===[POLL]=== Seleucid Architecture Direction

[LordGood]

This should be interesting. Keep the source material in mind when voting, also keep in mind that there isn't a lot of source material.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Still many ways to make them Greek, but look with many differences than the current greeks.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

One point I would make is that the Ptolemaic architecture is currently inaccurate and should have far more Greek influence to it. Alexandria for instance, the pinnacle of the Hellenistic world, had practically no ethnic Egyptians and would have been very Greek in the style. As it looks now, the Ptolemaic buildings seem from the New Kingdom. Regardless of what can be said for architectural diversity, inaccuracy on that scale seems quite unacceptable I fear.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

One point I would make is that the Ptolemaic architecture is currently inaccurate and should have far more Greek influence to it. Alexandria for instance, the pinnacle of the Hellenistic world, had practically no ethnic Egyptians and would have been very Greek in the style. As it looks now, the Ptolemaic buildings seem from the New Kingdom. Regardless of what can be said for architectural diversity, inaccuracy on that scale seems quite unacceptable I fear.

I agree. Maybe have a Ptolemaic temple variation that is Greek. Also, isn't the military colony supposed to eventually look Greek (instead of like a mercenary camp)?

Edited December 30, 2014 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[LordGood]

I would again encourage everyone to vote and voice their opinion. The more feedback, and the sooner we get this out of the way, the better.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I agree. Maybe have a Ptolemaic temple variation that is Greek. Also, isn't the military colony supposed to eventually look Greek (instead of like a mercenary camp)?

no problem is a current task http://trac.wildfiregames.com/ticket/2214

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I would again encourage everyone to vote and voice their opinion. The more feedback, and the sooner we get this out of the way, the better.

Why is this a poll question? Should not the art lead determine direction of the game's art and ultimately the quality of the work?

[Lion.Kanzen]

for me need be have more Hellenistic, the Hellenistic is more decorated than City state style uses more capitels Corinthians, more relieves, more statues in buildings, specilly big one like CC or temples.

here are a tip:

The commemorative and retrospective character of the program and its general scheme of decoration are all very Greek; but the size, the formal elements, the concept, and the impression created are related to middle eastern architecture from Egypt and Persia

About Mauseleum Hallicarnasus

http://arts.muohio.edu/faculty/benson/Hellenism/hellenistic_architecture.htm

the Scheme can be Greek but the Concept can be Persian and Ethnic

Pergamon in particular is a characteristic example of Hellenistic architecture. Starting from a simple fortress located on the Acropolis, the various Attalid kings set up a colossal architectural complex. The buildings are fanned out around the Acropolis to take into account the nature of the terrain. The agora, located to the south on the lowest terrace, is bordered by galleries with colonnades (columns) or stoai. It is the beginning of a street which crosses the entire Acropolis: it separates the administrative, political and military buildings on the east and top of the rock from the sanctuaries to the west, at mid-height, among which the most prominent is that which shelters the monumental Pergamon Altar, known as "of the twelve gods" or "of the gods and of the giants", one of the masterpieces of Greek sculpture. A colossal theatre, able to contain nearly 10,000 spectators, has benches embedded in the flanks of the hill

The Seleucids (Seleucid kingdom) ruled the Eastern world as far as Persia, and under them the art of architecture in particular evolved in forms that would have an effect on Roman architecture. In Egypt the Ptolemies, at the new capital city that bore Alexander's name and was founded by him, built the famous lighthouse and library, and another important sculptural school developed there.

Alexander's aspirations and close knowledge of Eastern and Egyptian ways led the new rulers to take more seriously their roles of near divinity. This gave considerable impetus to the art of portraiture, since these rulers thus deserved commemoration as much as any god; in fact, even private citizens aspired now to some heroic status after death, so that portrait monuments for tombs and honorific statues became more common. Except for this growth of portraiture, however, the mood in the arts during the Hellenistic period was to intensify and elaborate styles developed by Classical Greece. Palatial architecture aimed at effects never contemplated hitherto; even domestic architecture for the first time had palatial pretensions. Trade and the newly acquired resources of the East opened up new possibilities for the artist, in both materials and inspiration; the results, however, generally tended to elaboration and grandeur such that the finer qualities of balance and precision characteristic of earlier periods are often difficult to discern in later works.

