Suggestions for 0 A.D.

[Caesar]

Dont worry, I am trying to be as secular as I can on this article. Just so you you know I am Roman Catholic, but I will make this as unbiased as I can.

Christianity played a major role in the the late Roman empire, so it only makes sense that an article on Christianity be in the WFG history archives.

Just so you know, the article will have three parts- Part One will be the Life of Christ, and Part Two is the Begining of Christian ity under the Apostles (the death of Christ in 32 AD to the Cruxcifiction of Peter in 67 AD), and Part Three will be the Early Church until Constantine. I have Part One done, and it is about 1000 words.

Edited June 10, 2005 by Caesar89

[Mythos_Ruler]

About the Greco-Roman article - perhaps an article detailing the *differences* between the two. There had been much discussion in the AOMH forums regarding the Roman mythology and how it was (dis)similar to the Greek mythology. There is even a really good "Roman Civilization" mock-up for AOM written up in the "Future ES Games" forum at AOMH (or AOE3H now, I think) that stresses the miniscule and vast differences between the mythologies.

Certainly the differences in the organization of the religion are vast. To my knowledge Rome never had its equivilent to Delphi or Mt. Olympus. The role of priests and the clergy was different as well (depending on the city-state), as was the role of worship.

[Belisarivs]

My questions:

Will there be turtle formation, phalanx formation (with pikes used as some protection against arrows), wedge formation .... , which would give some bonuses to units (better protection/worse attack and vice versa?

Will archers be able to fight melee (British Longbowmen were quite well known for that skills).

Perhaps I want too much things, but stamina and different speeds for walk/run/charge would be welcomed.

Also ability to patrol on walls could be cool.

[Vingauld]

My questions:

Will there be turtle formation, phalanx formation (with pikes used as some protection against arrows), wedge formation .... , which would give some bonuses to units (better protection/worse attack and vice versa?

Will archers be able to fight melee (British Longbowmen were quite well known for that skills).

Perhaps I want too much things, but stamina and different speeds for walk/run/charge would be welcomed.

Also ability to patrol on walls could be cool.

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Wasn`t the tutle formation IMPERIAL roman,if yes,then it shouldn`t be in, right?

And about the walls,i believe there has been said inthe FAQ that walls will not be walkable, so patrollable walls probably won`t be in

[Belisarivs]

OK I've read FAQ, but I didn't remember everything.

And what about other questions?

Point of my question about formations wasn't if there will be testudo or not, but if these will have affect on soldiers stats.

BTW, I've read in FAQ, that there won't be movies in game, because most (if not all) media formats are patented (requiring a paid license to encode movie files), closed-source, royalty-taxed, and/or platform bound.

AFAIK xvid lacks these disadvantages.

Edited June 20, 2005 by godlike

[Argalius]

Movies take up quite some space, space that all should be downloaded...

[Centurion_13]

Formations are planned to play a vital role in gameplay. useing formations wisely can give you a significant advantage.

[Belisarivs]

Movies take up quite some space, space that all should be downloaded...

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Agreed. I expected it, it is also a lot of additional work .... I undertand it.

[Belisarivs]

Formations are planned to play a vital role in gameplay. useing formations wisely can give you a significant advantage.

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Thanx for answer. And what about Units able of both, melee and ranged attack?

What about stamina? Unit which will run will loose it, unit which will stand will regenerate it and walking unit will neither lose it nor regenerate it.

It shouldn't be such problematic to implement it I think (but I might be wrong as I'm not experienced programmer).

Edited June 20, 2005 by godlike

[Paal_101]

Testudo is in, it is a Roman formation that was in use long before the Empire. Other formations include the phalanx, sparabara, and syntagma. Should be fun

Archers will not fight as melee units unfortunately

[Belisarivs]

Archers will not fight as melee units unfortunately

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What are these formations doing - sparabara, and syntagma?

What about wedge?

And will it be possible to make unit able of melee and ranged attack. I'd love to have Kataphraktoi in the game.

Edited June 20, 2005 by godlike

[tauhammerhead]

Will friendly fire be included? As if you fire arrows into your own troops in combat against the enemy would it kill them and some of the enemy or just kill the enemy? In EMPIRE EARTH you could shoot past your troops and not kill them but in games like Cossacks 2 you have to be very careful of your own troops firing. Just a question, probably already been asked.

