Formations in A18

[Pithawk]

I am very excited that formations will be back in A18. Unfortunately in the current state, formations are not quite there yet imo.

The amazing thing about formations is that units can be moved long distances without looking a like a bunch of ants making a B-line to the nearest dropped ice cream cone. This is a huge bonus that will improve gameplay immensely!!

However, the problem lies with attacking while in formation. When attacking (control + right click, right click, queued attacks with shift + right click), after every right click the units decide to reform which wastes movement (e.g. a unit decides to run away from his enemy to reform). This makes microing units with formations ‘on’ extremely impractical and even exploitable. Here’s an example why:

One trick I use for micro is to pull back units which are being damaged. Any units that are ‘locked on’ to attack these damaged units will follow them into my melee or oncoming ranged attack. The correct response of my opponent in this situation is to counter this micro trick with a control + right click to reset his units to attack the nearest enemies. But if my opponent has formations on, my micro trick exploits my opponent even more because units waste movement (and thus attack) by reforming their formation with every control + right click.

So, as far as I’m concerned formations are great until you decide to attack at which point they should be temporarily disabled for the selected group. Here’s the pseudo-code that I think might fix these issues:

Input: Select group

Input: Turn formation ON

Engine: Scan for input

Input: Attack (control + right click, right click, queued attacks with shift + right click)

Engine: Disable formation of selected group (or enable non-formation attack behaviour)

Engine: Perform attack(s)

Engine: IF(Input == right click (move) {

Re-enable formation

Move selected group

}

The only useful exception to this might be if one wished to keep a pack of archers in a tight formation to deter flanking melee attack. In this case, we might amend the above pseudo-code by adding:

IF(Stand ground behaviour = TRUE && Input: Attack) Skip formation disable (or enable non-formation attack behaviour),

directly before the Engine: “Disable formation” step.

The only caveat I can see to this is if disabling a formation causes units to move in any way, which would again waste movement.

Is anyone else noticing this during attack micro?

Thanks for reading Keep up the great work all !!

[iNcog]

what happens if you a-move units in two seperate formations? only melee and only ranged, for example

[scythetwirler]

That was the main reason why formations were disabled in A17. In A18, you can use a null formation to break formation so that you get the best of both worlds, depending on your playstyle (not that it solves the formations not working as intended).

[auron2401]

can we at least have the null formation as default? T.T
Or at least a toggle in options, having to set everything to null is annoying. Makes multi training military units a pain (instant form up, get stuck, do the formation dance on a tree!)

[Alekusu]

One trick I use for micro is to pull back units which are being damaged. Any units that are ‘locked on’ to attack these damaged units will follow them into my melee or oncoming ranged attack. The correct response of my opponent in this situation is to counter this micro trick with a control + right click to reset his units to attack the nearest enemies. But if my opponent has formations on, my micro trick exploits my opponent even more because units waste movement (and thus attack) by reforming their formation with every control + right click.

Pithawk, If your enemy use the halt button "H" instead of CTRL+right click do they go back to formation too ?

[Lion.Kanzen]

can we at least have the null formation as default? T.T

Or at least a toggle in options, having to set everything to null is annoying. Makes multi training military units a pain (instant form up, get stuck, do the formation dance on a tree!)

I agree with that, even I suggest the same before the patch was committed

[Pithawk]

Pithawk, If your enemy use the halt button "H" instead of CTRL+right click do they go back to formation too ?

Ah good point Alekusu. No, they don't. So therefore the correct counter is then "H" instead of "control + right click". Thanks

can we at least have the null formation as default? T.T

Or at least a toggle in options, having to set everything to null is annoying. Makes multi training military units a pain (instant form up, get stuck, do the formation dance on a tree!)

Agreed!

[Alekusu]

Ah good point Alekusu. No, they don't. So therefore the correct counter is then "H" instead of "control + right click". Thanks

No problem !

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

can we at least have the null formation as default? T.T

Or at least a toggle in options, having to set everything to null is annoying. Makes multi training military units a pain (instant form up, get stuck, do the formation dance on a tree!)

No, please no. Do not listen to this. The solution is to fix the movement behavior. Instead of endless fixing balance of an unfinished game the team should be fixing and tweak behavior like unit and group movement and adding all the promised missing feature. The instinct is to throw out the difficuult things, instead of making them great. This game have too much greatness in its potential for small vision.