The two-storied stoa became an architectural form of importance, serving as hotel, emporium, or office block, and the design of central market and administrative areas depended largely on the disposition of such buildings. An Attalid king paid for a fine stoa for Athens's marketplace, recently restored; and his city of Pergamum seems to have been important in developing stoa design.

A few important examples of particularly original designs are the famous lighthouse (Pharos) of Alexandria (Pharos of Alexandria) with its tiers of masonry 440 feet (135 metres) high; the library of Alexandria; the clock house Tower of the Winds at Athens; monumental fountains and assembly halls; and a new elaboration of stage architecture for theatres, in which for the first time the acting took place on a raised stage. (In the 1990s, as the city of Alexandria prepared for major construction projects, layers of the ancient city were uncovered, including what are thought to be remnants of the Pharos of Alexandria.)

tended to a style that in many respects anticipates the Baroque. Slowly, too, the advantages of arch and vault, avoided hitherto by Greek architects, were exploited; architecture was still basically that of mass on mass, however, and it was left to Rome to make significant progress in construction methods.

http://universalium.academic.ru/292897/Western_architecture

HYBRIDISATION AND IDENTITY IN THE ART AND ARCHITECTURE OF THE HELLENISTIC EAST',

This is in part due to recent urbanization

of the area: Antioch’s modern reincarnation Antakya (Hatay province, southeast

Turkey) grows by the day at the expense of its ancient predecessor. Archaeological exploration of the relatively undisturbed site of Antioch in the 1930s unfortunately produced modest results, and in the intervening years it has seemed that the project of achieving a coherent understanding of the topography and architecture of the ancient metropolis had reached an impasse. Recent investigations of the Plain of Antioch (the Amuq) and the upper city (Mt. Silpius), however, offer a way forward; archaeological and architectural surveys

succeeded in illustrating Antioch’ several building programs and expansion

in the hinterlands during classical and late antiquity. What is more, this new

research makes it now possible to bring into focus Antioch’s Seleucid armature,

that is the unique coalescing of Mesopotamian and Greek urban designs within a single locus opera

ted by Seleucos Nicator’s founding agencies. I will highlight

the ways in which this project responded to a specific political agenda and how it was realized. Furthermore, I will investigate the possibility that these processes may have underpinned the forging of an Antiochene identity, rooted as it were in its Semitic and Hellenic past, and becoming one of the city's most remarkable identifiers.

The site of Dor is located on the southern Levantine coast, about 60 km south of Haifa and 70 km north of modern Tel Aviv. With its two natural harbors and seaward acropolis, Dor was an important port throughout much of its history. Modern exploration and excavation of the site began in 1980 and is ongoing; nearly thirty years of controlled excavation have afforded us one of the most complete pictures of an urban environment on the coastal Levant.

Following Alexander’s conquests, the port of Dor was first subject t

o Ptolemaic hegemony, then fell under Seleucid control, and finally became part of the Roman province of Syria; major settlement on the tell ceased sometime in the third century CE. Excavations in the southern and western areas of the tell have revealed a series of major changes in the character of the urban space throughout these periods. In the southern part of the tell overlooking the harbor, housing blocks established in the Persian period were replaced in the 3rd century BCE by a huge monumental complex of finely constructed walls built

using local techniques. Throughout the Hellenistic period this complex underwent modifications, and eventually two smaller monuments, possibly cultic, were constructed using Hellenic styles of masonry and architectural ornament hitherto unknown at Dor. By the Roman period this area was completely transformed: it lost its monumental character, and appears to have served as a residential and industrial zone (as indicated by kilns and a water supply system). The foundation walls of these Roman-era structures reused many architectural fragments from the previous era, including column drums, capitals, and stucco moldings, perhaps pointing to a major destructive even.

his paper summarizes our current understanding of the evidence of urban development at Dor; relates the evolving cultural character of the building activity (in particular the introduction of Hellenic architecture) to wider Levantine trends; and presents possible explanations for the metamorphosis of monumental space, considering to what extent it can be explained by the known political and cultural history of Dor and the southern Levant as presented in the written sources.

Hellenistic and Roman Agorai in Pisidia: Public Squares for Barbarians?