[Phoenix-TheRealDeal]

Citizen Soldiers comprising the majority of your pop are 'trained' to use a specific weapon and type of attack whereas Super Units who are limited in number and don't become available until the City Phase will be able to fight either ranged or melee (you might think of thems as being the 'professional soldiers', you know, the special retainers of 'the king' or the Chief). Both CSs and SUs therefore have a dual role that they can play in the game. But you may not understand that unless you note that CS soldiers are also 'econ units' that, depending upon their class, have certain econ roles to play... as far as battles are concerned you might think of them as being the available pool of 'conscripts' that are taken out of the 'polis' population when it is time to go to war (and this makes a great deal of sense with respect for the historical perspective). So, here you see that both kinds of units can 'morph' from one state to another or back-and-forth (as commanded or automatically depending upon the 'situation') as needs be during the course of a game session.

Wrt to formations, unlike the predecessor games in the Age series which the design for this game has been largely based upon that gave no particular benefit to placing troop units into formations and instead just increased 'micro' (even if seen by some as being a 'neat' thing to do), the use of the various formationos (allotted to the civs as appropriate) will bring the civ in play a decided advantage against troops that are not so organized for battle. On the one hand we intend to make it 'easy' to place units into formations (or break them up and reconstitute if desired), on the other the AI is also going to 'know' of the benefit to be derived... so the human player even in a game against comp(s) is going to want to make use of formation during gameplay though in the past most didn't.

Wijitmaker has said many times and it is so stated in our documentation of the website that while we want to remain as faithful as possible to the historical reality of the times (to the extent that we can learn about that) that the game itself is not to be a historical simulation... but a game. Therefore we developing it keep in our hands some measure of 'license' to do a few things 'differently' than you might suppose (and good history knowledgeable fans WILL most likely howl about it) if it can be seen as enhancing gameplay. I mention it because you've mentioned Testudo. While in point-of-fact we are moreso modelling on the Camillian Reformed Roman Army, you may very well see Testudo be a 'tech' available to the Romans in 0ad Part 1.... the reason being is that it adds some differentioation, or another element of that, in gameplay between the civs.

It is difficult in some cases NOT to make some of the civs carbon-copies of one another while at the same time addressing a broad-range of their then held capabilities... without merging over into the realm of 'fantasy' which we do not want to do. So, once in a while we may stretch it a bit for the sake of gameplay (while our WFG cohorts in TLA have license to be just as fantastical as they'd LIKE to be).

Actually, when you think on it for a bit, you can see why that's not such a 'bad' idea here. Though we say that we are building a game around 0ad (a time that in fact never was) and that these first 6 civs mainly came earlier than that point-in-a-timeline historically, the manner in which we are approaching the game is NOT in that typically seen as having to advance 'through the ages'.

It's true that 'we' advance, but only in the sense of that we start somewhere (on a game map) with a few 'people' in the Village Phase to build up the village(s) and abilities of the villagers (though we DO NOT call them that).

Our premise then is that as we go along (and as THEY go along... through the fruits of our/their labours)... skills and knowledges are acquired as well as more 'units' that permit them to turn their villages into towns (or build more of them), thus we advance them to the Town Phase.

This process repeats until they indeed reach the City Phase where, for them, they can acquire the greatest degree of technological achievment and skill that becomes available to them as well as all of their cultural characteristics (whatever provided by the design limitations placed upon that 'civ').

So you see, we step-through a process during gameplay of building up 'a people' who would have lived back-in-the-day of that time, but we do not necessarily follow along an historical time-line.

There is the possiblity of an exception, of course. If one is to deveop a scenario or a campaign then one can stage it so that indeed that form of the game then does follow along some 'period' of a timeline. In that context we'll provide for a campaign or so, and then our fanbase will have AMPLE opportunity to be creatiing all manner of such things with the ScnEd (to include even the most 'fantastical' should any desire to do so).

I hope this sorta clarifies some of the philosophy behind what we've been working toward doing with this game for the past several years... and when we started out with it we either felt or KNEW that some of our ideas were unique to RTS game dev... though the commercial element has 'caught up' with some of those since and our own 'limitations' preclude us form doing some of the things they've learned to do in the interim.

However, we have never really been in competition with them, we've just always wanted to make a game that WE wanted to play that would hopefully also be fun for others to play, too... and that is the basis for the thing being FREE as well. We ARE getting there.....

[Lord Zorinthrox]

Archers will not fight as melee units unfortunately

What do you mean by this statement? Not the obvious part, but does this mean:

A: You will not make melee-capable archers because the engine mechanics won't let you (i.e., you can not assign two attacks of different damage types and ranges to a unit entity)

OR

B: You will not make archers melee-capable for game ballance issues (e.g. it would skrew up game play if you could raid with Archers alone, and the enemy would have not way to repel the attack efficiently).

[Caesar]

Speaking of archers, I would just like to bring up an interesting point that I brought up a while ago- How about restricting the amount of arrows that an archer can fire, before they have to 'reload'?

[Mythos_Ruler]

How would you handle this "reloading" action without adding too much micro or unnecessary movement?

