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Byzantines

This topic is used for discussing the civilization of the Byzantines. Relating tasks go in the appropriate subforum.

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A brief description:

The Byzantine Empire, known contemporaneously as the (Eastern) Roman Empire, was the predominantly Greek continuation of the Roman Empire during Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages. Christian in nature, it was perennially at war with the Muslims, Flourishing during the reign of the Macedonian emperors, its demise was the consequence of attacks by Seljuk Turks, Crusaders, and Ottoman Turks.

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This was made a long time ago trying to follow somehow the rome range "Byz Range".  

Indeed, there is already a thread about Byzantines:   

Posted Images

Good starting points can be found here:

http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15216

and

http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18561

But, as Flavius Aetius stated, be careful with the images in the first topic listed, since some of them are wrong:

[...]

Many of the images on this thread, are frankly, WRONG. I recognized many of the ones in the first post as being by D'Amato, who frankly has his own crazy fantasies about the Roman army that are horribly incorrect.

[...]

Also these topics refer mostly to the timespan tíll 476 A.D. (The years that Millennium A.D. starts). So we need to know what changes there were made (Mostly likely eastern influences) when looking to the army.

Buildings are pretty self explanatory.

Also a good point is how to make the Byzantines unique. Maybe it lies in the fact that they have a access to a wide spectrum of units?

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Ok

Some history in order bring light to this.

Bizantium before Rome.

Constantinople (Κωνσταντινούπολις) or Byzantium (Βυζάντιον): Greek city on the Bosphorus, capital of the Roman Empire after 326, modern İstanbul.

According to a legend, told by the Roman historian Tacitus, the god of Delphi ordered the Megarans to build a city "opposite the land of the blind" (Annals, 12.63). This referred to the inhabitants of Chalcedon, who had founded their city east of the Bosphorus, whereas the western side is a much better place. A similar story is told by the Greek researcher Herodotus of Halicarnassus, who attributes the remark about the blindness of the Chalcedonians to the Persian commander Megabazus (Histories, 4.144). Tacitus adds that catching fish was especially easy at the place where Byzantium was to be build, and explains that this was one of the sources of Byzantine wealth. Another advantage was the Golden Horn (Chrysokeras; satellite photo), a deep inlet that offers excellent protection to the city: an army can only approach it from the west.

The acropolis of Byzantium (with the Hagia Sophia), seen from the north.

The founder of the city was, reportedly, a man named Byzas, who in 658 BCE came from Megara with settlers from his own town, supplemented with people from Corinth, Argos, and Boeotia. While the provenience of the settlers can not be confirmed, the fact that Megara was the mother city can be corroborated: the names of the Byzantine institutions, months, and phylai are identical to those of Megara.

The city became part of the Achaemenid Empire in c.513, when king Darius I the Great crossed to Europe. The temporary bridge that he built, at the place of the modern Fath Sultan Mehmet bridge, was an important monument, and the columns that decorated it, were later brought to Byzantium, where Herodotus saw them in the shrines of Dionysus and Artemis (Histories, 4.87).

Byzantine coin, first century BCE (!!)

After the Persian Wars (490, 480-479), Byzantium became a democratic town and a member of Athens' Delian League, to which it paid a high tribute - an indication of the city's prosperity. The city was loyal, and this was important: Athens was a big city that needed to import grain from the Black Sea, so control of the Bosphorus was imperative. However, during the second half of the Peloponnesian War, which is usually called the Decelean or Ionian War, Byzantium switched sides (411). The Spartan governor Clearchus and his garrison were outwitted by the Athenian leader Alcibiades and the city became Athenian again in 408, but remained vulnerable. When the Spartan admiral Lysander threatened to attack Byzantium in 405, the Athenians were sufficiently alarmed to fight a battle with him in the Hellespont at Aigospotamoi, which they lost. From now on, Byzantium was pro-Sparta again, and the food supply of Athens was cut off. The city that had once been master of the Aegaean world surrendered to Sparta in April 404 and its alliance was dissolved.

In the fourth century, the Delian League was restored, and Byzantium joined the Athenian alliance again, until the Social War (357-355), which meant the final end of Athens' hegemony. The power vacuum was filled by king Philip II of Macedonia, who laid siege to Byzantium and nearby Perinthus in 340, but backed off when the Achaemenid Empire energetically intervened by sending armies to Europe again. The Byzantines believed they had received divine help from Hecate, and started to use her symbols on their coins: a star and a crescent moon - an icon that is still in use in Turkey.