As Alexander the Great conquered the heartland of Anatolia, the former Persian region of Pisidia came under Greek rule. One of the most striking manifestations of this new era is the development of agorai In Classical Antiquity, these squares were the centres of public life, as meeting places were a necessity for debate, commerce and festivals. They provide valuable evidence on shifting values as expressed through space and monuments and illustrate strongly the evolution in use of public space. Most published agorai of Pisidia provide plenty of archaeological evidence from the early Hellenistic to the Roman Imperial period, a period during which they developed from open squares on the mountain promontories to enclosed structures where local elite displayed their status towards fellow members of the elite, lower citizenry and visitors. In this paper, Pisidian agorai

(350 BC–AD 300) will be for the first time the object of a comparative study. Through these comparisons, we will try to assess whether Pisidia was really the barbarous region for which it was held by ancient authors such as Arrian, Polybius and Livy.

The agora of Seleucia on the Tigris was brought to light in the 1970s by an Italian expedition in the northern part of the city. Along the open square were found a Greek theatre in the North, a long stoa in the East, shops and workshops in the South and, most interestingly, a huge public building housing the municipal archive in the East. Later on, after the Parthian conquest of the city in the mid-2nd century B.C.E. and the burning of major public buildings, the area was occupied by domestic and artisanal constructions. It is therefore particularly interesting to draw a two-steps comparison of these public spaces. First we shall look at the original organization of the Agora in these two Seleucid foundations and at the way they associate Hellenic characteristics and indigenous Mesopotamian features. In a second part, we will studytheir evolution after the cities’ conquest by Arsacid Parthians in the late 2nd century B.C.E., in the light of the demographic and political changes in Parthian Mesopotamia and the indigenization of the Greco-Macedonian poleis.

The Babylonian city Uruk was one of the very few old cities in Mesopotamia that continued and even prospered after the Macedonian conquest. At first glance Uruk does not look like a city where any Greco-Macedonians would have lived. Despite this, the textual and archaeological evidence indicate that not only did persons with Greek names live in the city,the Seleukid kings controlled the administration and were responsible for the erection and renewals of large temple complexes. The temple complex to the Babylonian god Anu and his consort Antum, called Bit rēŝ, was inaugurated in 244 BC. During the following period several renewals of the existing sanctuaries in the city were undertaken by local governors with close connections to the Seleukid kings. The architecture of the temples was drawing on an ancient Babylonian tradition. Bit rēš, which was designed from scratch, was built of unbaked and glazed bricks in colourful schemes that recall Nebuchadnessar II’s Ĭstar gate in Babylon from ca.575 BC. Changes in the pantheon and cultic traditions of Uruk were also happening during this period. The previously all important Ĭstar-cult was increasingly being subjugated to the male god Anu, which had become the most important deity in the city. My paper will discuss how we might interpret the temples in Hellenistic Uruk in their context as Seleukid building programme in a city of no particularly strong Greco-Macedonian presence in the Seleukid kingdom

.

http://www.academia.edu/3523428/FROM_PELLA_TO_GANDHARA_HYBRIDISATION_AND_IDENTITY_IN_THE_ART_AND_ARCHITECTURE_OF_THE_HELLENISTIC_EAST_An_international_academic_conference_held_at_the_University_of_Oxford_on_2nd_May_2009

Edited December 30, 2014 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

I found some large article. about Hellenism in East and I paste about the Architecture hybrization.

Alexander himself promoted the idea of 'blending' Greek and Achae- menid elements. This was expressed late in his campaign, in 324, by his public prayer for 'harmony and partnership in rule between Macedonians and Persians'. A physical expression of this may have been the gigantic memorial he is said to have raised at Babylon for his deceased Companion Hephaestion, comprising a towering five- storey platform, probably evoking the Mesopotamian ziggurats, with both Greek and Persian weapons placed at the top; it suggests a building of Babylonian type decorated with Greek and Persian weaponry.

