soldier concept and have dedicated economic units now, so the town bell is useful here.

Sure, nothing wrong with that.

@Lion.Kanzen like this, yes. like I said multiple times, noone needs another Age game with AoE DE, AoE 2 HD, AoE 2 DE on the way.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, DarcReaver said:

Sure, nothing wrong with that.

@Lion.Kanzen like this, yes. like I said multiple times, noone needs another Age game with AoE DE, AoE 2 HD, AoE 2 DE on the way.

I think needs GUI, we can call them as ruleS.as gameplay advamced

• no territory
• no citizen soldiers
• no heroes
• no garrison
• no relic
• trait time
• no diplomacy
• no formations (more puristish)
• battalion only (inverted as last)
• reveled map
• explored map
• no defense structures
•  
• etc

and custom templated of this.

 

Spoiler

No camping. 

CBA.

classic(AoE2-AoK)

0 A.D Classic.

Arcade. (Puritanish)

Simulation.

 

Without modding.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Lion.Kanzen

[DarcReaver]

the issue with settings is that people will treat the standard rules as "basic" game, so this won't help for competitive multiplayer I fear. Unless you make a "tourney" mode or "competitive mode" that automatically sets up certain rules.

In theory this might work - a "fun game" mode where you can play whatever you want (unranked) and a competitive game where you set up certain rules.

[Adeimantos]

I like the two level bell, but I'd like if on one of the levels citizen soldiers would drop off their resources then fight.  Maybe on first ring women garrison and range units start fighting, on second level range units garrison and melee units fight. I'd also like if women would garrison automatically when attacked then come out when enemies are gone.