Edited February 27, 2015 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[zzippy]

can we at least have the null formation as default? T.T

Or at least a toggle in options, having to set everything to null is annoying. Makes multi training military units a pain (instant form up, get stuck, do the formation dance on a tree!)

Yes, please yes. Do listen to this.

@thatlongtimelurkerusingastolenavatarclaimingtobesomeoneelsebuteverybodyknowsmakingajokeofhisself :

It would be really kind of you to learn the meaning of respect imho. And when you are done, go on with "consequence".

You permanently tell a team of volunteers, which makes a great job, what they have to to, how they have to do, when they have to do. Cuz viiiiiision. Yours.

A great German once said:

Who has visions needs a doctor.

This might not be always true, but for sure it sometimes fits.

[auron2401]

No, please no. Do not listen to this. The solution is to fix the movement behavior. Instead of endless fixing balance of an unfinished game the team should be fixing and tweak behavior like unit and group movement and adding all the promised missing feature. The instinct is to throw out the difficuult things, instead of making them great. This game have too much greatness in its potential for small vision.

As I was always @#$%ing telling people during the development of Natural selection 2, (i was PlayTester/moderator, kind of inactive now) It. Doesn't. Work. Like. That. Holy @#$%. This Stupid "don't make band-aids, FIX IT NOW STUPID" attitude you have, sir, is extremely Disrespectful to the team.

if you aren't going to be helpful, the door is that way. *points vaguely*

Just don't stand in the doorway, you block traffic.

Thank you.

Edit: Unless you have a fix to the painful pathfinding problem? Pathfinding is NOT EASY TO CODE. No sir-ee.

Edited February 27, 2015 by auron2401

[Stan`]

I must agree with him on one point though. Removing broken features is not good. (We lost stamina and morale and aura display because of that)

Now thing is formation are considered broken because they do not behave like they should. So making it possible for people to use them while you clearly state by making them null by default that it´s not fully functionnal is the best approach beside fixing them once and for all.

Now a defaut formation option in the game could be nice.

Please keep it civil though.

Edited February 27, 2015 by stanislas69

[auron2401]

I didn't say remove, i said bandaid it till it works again.
HAve it stay in, but the default formation for EVERYONE should be.. "no formation"
So when you train units, (say in 5 10's or 40's) they don't spawn, and start circle derping around said structure.

[Stan`]

I believe that´s the current state of things. Whats the issue of it being different to your liking ?(understand game option)

Edited February 27, 2015 by stanislas69

[feneur]

I must agree with him on one point though. Removing broken features is not good. (We lost stamina and morale and aura display because of that)

They were not removed in that sense/because of that reason though. Big parts of the game were rewritten and that meant that a lot, if not all, of the gameplay features were "removed". I can't remember morale having been implemented in my time with the project, so perhaps that was gone in an even earlier rewrite, but stamina and aura display were removed in the "simulation rewrite" Philip did a couple of years ago. That rewrite has, as far as I've understood it at least, has meant a lot to make development easier, and hopefully make the game run better.

[Stan`]

They were not removed in that sense/because of that reason though. Big parts of the game were rewritten and that meant that a lot, if not all, of the gameplay features were "removed". I can't remember morale having been implemented in my time with the project, so perhaps that was gone in an even earlier rewrite, but stamina and aura display were removed in the "simulation rewrite" Philip did a couple of years ago. That rewrite has, as far as I've understood it at least, has meant a lot to make development easier, and hopefully make the game run better.

Yeah, I understand I mean, it's Philip'

However, maybe someone should make sure that if it happens again, features are ported and not left out

[auron2401]

I believe that´s the current state of things. Whats the issue of it being different to your liking ?(understand game option)

It isn't like that, all units default to "Line" when trained in groups or moved in groups. and as formations are still..... well.... Not working as correctly as one could hope....

[Stan`]

okay this is maybe a "bug" that reenabling formations put back. They forgot to disable it

[niektb]

what auron actually means (I think) is to change the default formation into the 'no formation' button (rather than the box formation):

[Stan`]

Yeah I understood that. I also said since it´s not supported by the dev to make everything to no formation by default and allow the player to make the decision himself by giving the option if that doesnt cause desynch.