Some of his coins also provide further instances of Achae- menid motifs. Thus his remarkable continuation of darics and double- darics (and probably sigloi also), but with slightly hellenised designs, provides examples of items appropriate to one culture being produced in the style of the other. Others show this even more clearly, for example the Persic-weight coins of Tarsus, and the light-weight 'lion staters' minted at Babylon by the satrap Mazaeus (Hamilton 1973, 133-4, 144, 146; Bellinger 1963, 61-76, esp. pi. 3, nos.1,3,4,6). Thus Alexander fostered architectural and artistic production of three kinds: Greek, some carefully selected eastern types and some of Greek with non-Greek styles of the same kind that had existed already in the Achaemenid empire.Seleucus I was responsible for the foundation of cities, often given dynastic names and using the Hippodamian grid-plan of streets, most notably with his two new capitals of Seleucia-Tigris (founded c. 305-301 bc) and north Syrian Antioch-Orontes, perhaps established towards 300 bc; under his rule another north Syrian grid-plan town was founded, Dura-Europus on the Euphrates (c. 300 bc?), which boasted ashlar outer wall foundations (fig. 4). It may also have been Seleucus who laid out the settlement at the junction of the Kokcha and Oxus rivers in northern Afghanistan, the ancient name of which is as yet unknown. The site is therefore called by its modern name, Ai Khanum. It had many Greek architectural features from this period: the street plan, walls, acropolis, propylaea and chamber-like Heroon of Kineas, who was probably responsible for the installation of the earliest stage of Macedonian settlement there. Perhaps also of this period are early phases of forts established on the Arabian coast of the Gulf (see Salles, above pp. 85; lOOff) and the first phase of the Greek theatre built at Babylon (cf. Sherwin- White, above pp. 20-1; Van der Spek, above p. 65). Seleucus ordered a statue, which later became famous, from the sculptor Eutychides of Sicyon to personify the Good Fortune (Tyche) of one of his capitals, Antioch-Orontes, a piece now known only in Roman copies. Seleucus, like other hellenistic kings, commissioned portrait sculptures of himself; none has certainly survived although some scholars have identified a bronze head now in Naples as Seleucus on the basis of profile heads on his coins. A Greek palmette funerary stele, possibly Athenian, was imported into Sidon. Other work in Greek style, more important for our enquiry, was executed within the Seleucid realm. Greek pottery types and shapes now influenced local pottery production in the Seleucid empire (see Hannestad 1983). The plain limestone sarcophagus of Kineas, at Ai Khanum, has a gabled lid which is typically Greek.eleucus, like Alexander, continued the restoration of the great sanctuary of Marduk at Babylon, as Babylonian documents and historical texts inform us. At Persepolis, a curious building was constructed below the platform of the now ruined Achaemenid palace. This is the so-called 'Fratadara' temple, the plan of which follows a late Achaemenid architectural development, i.e. a 'Centralised Square Hall' with four columns forming a central square and surrounding corridors. On each of the two surviving door-jambs is carved a full- size figure in relief, representing on one side a prince (?) in Iranian dress holding a ritual bundle of rods ('barsom'), and on the other a princess (?).To the early period belong an imposing colonnaded court, corridors and rooms. The peristyle court, and much architectural decoration, are Greek in origin. But there are non-Greek features: the use of the court as a passageway, of flat roofing, of Persian-type limestone column bases, whose orthogonal planning and associated corridors recall Assyrian and Persian palace designs, and particularly the so-called Harem of Xerxes at Persepolis. This palace, at a provincial city, presumably echoes still grander examples in the cities, now lost. Its scale, and reminiscences of Persian predecessors,as the excavator pointed out, illuminate hellenistic royal ideology: its blending of Greek and Achaemenid imperial styles symbolised both the change wrought by conquest and the political traditions to which it was heir. This was further expressed by those of Seleucus' coins which continue Alexander's series of darics and double darics, and of lion staters, although by Antiochus I's reign this series was no longer produced. 6 To sum up, the same kinds of artistic production continued under and were encouraged by Seleucus: selected Greek, Mesopotamian and Achaemenid elements and the development of the new style which combined Greek and a variety of local artistic traditions. The juxtapo- sition of Greek and Achaemenid elements is exemplified in the Ai Khanum palace, while an interchange of styles appears in the darics; and actual blending occurs in the Ai Khanum palace layout and the lion stater coins.    