Tombstone of Menios (Arkeoloji Mzesi, İstanbul)

Byzantium appears to have been an important cultural center; at least, we know the names of several authors, something that we do not know for the preceding or following centuries. Well-known were the tragedian Homerus, the engineer Philo, and the astrologer Epigenes. The inhabitants were sometimes portrayed as decadent - for instance, in his comedy The Flute Girl, Menander puts a Byzantine merchant on the stage who boasts to be drunk all day.

Byzantium retained some of its independence in the Hellenistic age, although it paid tribute to Galatian tribes moving from Europe to Asia. When the Byzantines tried to compensate themselves by demanding money from those who were sailing through the Bosphorus, Rhodes declared war in 220; Byzantium was forced to give in (Polybius, World History, 4.49.9-52.10). This proves that it was a very powerful city indeed. The Romans will have been grateful when Byzantium sided with them. This was the beginning of a long tradition of cooperation (cf. Tacitus, Annals, 12.62).

For a city that is still inhabited, we know quite a lot about the topography of Byzantium. A visitor would have seen two important ports along the Golden Horn: the Prosphorion port in the area of the modern Sirkeci railroad station, and the Neorion port, a bit further to the west, in the area of the modern Galata bridge. Next to the Prosphorion, there were shrines dedicated to the deities of Eleusis, and to Achilles and Ajax. The Strategeion was also in this area. On the Acropolis (modern Topkapı), the gods Dionysus, Poseidon, Athena, Artemis, and Aphrodite had their temples - the last one being almost identical to the current church of the Divine Peace.

A bit more to the south, there was a big square, surrounded by four porticoes and consequently called Tetrastn, "four stoa square". It has survived the centuries: it was later renamed Augusten, and is now known as Sultanahmet Meydanı. In the neighborhood, one could find a sanctuary of Tyche and Rhea, and in the area of the future hippodrome, Hecate was venerated.

tQqSj15.png I discard this symbol because is a Bizantine symbol pre Hellenistic(Macedonian) time

http://www.livius.org/cn-cs/constantinople/byzantium-greek.html

Contrary to popular belief, Greece has a long history of heraldry. Unfortunately, this rich tradition was almost completely eradicated during the Ottoman rule of the Greek lands (traditionally placed from the fall of Constantinople in 1453 to the Greek War of Independence in 1821 though not historically accurate).

As we all know, heraldry was introduced as a form of identification of knights and leading warriors in general on the battlefield. For that reason, heraldry came up with its tinctures and its rules. Also, because heraldry was originally used in the battlefield, and imagine what the battlefields of the middle ages looked like, the earliest arms were very simple: a single tincture or a single charge or ordinary.

During the middle ages, Greece continued under the Roman Empire but it had become wholly hellenized. The Eastern Roman Empire, with its capital in the newly renamed Constantinople, is better known as the Byzantine Empire.

The mid to late Byzantine period coincides with the beginning of heraldry as we know it in the rest of Europe. With the crusaders having to pass through the empire to get to the Holy Land, many of the traditions of the western and eastern parts of Europe were exchanged. If heraldry had not already taken in the empire yet, it did with the Crusades. However, this is purely my own conjecture

On a more scientific basis, we can find images on seals that can be considered heraldic but, these are more personal rather than familial. It is in the 13th century with the restoration of the Empire under the Palelogos line that we can find heraldry as we know it today. However, heraldry remained with the upper classes and was not as widespread as other countries in western Europe. The arms typically ascribed to the Byzantine Empire are the double headed eagle and the tetragrammatic cross. I am not clear on whether these were just those of the Empire or also those of the Paleologos. The Bs in the tetragrammatic (which mean 4 letters in Greek) cross have been given the meaning of Βασιλεύς Βασιλέων Βασιλεύων Βασιλευόντων or King of Kings Ruler of Rulers.

Yt9KpRM.png

mXEofMd.png

After the fall of Constantinople, the tradition continues in those lands not under Ottoman rule such as Rhodes (with the Hospitaller knights), Crete (under the Venetians) and the Ionian islands (also under Venice). However, only the latter remained outside of Ottoman rule completely. The heraldry of Rhodes is mostly of the Hospitaller knights, better known today as the Sovereign Military Order of Malta.

Especially in the Ionian islands, the Greek population adopted many of the Italian traditions and each island had its noble families listed in the local Libro dOro along with their coat of arms. Many of these families sent their children to Italy to study and in most cases, if they didnt already have arms, they adopted new arms when at University.

