warfjm Posted December 16, 2013 Report Share Posted December 16, 2013 I finally managed to win a game against the AI but I quickly found out to achieve victory became a task of frustration. In most RTS games I have played in the past (Command & Conquer Series, Warcraft II, Starcraft 1&2) to achieve total victory required 2 possible outcomes. Either the other player quit or all his structures were destroyed.In the game I played, I had destroyed every single enemy building and thought that was enough for victory. Obviously, it was not. I ended up having to search the entire map for last remnants of the enemy units and it took me an annoyingly long time to find those units. What made it even worse was that the AI units weren't even doing anything relatively productive to revive the computer's chances for a come from behind victory.Has this been discussed? I went through the stickies and future features to see if this would be fixed in future versions.Are there plans for different types of win states to be added in the future? Right now, the current 'total annihilation' win state is not fun. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wraitii Posted December 16, 2013 Report Share Posted December 16, 2013 This is actually because the AI doesn't ever surrender, when it probably should at some point. I'll try to see if something sensible can be added for Alpha 16. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanderd17 Posted December 16, 2013 Report Share Posted December 16, 2013 We should really remove the ConquestCritical flag from units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leper Posted December 16, 2013 Report Share Posted December 16, 2013 We should really remove the ConquestCritical flag from units.So the player with the huge army is defeated because his last house was destroyed? We should rather fix the AI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warfjm Posted December 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2013 "Civilization 4," although a Turn Based Strategy game and more macro style, has multiple win states that, if you wanted, are all possible at the same time. You can win having 3 cities with super high culture points or you can win by winning the 'space race or you can win by having the most culture points by the year 2050 or you could win by destroying everyone on the globe or conquering 3/4 of the entire globe.I'd like to see this sort of thing implemented in 0 AD. Multiple possible win states would be an interesting way to go and would definitely shake up possible strategies and keep the game from getting boring and repetitive. I also think multiple possible win states would be a refreshing change to the current RTS formula and might elevate 0 AD above current RTS juggernauts like SC2 and the Total War series. Well, maybe not. I better stop myself before I get too hyperbolic. But, I think it would be A LOT more fun than the current win state.Honestly, I'd like to see a culture war win state. You could build several significant cultural objects and still try to defend them from the enemy who is trying to win via the 'total annihilation' route. Once you've accumulated enough culture points or your borders have expanded to some arbitrary percentage of the map, then you win. I could think of several other types of win states that could work and be functional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunChleoc Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 (edited) When defining if you have conquered the enemy, we could check for the ability to build a civ center after the last one was destroyed. If the AI doesn't have enough resources or units left to do that and its army is small, it is doomed. Edited December 17, 2013 by GunChleoc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wraitii Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 AoM had a simple check like "if I've got under 10 units after 20 minutes, surrender" or something like that, which worked well enough. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feneur Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 (Related ticket on Trac: http://trac.wildfiregames.com/ticket/1649 ) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythos_Ruler Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 "Civilization 4," although a Turn Based Strategy game and more macro style, has multiple win states that, if you wanted, are all possible at the same time. You can win having 3 cities with super high culture points or you can win by winning the 'space race or you can win by having the most culture points by the year 2050 or you could win by destroying everyone on the globe or conquering 3/4 of the entire globe.I'd like to see this sort of thing implemented in 0 AD. Multiple possible win states would be an interesting way to go and would definitely shake up possible strategies and keep the game from getting boring and repetitive. I also think multiple possible win states would be a refreshing change to the current RTS formula and might elevate 0 AD above current RTS juggernauts like SC2 and the Total War series. Well, maybe not. I better stop myself before I get too hyperbolic. But, I think it would be A LOT more fun than the current win state.Honestly, I'd like to see a culture war win state. You could build several significant cultural objects and still try to defend them from the enemy who is trying to win via the 'total annihilation' route. Once you've accumulated enough culture points or your borders have expanded to some arbitrary percentage of the map, then you win. I could think of several other types of win states that could work and be functional.Multiple win conditions would be nice. We are slowly adding Wonders to the game, so a Wonder victory condition would be nice to have in the 'default' gameplay. Perhaps 1 more victory condition, like owning 75% of the map for X number of minutes. Both the Wonder and Territory conditions would have (visible) timers.When defining if you have conquered the enemy, we could check for the ability to build a civ center after the last one was destroyed. If the AI doesn't have enough resources or units left to do that and its army is small, it is doomed.AoM had a simple check like "if I've got under 10 units after 20 minutes, surrender" or something like that, which worked well enough.Both of those are good ideas, and should be implemented for the AI. But what about human players? Should we have something like 'Sudden Death' where there is a timer victory after destroying all of the enemy civic centers? If you can't get a new Civic Center built within 5-10 minutes, then you lose.Either way, there needs to be more victory conditions (and selectable in match setup, perhaps with check boxes). And the AI* needs to know when it should quit. Good thread. *It would be great to make the AI have multiple "personalities," perhaps slightly different play style and willingness to surrender for each of the possible AI names in the civ json list (we would cull this list to make it manageable). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythos_Ruler Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 (Related ticket on Trac: http://trac.wildfiregames.com/ticket/1649 )I commented on this:A countdown is a must for Wonder victory. 5 minutes sounds 'okay'. Perhaps 10 minutes is better, to allow the other players time to try and destroy the enemy Wonder and to give ample time for some combat action. As far as match setup goes, the host should be able to select multiple different victory conditions (perhaps with check boxes). So, Conquest, Wonder, Sudden Death (countdown to defeat once the player has lost all of their Civic Centers), perhaps Hegemony (own a large amount of the map for 10+ minutes), and Herocide (players start with a hero and if he dies they lose). All of the timers should be prominently visible to all players. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wraitii Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 *It would be great to make the AI have multiple "personalities," perhaps slightly different play style and willingness to surrender for each of the possible AI names in the civ json list (we would cull this list to make it manageable).Back in AoM days, I had actually modded the norse to never surrender, it felt better… But I digress.Anyhow, between players, it's my understanding that a not-stubborn player would surrender when defeated, so this is not an issue. A stubborn player will just have to be taught a lesson. I don't know if we have such a tech, but a "spy" tech like in AoE could serve that purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythos_Ruler Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 Back in AoM days, I had actually modded the norse to never surrender, it felt better… But I digress.Anyhow, between players, it's my understanding that a not-stubborn player would surrender when defeated, so this is not an issue. A stubborn player will just have to be taught a lesson. I don't know if we have such a tech, but a "spy" tech like in AoE could serve that purpose.I agree with the spy tech. Probably researchable at the Fortress. Reveals the line of sight of all enemy units. Cost of the tech is something like 50 Metal and 50 Food for each enemy unit. Exact cost is up for testing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wraitii Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 We should probably make it "reasonable" for units but absurdly high for buildings to discourage its use unless as a "so you're hiding your units" late game tactic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 May be, a final tech ( that can be reached in a special building with hight cost) can allow hidden units and building after CC is destroyed. A survivor tactic as was called by Wraitii. Only human can research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanderd17 Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 What about a tech that reveals the entire map, but requires you to defeat the player in 5 or 10 minutes. If you don't defeat the opponent in that time, you lose. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 (edited) We want do this XDBut we Want stop this.Sorry by the memes but they talk about some things that happens frequently in RTS games Edited December 17, 2013 by Lion.Kanzen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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