The third and early second centuries BC Antiochus I (281/0-261 bc) created a still partly extant and huge earthwork at Merv to defend the central Asian province of Margiane from the raids of nomads. Under him and his successors in the third century more Greek-style work was produced. At Dura-Europus in north-east Syria the 'Redoubt' and 'Citadel' palaces were of Greek type with colonnaded ('peristyle') court. The earliest sanctuary of Artemis, of the third or second century, consisted of a cut-stone court with a colonnade in the Doric order and an altar, possibly recalling a Greek parallel in the Delphinium at Miletus. At Seleucia-Tigris, a small building interpreted as a Heroon may have been first erected at this time. Work on the forts and staging-posts of the Persian Gulf continued, such as Qala'at al-Bahrain and the island of Failaka. Here by c. 250 bc the fortified enclosure had two partly ashlar temples of Greek type, one Doric, with a circular stone altar in front, and the other Ionic. The latter had two porch columns between projecting spur walls and thus in antis (but with bell-shaped Persian-style bases) and a rectangular stone altar before it. At Bactra (Balkh), perhaps the capital of the satrapy, a hellenistic level has been located at the Bala Hisar mound, which functioned as the acropolis. At Ai Khanum, an ashlar fountain was built by the Oxus river c. 250 bc and the lower city rampart was refurbished about then. Further evidence for extensive building activity includes limestone Corinthian column bases of c. 250-200 bc in the palace, a gymnasium perhaps dating to this period, and a Greek theatre, albeit with mud-brick seating, in use c. 225-150 

Work in accordance with the various local traditions continued throughout the third century. In Mesopotamia, houses and tombs of Babylonian types continued to be built. At Uruk, vigorous and creative use was made of old Babylonian religious architectural forms, as local documents and excavations testify. A towering platform (ziggurat) 

Other buildings showed a blending of styles. At the capital, Seleucia- Tigris, an administrative building incorporated two suites of seven rooms each with central columns and doors in the short sides remi- niscent of Achaemenid 'centralised square' designs. On Failaka some architectural decoration of Greek derivation, including palmette temple roof ornaments (acroteria), was treated in a stylised fash- ion; the palace of Ai Khanum had an 'orientalised' Corinthian order (c. 250-200 bc) and palmette roof decoration used in a non- Greek way. The Parthians, too, made use of this 'blended' style, as ...

is exemplified by a temple-like mausoleum on the site of New Nisa which had a frontal colonnade with thin columns on step- ped Persian-type bases and unusual Ionic capitals of the variety sometimes called 'watchspring' from the spiral character of the volutes.

Other structures mixed traditional elements with Greek. At Babylon, houses of Mesopotamian plan very occasionally incorporate a Greek columned (peristyle) court. The open Greek market place (agora) at Dura Europus, after the Parthian takeover (by c. 113 bc), was gradually filled with little, densely packed shops, and so became more like a covered market. In west Iran, the basically open-air religious terraces of Khurha and Kangavar, perhaps of this period, acquired some notable features

http://archive.org/stream/HellenismInTheEast_201302/Hellenism%20in%20The%20East_djvu.txt

[LordGood]

Excellent sleuthing, Lion

Why is this a poll question? Should not the art lead determine direction of the game's art and ultimately the quality of the work?

Pretty sure Enrique would be ok with this stylistic approach, or so it would seem last I saw. He hasn't been around lately. Best let him enjoy his winter holiday.

There was a similar argument earlier that never got resolved. I want to get a feel for what you guys want before I start throwing work at nothing. A poll is quicker and more painless than letting dissent seep out of the woodwork.

I need quick and painless because I'm going back to school soon, and I'll have to push 0 AD to the side once again,

though oddly enough, this even dispersal across the poll board isn't really giving me a definitive answer yet.

[Stan`]

Offtopic

Hey Lordgood what happened to Enrique ? I haven't seen him criticize my work and yours in a while.

/Offtopic

About your poll. I was wondering if you could make less detailed houses. I mean that they look like great houses for rich people, but I believe not every settlers has the ability to build such beautiful buildings.

[tomySVK]

I think the Seleucid buildings should look with much more Greek influance as it´s now with some local eastern elements. The best example is the AI Khanoum site, the city there was founded by Antiochos I and it was destroyed around 140´s BC, so there should be no later Roman and Parthian influence. The various structures have perfectly Hellenistic elements, some other integrating elements of Persian architecture.

Here is a video reconstruction of the city made on French excavations. I hope it will be help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyap-dAjJ6M#t=99