Johannes Rietstap, the noted Dutch heraldist of the 19th century, is best known for his published list of the blazons of arms of over 130000 families of Europe. Amongst those, we find a number of Greek families of which a small sampling are listed below (from the online Rietstap database in French):

(We need help here Stan )

Agelastos Dargent, à deux bandes dazur.

Agliardis Écartelé: aux 1 et 4, dazur, à laigle de sable, couronnée dor; aux 2 et 3, de sable, à trois pommes de grenade au naturel. Casque couronné.

Angelos De gueules, à quatre grandes fusées dor, rangées en croix, chaque fusée ch. dun ange habillé dune dalmatique dargent, et dune tunique dazur, ailé dargent, tenant de sa main dextre une épée du même, en bande.

Anthonis Dor, au chevron de gueules, acc. en pointe dun sanglier de sable.

Argyropoulos Dor, à une tête et col daigle de sable issant dun coeur de gueules, la tête traversée par un sabre dargent garni dor posé en bande. Timbre: couronne du Saint-Empire. Supports: deux licornes de sable.

Argyros Dor, à la croix dazur, cantonnée de quatre étoiles (5) du même.

Comneno Dor, à laigle éployée de sable, tenant de sa griffe dextre une épée et de sa senestre un sceptre et surmontée dune couronne impériale, ladite aigle ch. dun écusson ovale dargent, surch. de trois cloches dazur.

Comnenos Dargent, à trois fasces de sable (armes de la ville de Trébisonde). Les membres de la famille impériale portaient ces armes sur le tout de leurs armes de famille qui étaient: Dor, à trois cloches de sable.

Ducas Dazur, à la croix dargent.

Lascaris De gueules, à laigle éployée dor, chaque tête couronnée du même. Devise: LASCARORUM FELICITATI.

Lascaris Dor, à laigle éployée de sable, languée et armée de gueules, surmontée dune couronne à lantique dor.

Lascaris De gueules, à laigle éployée dor, chaque tête couronnée du même, ch. sur la poitrine dun écusson de gueules à un soleil dor. Légende: NEC ME FULGURA.

Lascaris Écartelé dazur et dargent, à laigle éployée de sable, becquée et membrée dor, languée de gueules, brochant sur les écartelures, chaque tête couronnée dor, ch. sur la poitrine dun écusson de gueules à un soleil dor.

Lascaris-Castellar Dor, à laigle éployée de sable, becquée et membrée de gueules.

Palaeologos Armes de fam.: De gueules, à la croix dor. Armes mod.: De gueules, à la croix dor, cantonnée de quatre B du même (signifiant Basileus Basileuvn Basileuvn Basileuontun, en français: Roi des Rois, régnant sur des rois, Michel Pâleologue, élevé au trône byzantin en 1260, ajouta les quatre B aux armes de famille.).

Palamides Dargent, à un dragon ailé à deux pattes de sinople, rehaussé dor.

There are a few other sources one can look at to get blazons of arms of Greek families. One of the main sources cited repeatedly is the book written in 1983 by Mihail Dimitri Sturdza Grandes Familles de Grèce, dAlbanie et de Constantinople.

Another excellent and well researched source on heraldry focused on families from the Ionian island of Kefalonia is the website of Mr. Panayotis Cangelaris. He has posted his paper on the arms of Greek students at the University of Padova during the 17th and 18th centuries here. He has also published a dedicated list of those students from the island here.

- See more at: http://www.idtg.org/archive/155-heraldry-in-greece/#sthash.Zb2S7aA8.dpuf

Edited by Lion.Kanzen
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These arms all come from Rietstap. The Angelos, Cantacuzene, Comnene, Ducas, Lascaris, Paleologue, Vatatzes families held the imperial throne at some point, and all but one display a double-headed eagle. A branch of the Paleologue family ruled over Montferrat in Northern Italy, when the title passed to the Gonzaga family (who quartered their arms with Paleologue); the latter died out in the early 18th century. As for the Comnene, they were still living in Corsica at the time of the French Revolution.

Angelos gules, 4 lozenges Or with an angel on each. (Greece)

Argyros Or, a cross between 4 stars azure.

Barbaro Argent, an annulet gules.