[Caesar]

What I was suggesting was that archers can fire for several minutes, with a bar under their icon that grudualy gets lower. After a fe minutes they "run out of arrows" and cannot fire again for another few minutes. Archer technologies can lengthen the time they can fire, and/or shorten the reloading time.

@Paul, I sent you the first part for my Rise of Christianity article, so you can post it if there are no problems. There has been a delay with the Part Two, so you should get that sometime next week. Sorry for the delay.

Edited June 26, 2005 by Caesar89

[Paal_101]

No problem John Really enjoyed the first one

[Phoenix-TheRealDeal]

Lord Zorinthrox,

Answer = C.

Citizen Soldiers comprising the majority of your pop are 'trained' to use a specific weapon and type of attack whereas Super Units who are limited in number and don't become available until the City Phase will be able to fight either ranged or melee (you might think of thems as being the 'professional soldiers', you know, the special retainers of 'the king' or the Chief). Both CSs and SUs therefore have a dual role that they can play in the game. But you may not understand that unless you note that CS soldiers are also 'econ units' that, depending upon their class, have certain econ roles to play... as far as battles are concerned you might think of them as being the available pool of 'conscripts' that are taken out of the 'polis' population when it is time to go to war (and this makes a great deal of sense with respect for the historical perspective). So, here you see that both kinds of units can 'morph' from one state to another or back-and-forth (as commanded or automatically depending upon the 'situation') as needs be during the course of a game session.

Citzen Soldiers = CS = are either ranged (shooters, throwers) or melee (hacker) units.... depending on the classes authorized to a given civ. As indicated above, they may also be employed at econ tasks depending upon what their category is--foot or mounted.

Super Units = SU = are the limited number of 'professional soldiers you'll be able to train in City Phase of the game. THEY can fight either melee (hack) or ranged (shoot, throw). THEY do not have an econ role that they can play in the game.

Types of melee units = Swordsman, Spearman (foot or cav)

Types of ranged units = Javelinist, Archer (foot or cav) Slnger (foot only)

It really doesn't have to do much with what the engine could be made to do or not but Time. That is the time that it takes to render changes in units 'on the fly' during gameplay. Then how we wanted to utilize that time for purposes of gameplay... . so this is what we came up with.

If we have a unit, and lets use a CS unit for purpose of illustration, and lets say that he is classed as an archer, OK. CS archer (foot, as opposed to cav). This archer is not only a soldier, citizen soldier in this case, but he is or can also be a worker. For this type of unit you could assign your archer dude to mining of ore, quarrying of stone, cutting of wood, farming, or tending to domestic animals. you could also have him building structures or repairing structures. Our CS foot archer thus has a dual role military and civilian that he can perform in the game.

Let's go on to say that you train this here CS foot archer and first 'put him to work' chopping wood. He's going to be wearing some kind of a uniform but while chopping wood he'll be busily hacking away at a tree using a tool... and doing animatedly whatever it is that woodchoppers do while chopping wood. However, IF you pull hiim off of chopping wood and don;t assign him immediately to another econ/support type job, then he readies himself for war. He morphs (changes) then from a dude holding a tool (axe?) to a dude bearing his arms (bow and arrows). Furthermore, IF while chopping wood an enemy comes withiin his LOS, he will 'drop the tool', 'grab his arms' and fight back.... without you having to micro him to do that (no wimpy villys in this game).

This is probably the hardest concept for people to catch into mind about 0ad... not having seen it in previous RTS games where 'villagers' and 'warriors' have always been separate entities... however, it has been an integral part of our 'core' concept for 0ad from the beginning.

We might have decided to do more with it, but thought that this is an 'efficient' way to go that really allows for a lot of versatility in playing the game... a lot of 'options' for what the gamer might want to do (or for programming the AI for that matter, too).

We then 'followed through' with the Super Units, but instead of giving them a 'tool to weapon change' (or back) they'll get a weapon to weapon change... as they'll each (depending on who and what they are) have the use of a ranged weapon while at a distance and a melee weapon at contact. In the case of the SUs, the ranged weapon could be arrow and the melee sword (but again depending upon what and who the unit is as to exactly WHAT the two weapons will be.

Now, to forestall the next question being asked again because it has been brought up for the Romans more than once.. NO, Roman CS units will not be armed with multiple weapons like pilums AND swords... they are CS and they have an econ role to perform, and trying to program to change between more than two 'states' get computationally very expensive rapidly.