Cantacuzene Gules, a double-headed eagle displayed crowned, Or. (Greece)

Comnene Or, beneath an imperial crown proper, a two-headed eagle displayed Sable on a sword per pale Argent, the hilt Or. (Corsica, Savoy)

Comneno Or, beneath an imperial crown proper, a double-headed eagle displayed Sable, holding in each claw a sword paleways Argent; on its breast an oval escutcheon, Argent 3 bells (?) Azure. (Milan)

Comnenos (emperors of Trebizonde): Argent, three bars Sable. (Greece)

Ducas Azure, a cross Argent. (Greece)

Koressio (dukes): Sable, beneath an imperial crown proper, a two-headed eagle displayed Or, holding in each claw a sword paleways Argent. (Greece)

Lascaris Or, a double-headed eagle Sable, beaked Gules, beneath an eastern crown Or. (Greece)

Lascaris Gules, a double-headed eagle displayed crowned, Or; on its breast an escutcheon: Gules, a sun Or. (Verona, Dalmatia)

Lascaris quartered Azure and Argent, on which an double-headed eagle Sable, membered, beaked, crowned Or; on its breast an escutcheon: Gules, a sun Or. (Verona).

Lascaris Gules, a double-headed eagle displayed crowned, Or. (Greece, Provence)

Lascaris quartered Gules a chief Or; and Gules, a double-headed eagle displayed crowned, Or.

Lascaris-Castellar: Or, a double-headed eagle Sable, membered, beaked Gules. (Italy)

Melissinos Gules, an escutcheon or, 3 bells sable, between six bees 1, 2, 2, 1

of the second.

Melisurgo Azure, on a mound in base three daisies argent, below four bees per fess or, in dexter chief a sun issuant of the last.

Micrulaches Gules, three lions passant or.

Palaelogos Gules, a Cross and four B's Or. (Greece)

Paleologue Gules, a double-headed eagle displayed crowned, Or. (Greece, Piedmont)

Phocas Gules, four lozenges conjoined in pale gules.

Phouskarnaki Azure, the figure of the Blessed Virgin bearing the Divine Child argent.

Phrangopoulos Sable, a fleur-de-lys or.

Rhadino Argent, the sun in splendor or.

Rhangabe Azure, a cross flory between the letters "e", "n", "t", "n" argent.

Rhaoules Azure, a leopard rampant or.

Rhodocanakis Gules, a two-headed eagle or, on its breast an escutcheon Azure, a cross argent between ?.

Vatatzes Vert, a double-headed eagle displayed Or, above each head an estoile Argent. (Greece)

Vlasto Gules, three plates 2 and 1.

Vlattera Gules, 4 bends or.

See also: Byzantine heraldry : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_heraldry

mXEofMd.png

The "tetragrammatic cross", emblem of the Palaiologos dynasty from the mid-13th century

Crosses with firesteels have been used since Roman times, as symbols, but not as coats of arms or emblems.[2] Some historians connect it with the labarum, the Imperial flag of Constantine the Great (r. 306337).[2] In the 6th century the cross with four fields (with either letters or heraldry), tetragramme, appear on Byzantine coins.[3] The symbol was adopted by the First Crusaders since the first event, People's Crusade (1096).[3] Michael VIII Palaiologos (12611282) adopted the symbol when he resurrected the Byzantine Empire, with the initials (letters β) of the imperial motto of the Palaiologos dynasty: King of Kings, Ruling Over Kings (Greek: βασιλεὺς βασιλέων, βασιλεύων βασιλευόντων Basileus Basileōn, Basileuōn Basileuontōn).[3] It was used in flags and coins.[3] The symbol appear on the Imperial flag "Divelion" (διβελλιον), a naval war flag, used in front of all other banners, recorded by Pseudo-Kodinos (fl. 1347-1368) wrongly[4] as "a cross with fire-steels" (σταυρον μετα πυρεκβολων),[5] and depicted in the Castilian Conosçimiento de todos los reynos atlas (ca. 1350).[3][6] As Alexander Soloviev writes, the use of letters in western heraldry is non existent.[4] In the Middle Ages, both the Greek style, with "closed fire-steels" (β - B ), and the Serb syle, with "open fire-steels" (C - S), were used in Serbia.[4]

The four symbols surrounding the cross have thus been interpreted as either letters, or flints or firestones.

The eagles

yIpkP2R.png

The single-headed Roman imperial eagle continued to be used in Byzantium, although far more rarely.[3] Thus "eagle-bearers" (ὀρνιθόβορας), descendants of the aquilifers of the Roman legions, are still attested in the 6th century military manual known as the Strategikon of Maurice, although it is unknown whether the standards they carried bore any resemblance to the legionary aquilae.[4] On coins, the eagle ceases to appear after the early 7th century, but it is still occasionally found on seals of officials and on stone reliefs. In the last centuries of the Empire it is recorded as being sewn on imperial garments, and shown in illuminated manuscripts as decorating the cushions (suppedia) on which the emperors stood.[3]

The emblem mostly associated with the Byzantine Empire, however, is the double-headed eagle. It is not of Byzantine invention, but a traditional Anatolian motif dating to Hittite times, and the Byzantines themselves only used it in the last centuries of the Empire.[5] The adoption of the double-headed eagle has sometimes been dated to the mid-11th century, when the Komnenoi supposedly adopted it from Hittite rock-carvings in their native Paphlagonia. This, however, is clearly erroneous: although as a decorative motif the double-headed eagle begins to appear in Byzantine art during the 11th century, it is not securely attested in connection with the Emperor and his family until well into the 13th century, under the Palaiologan emperors.[6][7] Prior to that, in the late 12th and throughout the 13th century, the eagle was used in northern Syria and Upper Mesopotamia: the Artuqid sultans of Amida used it as their insigne, the coins of the Zengid dynasty sported it, and Saladin and the Seljuq sultan Kayqubad I likewise used it as a decorative motif in their buildings.[8]

The Palaiologan emperors used the double-headed eagle as a symbol of the senior members of the imperial family. It was mostly used on clothes and other accoutrements, such as the boots of Constantine XI Palaiologos, the last Byzantine emperor, recorded by George Sphrantzes. The only occasion it appears on a flag is on the ship that bore Emperor John VIII Palaiologos to the Council of Florence, as mentioned by Sphrantzes and confirmed by its depiction in the Filarete Doors of St. Peter's Basilica.[9][10] Within the Byzantine world, the eagle (gold on red background) was also used by the semi-autonomous Despots of the Morea and by the Gattilusi of @#$%s, who were Palaiologan vassals.[11][12] The double-headed eagle was used in the breakaway Empire of Trebizond as well, being attested imperial clothes but also on flags. Indeed, Western portolans of the 14th15th centuries use the double-headed eagle (silver/golden on red/vermilion) as the symbol of Trebizond rather than Constantinople. Single-headed eagles are also attested in Trapezuntine coins, and a 1421 source depicts the Trapezuntine flag as yellow with a red single-headed eagle. Apparently, just as in the metropolitan Byzantine state, the use of both motifs continued side by side.[13][14] Other Balkan states followed the Byzantine model as well: chiefly the Serbians, but also the Bulgarians and Albania under George Kastrioti (better known as Skanderbeg), while after 1472 the eagle was adopted by Muscovy and then Russia.[15] In Western Europe, the Holy Roman Empire likewise adopted the double-headed eagle in the mid-13th century, under Frederick II Hohenstaufen, and used it side-by-side with the single-headed version.[16]

The crescent moon rises again. (Eastern influence)

Another very Western design could be found on one of the now-demolished towers of the seaward walls of Constantinople, which had been restored by Andronikos II Palaiologos r. 12821328) and bore that emperor's emblem, a crowned lion rampant holding a sword.[29] Another example of the influence of the east was the frequent use of the star and crescent moon symbol, which appears on coins, military insignia and, perhaps, as a sometime municipal emblem of the imperial city. The symbol was clearly of eastern origin, dating from at least the second millennium BCE in Moab and Sumer.

It is known that Anna Notaras, daughter of the last Megas Doux of the Byzantine Empire Loukas Notaras, after the fall of Constantinople and her emigration to Italy, made a seal with her coat of arms which included Two Lions holding above the crescent a cross or a sword.[30]

Edited by Lion.Kanzen
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Hey everyone, I thought I'd help out here.

First, I need to know what Byzantine Era are we looking at? I'm thinking because your name is "1000 AD" we'd be talking the era of the Macedonian Emperors, and the height of the Thematic system. Also called the Byzantine Restoration.

The symbol of the Empire, overall, seems to have still been the Roman Labarum, i.e. Chi-Rho. It was in a much different style of course, but I will hunt down some images for you guys.

The Palaiologian Eagle and many of the other Heraldic symbols mentioned only date to the 13th century and onwards.

Edited by Flavius Aetius
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The idea from Millennium A.D. is that it is split up in 2 part just like the main game.