So, (continuing to use Romans as an example) if YOU WANT pilumists you train soe Roman pilumists (class CS foot javelinist) Hastati, if YOU WANT swordsmen you train some swordsmen (class CS foot swordsman) Principe, if YOU WANT spearmen you train some spearmen (class CS Speaman) Triari, then you can put them into a line facing formation (a good idea because uinits are stronger in a constituted formation) and they will 'fall in' where they 'should be' (though upon closing to contact the pilumists will still be 'throwing' while the swords would 'move up'...if we can get ti to all work out right. IF you, the ROMAN player also wanted to have 'velites', then you could just train more CS foot javelinists and put them wherever you want them relative to the rest of the cohort into a 'skirmish' type formation. And again, if we can get it to work out rightly they will have some AI properties that will make them act as skirmishers. And if we can't, then you may have to just micro your formations about the battlefied... two, or perhaps three if you also have a cavalry troop 'waiting' on the wings.

Now a Super Unit, which is limited in number as to how many you can have in the game at any one time and only having attained the City Phase of play... is just that, one macho hombre.. 'Macho hombre' makes me think of Spanish and thus Iberians, so I'll use that as example of an SU. Each civ has two different classes of SU, both a foot one and a cavalry one (except for one civ's lil surprise). An SU can't do nothing but FIGHT (or things related to fighting)... so they are 'the pros' on the battlefield, and in part because they are so tough that is why their number is limited. For the Iberians these guys would be the veterans who served in faraway foreign wars and returned home highly skilled 'to tell about it' and to serve their people in time of need. An Iberian foot SU is armed with both a javelin and a sword, so he can fight to the limits of his throwing range or close up hacking in contact with the enemy... just in case ya missed that in the above.

Tentatively you are only going to be able to train 12 SUs, but you could train them in any combo of the 2 kinds... 6 foot and 6 cav, 3 and 9 or 9 and 3 (or any mix or ALL of one or the other (again, your choice to be made depending upon what you might wanna do with 'em).

Does that help explain ii?

If this were an FPS with few units we could have them armed and fighting with any number of weapons, but it isn't... it's an RTS with the potential for many units on the screen at the same time.... so we figure this is about the best that we can do with respect to the issue of wanting a given unit to be able to do different things.

[Phoenix-TheRealDeal]

tauhammerhead,

Will friendly fire be included?

Probably not.

Caesar89,

What I was suggesting was that archers can fire for several minutes, with a bar under their icon that grudualy gets lower. After a fe minutes they "run out of arrows" and cannot fire again for another few minutes. Archer technologies can lengthen the time they can fire, and/or shorten the reloading time.

Too programming intensive for 'just archers'. We have another idea that we MAY be able to 'pull off' that is tied to a 'skirmish line' formation type.... that would be appropriate to javelinists, slingers, or archers. The concept is that as the skirmish line is sent into 'attack' mode, ti would advance to within range, throw-sling-fire several 'missiles' and then auto-retreat somewhat back out of range... thus simulating a reload process, then if still having been attack as the last command advance-repeat-rinse. If being advanced upon itself, then it might not have time to advance again but merely fire then retreat (running battle sort of thing)... and of course the case might present that the skirmish line could be 'run down' by faster units such as cav if not pulled out of the line in a timely manner or given some other means of protection. Anytway, that's the way in which we've perceived that we MIGHT be able to do it. We'll see.

[tauhammerhead]

is it fesible that it could be implemented in say a mod?

[Phoenix-TheRealDeal]

I wouldn't know that, pardner. Although anything that can be done in the 'regular game' could be done in the ScnEd.

[tauhammerhead]

cool, a cossacks style game but in those times would be awesome i think

[Belisarivs]

The concept is that as the skirmish line is sent into 'attack' mode, ti would advance to within range, throw-sling-fire several 'missiles' and then auto-retreat somewhat back out of range... thus simulating a reload process, then if still having been attack as the last command advance-repeat-rinse.  If being advanced upon itself, then it might not have time to advance again but merely fire then retreat (running battle sort of thing)... and of course the case might present that the skirmish line could be 'run down' by faster units such as cav if not pulled out of the line in a timely manner or given some other means of protection.

Wouldn't be better to make skirmish mode like in MTW? Way of attacking wasn't used often, because archers were usually protected by other units.

In MTW archers usually fire at the enemy, but try to hold distance. This would be extremely useful for archers mounted on horseback.

[Belisarivs]

Phoenix-TheRealDeal, I understood it. Citisen Soldier will be able to fight and farm (and do other villager like stuff) whileSuper Units will be dedicated to warfare, but Zorinthrox didn't ask for that. I'm also interested in question he posted.

Example:

Archer will fire at the enemy, but when enemy approaces to close and will be too fast (so there won't be any hope for archer to flee) will archer be able to switch to some sword and defend himself? Primary role of archers would and should be ranged attack, but they should be useful as last resort melee infantry.