Part 1 goes from the Fall of the Western Empire till the Founding of the Holy Roman Empire. So 476 AD till 962 AD. That is the timespan we're looking at right now.

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Alright, Thematic byzantine is your best bet.

First, I should let you know that it wasn't called Byzantium, it was called the Βασιλεία Τοη Ρωμαίων (Basileia Toh Rhomaion) or the "Soverignity of the Romans."

Let's look at some Thematic Roman units:

Barracks Units:

Village Phase:

Ακριται (Akritai) - The Akritai were the descendants of the Late Roman Limitanei. They were professional soldiers whose purpose was to defend the borders of the Empire, but were given lands to maintain called Εκονομικαι (Ekonomikai). These men could be armored or unarmored, and were usually equipped with a medium or large ovoid shield, a spear, and javelins.

Like the Republican Roman units, they should gain armor as they gain experience. A Κλιβανίων or Lamellar cuirass would suffice.

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/7061/acritaefinalrs0.jpg

Ακοντισται (Javilenmen) - Akontistai were the descendants of the Roman Lanciarii that were stationed in the back of a Legion. Although the legion was no longer used, the Akritai still carried on this practice in order to make them more versatile to face a wider variety of foes. They have a bundle of javelins and a small or medium shield.

Like the Republican Roman units, they should gain armor as they gain experience. A gambeson would suffice.

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/8333/18542551.png

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/6199/52439774.png

Ιπποακριται (Hippoakritai) - These men are the same as the Akritai, but mounted. They were professional soldiers, and given lands to tend like the Akritai, but were more like screening cavalry than lance and bow cavalry. They were armed with a set of javelins, and a lance (κοντός or kontos), and a smaller cavalry shield.

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/3485/13a.png

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/927/13bv.png

Town Phase

Σκουτατοι (Skoutatoi) - The Skoutatoi were the descendants of the Late Roman Comitatenses, and were the standard line infantry of the Empire. They carried a large ovoid or kite shield and were either spearmen or swordsmen (for gameplay purposes I'd make the Akritai Spearmen and the Skoutatoi swordsmen). They were armored, professional soldiers, and did not tend lands like the Akritai.

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2263/26942752.png

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7572/34770726.png

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/1808/14a.png

Τοξοται (Archers) - These men are archers. Skoutatoi also had units of Akontistai, as a development of the late Roman practice, and archers as well. The Roman government also had several laws in place that stated cities were required to keep a garrison of Toxotae at all times. These men were armed with Turkish composite bows, although not nearly of the same quality as the ones that took 10 years to make. They also sometimes had a small shield.

Like the Republican Roman units, they should gain armor as they gain experience. A gambeson would suffice.

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/9894/cburtoxotai.png

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/4566/35547533.png

Κουρσορσες (Koursorses) - The Koursorses were lance-and-bow cavalry, equipped with a long lance called a Kontos and an Asymmetric horse bow. The Koursorses operated in tandem with the Defensorses, rushing out to attack and then retreating into the Δεφενσορσες (Defensorses) which the pursuing enemy would slam into, in a tactic modelled after the Alans (Ossetians).

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/9558/0013k.png

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=178552&d=1314215548

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9454/0011gq.png

Fortress Units:

Βαρανγιοι (Varangioi) - The Varangioi were the Varangian Guard, who were recruited from the Kieven Rus and later the Anglo-Saxons of England, many of whom fled to the Roman Empire after the Norman conquest of 1066. Not all Varangioi were in the Varangian Guard, many operated as professional soldiers who fought in the front line. Varangians had a full maile-hauberk, a one or two-handed bearded axe, and a large kite shield.

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/6116/varangianguardfinalch6.jpg

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/52/varangianguardug1finaluo7.jpg

Οπτιματοι (Optimatoi) - The Optimatoi were the elite cataphract corps stationed in the Thema Optimaton, the modern day provinces of Yalova/Kocaeli/Sakarya in Turkey. They were heavily armored versions of Καταφρακτοι (Kataphraktoi) called Κλιβανοφοροι (Klivanophoroi). The difference was that Kataphraktoi did not have an armored horse, while Klivanophoroi did, albeit both terms were interchangable. These men would have a partially or completely armored horse, and were armored head-to-toe in chainmail. They had a twohanded Kontos and a small shield affixed to their forearm.

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/2159/scholariifinal1ry3.jpg

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/6936/scholariifinal2qc7.jpg

http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/29/athanatoifinalik0.jpg

Images taken from the Complete Byzantine Unit Roster Project. They have a few errors, but are a darn good start. These images are just ideas for units, and not to be copied.

Edited by Flavius Aetius
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Thank you for driving this forward.

I will expect our tools being ready next week. Then I guess will two week heavy artwork to get Βασιλεία Τοη Ρωμαίων (Basileia Toh Rhomaion) in.

This is one of our priorities. We will speed up once I get my other projects done - may I fail or not - at the end I will drive some civiolisations forward with full force.

We could just create several factions even - if that appears as a more sensible solution to you. You're our master here and we will listen to your proposals to how best structure the time period from 500AD until 1500. You may break it even down into 3x3 faction.

3x 500..825AD

3x 850..1150AD (though this might be impossible due to the crusades. )

3x 1150..1500AD

It must not be that regular. I think it's fine to structure it just how it fits best into epochs.

You have free hand in how to arrange it.

Also if it's better to have 2 or 3 subfactions or only 1 for the beginning.

My intention is to let is develop like the hellenes, you start general and can specialise via research and cultural influences.

If you don't mind we would even invite you in The Council. Just like Mega Mania. I think you might discuss into new heights to the benefit of our planet.

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It would be best to have 1 faction for the first half, as the Thematic Byzantine system covers from 638 AD to 1045 AD.

The second half would pretty much also have one, which is the Pronoia system, which contained elements of the Theme system.

I'm continuing to edit the above post. Check back later tonight for pix.

We could use the Roman faction as a base, and use the Hellenes' recruitment tree probably.

Edited by Flavius Aetius
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Hephaestion, It is best to stick to two parts (First and second half of the Medieval Age) to not loose coherence with the other factions (Although there are currently only 2 WIP)

Edited by niektb
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Agreed.

I've finished the text part of the recruitment tree. For Heroes I recommend Heraklios, Basil II Boulgaraktonos, and probably one inbetween.

Thoughts on adding the Siphonatores (who used handheld Greek Fire throwers) to the game? I think Greek Fire would be significantly OP, although for the Byzantine Navy it would be a necessity.

I will draw some concept art for units. I'm good at drawing.

EDIT: Some shield patterns for the Skoutatoi we can use:

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/NDvictores.html

The Βικτορες (Victores) are last mentioned in Italy in 935 AD

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/MagisterPraesentalis2.html

The Φελικες Θεοδοσιακοι (Latin: Felices Theodosiaci). It is a unit last mentioned brigaded with the Victores in 935.

(it's on the List of shields, page 2 3rd row far right)

Edited by Flavius Aetius
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I think we're on a good way. Thx Niek. That's true. Everyone should feel free to correct me.

We have to use another logo than the Eagle or the Crescent +Moon then? As you said in the other topic:

The Image shown is not the same as the Greek Star and Crescent.

The Iota-Rho/Chi-Rho/Tau-Rho was the symbol of the Empire:

http://www.lycianturkey.com/images/kumluca-tr.jpg

http://test.classconnection.s3.amazonaws.com/336/flashcards/460336/jpg/justinianmural.jpg

We could also give the Constantinople extra status. Then we might be able to use those symbols too.

I've finished the text part of the recruitment tree. For Heroes I recommend Heraklios, Basil II Boulgaraktonos, and probably one inbetween.

gratitude. I have to get our research tool going.

Thoughts on adding the Siphonatores (who used handheld Greek Fire throwers) to the game? I think Greek Fire would be significantly OP, although for the Byzantine Navy it would be a necessity.

I would love to have them in. For the Rise of The East we also have a fire ship. So we will have to deal with fire and ship anyway.

What do you think about those, Niek? And how this would look? Perhaps we can use the fire javelins that are already ingame. For the ship we will see. Something like cannons is required for later ages too - so we should also deal with Naval Battles (as Genoa and other city states were quite active in this time weren't they? At least the crusaders had to be transported but that would be for part two).

So all research until now should focus on period 1 as stated by Flavius Aetius? Just for me to know.

Interesting shields. Should we even use one of those as civilisation logo? And late Roman here means the Eastern Romans?

Edited by Hephaestion
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The Chi-Rho was the most common used symbol, I suggest using that.

Greek Fire would be cool but no flaming javelins:

435539_greek-fire50_epsicuaitwlfo42x7yed

This is greek fire.

All research should now focus on part 1, that is best. (Maybe part 2 will be a mod for Empires Besieged?)

I leave the civilization logo to Lion... :)

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Greek Fire:

Well, it's one variant of Greek Fire. We don't know the actual composition but using different mixtures of components they had we can replicate the different effects of it.

We know it was a liquid, it mad a roaring noise, it billowed smoke and shot flames a great distance. It was also ignited by air and water intensified the flame.

We know it used Naptha, Tree Sap, and either left Calcium Carbonate (Rock Salt) as a byproduct or used it in the reactant formula. And we think it was a descendant of Sextus Julius Africanus's "Automatic Fire" which had been in use since Ancient Greece.

Greek Fire was used in two forms by infantry: siphons and hand grenades. It seems to have always been kept on hand at Constantinople, even after the loss of the areas that produced resources needed to make it. If I recall correctly, it was used in the final siege of Constantinople.

Chi Rho:

As for the Chi-Rho, it fits Byzantium perfectly.

As for the Shield Patterns:

When I say Late Roman, I mean (Both Halves) of the Roman Empire from 284-638 AD. When I say Rhomaion I mean "Byzantium" or Roman Empire from 638-1453 AD.

The Shield Patterns mentioned are both Eastern Roman in the Notitia Dignitatum (Dated 395).

A lot of units survived a long time. Legio IIII Parthica is last mentioned in 586. Legio V Macedonica is the longest lasting, last mentioned in Antipolis (just north of it's Garrison at Memphis) the 630's AD

Edited by Flavius Aetius
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Interesting. Thank you for clarying.

So let's call the civilisation Rhomaion then? Is this the generic name even? The specific name then will in Greek letters? Did the Eastern Roman then have two official languages, or is this only valid for the second phase. I should probably continue my efforts instead of harassing you with questions. So will I do then.

@Niek: I will try to get something like flamethrower done then. Just can't promise when, but will look at it.

Edited by Hephaestion
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The Romans basically converted entirely to Greek by the reign of Heraklios, whose death in 638 marks the end of the Classical Era.

Basileia toh Rhomaioi is just the spelling with English letters. That was the Greek word for the "Roman Empire"

Byzantine Siphon

http://pinake.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/fuego-griego-lanzador.jpg

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/hoplite14gr/byzantine%20weapons/IMG_0120.jpg

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Thx. Then it is clear, we can use it as the Specific name. While we use Byzantines as the Generic Name?

They had even ships over there. Good find:

IMG_0126.jpg

Or is it out of the timeframe. It's a little bit hard with images without caption.

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That's one reconstruction. There were a lot of types of Dromons and that one was designed to carry cargo, not as a warship. It's called a Khelandion and this is a better reconstruction of it:

http://www.navistory.com/pages/moyen-age/khelandion.php

This kind was made for naval combat:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-HzWWg50fW5U/UWJwWhnYNII/AAAAAAAARes/TdLHbluid2o/s1600/Dromon+(11).JPG

http://www.modelshipmaster.com/products/ancient/dromon/Dromon%20%287%29.JPG

http://www.modelshipmaster.com/products/ancient/dromon/Dromon%20%285%29.JPG

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That's one reconstruction. There were a lot of types of Dromons and that one was designed to carry cargo, not as a warship. It's called a Khelandion and this is a better reconstruction of it:

http://www.navistory.com/pages/moyen-age/khelandion.php

This kind was made for naval combat:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-HzWWg50fW5U/UWJwWhnYNII/AAAAAAAARes/TdLHbluid2o/s1600/Dromon+(11).JPG

http://www.modelshipmaster.com/products/ancient/dromon/Dromon%20(7).JPG

http://www.modelshipmaster.com/products/ancient/dromon/Dromon%20(5).JPG

Use the BBcode :) more easy to visualization

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Well done. This helps a lot. So now we could open a Task for the Ship. Thx. Will open two tickets. One for Dromon for Cargo and Dromon for Warfare.

khelandion.gif

[url=<url>][img=<img>][/url]
He wants us to see the webpage to have chance to research further I think.

Look here. Yet another view.

Byzantine_dromon_reconstruction.png

They apparently also used small ships or is this just an artistic freedom to not to have to paint the full size?

(Other than that I would love to have such small rowboats in. For landing on shallow coasts for example. And it would look nice. We could even have them on lakes.)

320px-Greekfire-madridskylitzes1.jpg

Edited by Hephaestion
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And it doesn't let me use image tags for whatever reason, but I would've used them if I could've used them.

Do you get some error message or something when trying to use them? Have you tried entering the image URLs in the box that pops up when you press the image button in the toolbar?

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