zoot Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Are sheep made in the corral intended to be steerable? They make unrealistically good spies: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki1950 Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Noticed this a few updates ago when a few sheep wandered out of range of the gathers I had assigned but I had the revel map toggled so did not notice the spy potential Enjoy the Choice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabio Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Celtic dogs can do the same, however they are considered ostile units to your enemy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feneur Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 They are meant to be controllable yes. And it would add other issues if you wouldn't have LOS of your sheep. However, until capturable animals are implemented (then they will change ownership to the enemy as soon as they are within LOS of one of their units and not in the LOS of one of your units) they definitely are a bit more usable as scouts than they should I think it's fine for the moment though, especially since you in one sense are providing your enemy with a free food source (as long as he sees it and kills it of course). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoot Posted August 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) Celtic dogs can do the same, however they are considered ostile units to your enemy.Sheep are too. Still, they seem very inconspicuous if they are just standing around on a field out of any soldier's range. Edited August 21, 2012 by zoot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoot Posted August 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 They are meant to be controllable yes. And it would add other issues if you wouldn't have LOS of your sheep.What are those issues? Would they be resolved by letting them show in the FoW (selectable and animated all all), just without LoS (or with a supertiny one) as also suggested here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjs23 Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 I find it funny being able to move sheep without a worker controlling it nearby. Naturally, sheep doesn't do what we command them to do so we force them to do (pushing, scaring them off to make them move, etc) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoot Posted August 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 I find it funny being able to move sheep without a worker controlling it nearby. Naturally, sheep doesn't do what we command them to do so we force them to do (pushing, scaring them off to make them move, etc)I agree, requiring a worker to be nearby would be a good way to limit this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabio Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Alternatively once generated they could act as chickens, gaia units moving in a small radius. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feneur Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 What are those issues? Would they be resolved by letting them show in the FoW (selectable and animated all all), just without LoS (or with a supertiny one) as also suggested here?Well, I'll leave the actual issues to the programmers (though sure showing them in the FoW would of course make things work, but could present other issues: you would still get info on what goes on in FoW by seeing where they cannot move etc, true it minimizes the issue, but my point is it doesn't remove all issues), but the main thing is: do we want to complicate things just for a tiny bit of added "realism"? Which isn't all that much of a point if you look at things for what they really are, sheep in 0 A.D. are hardly representing individual sheep. If you look at things in a more metaphorical way (which you have to with the game in any way since it's not a simulator) you can argue that the sheep represent a herd of sheep together with a shepherd. So to me the issue is more that taking things a bit too literal will complicate them without making the game any more fun (or really any more challenging, after all the LOS of sheep is pretty small as your screenshots show, and even now without the ownership change they are easily killed). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historic_bruno Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 We don't have herding yet, so what advantage would there be to make sheep uncontrollable? It would make sheep useless really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoot Posted August 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Useless? It's a handy to be able to move sheep out of the way, but I usually just slaughter them at the corral? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feneur Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Useless? It's a handy to be able to move sheep out of the way, but I usually just slaughter them at the corral? Well, either way, they will need to be controllable later when herding (task them to a corral and you get a slow, but infinite, stream of food, but you will of course still be able to kill them for a quick gain) is implemented, so why disable it now for a relatively minor issue like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoot Posted August 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Well, why fix any issue? In the end, it's a matter of opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historic_bruno Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 I don't think it's opinion, it's a fact that herding is planned and when implemented, herding will eliminate this issue. Being able to control sheep now is a workaround for not having herding. I think that's a fair trade off. As far as the LOS goes, dead units shouldn't have an LOS, I think that could be changed easily now since Deiz made corpse remnants a separate entity type. The remnant should be viewable in FoW though, which should fix the issue of not being able to see where you left the corpse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoot Posted August 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Being able to control sheep now is a workaround for not having herding. I think that's a fair trade off.feneur seemed to say they needed to be controllable for herding? Anyhow, it's not a big deal.As far as the LOS goes, dead units shouldn't have an LOSI believe this is already the case (that what I got while testing after the fix was applied, anyway). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historic_bruno Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 I believe this is already the case (that what I got while testing after the fix was applied, anyway).Ah that's indeed the case So this spying thing is really a very minor issue for A11. The sheep are no worse or better than a normal unit for exploring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoot Posted August 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Ah that's indeed the case So this spying thing is really a very minor issue for A11. The sheep are no worse or better than a normal unit for exploring.They are cheaper than any other unit (costs 0 population) at the expense of speed and LoS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen.Kenobi Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Sheeps were used in AoC to have a nice fast scout around your base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feneur Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Well, why fix any issue? In the end, it's a matter of opinion.The question is not whether or not to fix issues, the question is whether or not this is an issue And that may be a matter of opinion, but I have yet to see anything even come close to being a good argument as to why we should remove either the ability to control the sheep or their LOS. True, they might be used to scout, or exploited you might say (note that I'm not saying you are/would say, only that you might ), but I wouldn't call it an exploit as it does have its risks as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoot Posted August 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) You called it a "relatively minor issue" and I agree that it is. I just like games without any issues at all But losing scouting sheep nearly automatically does seem like a significant risk/balancing factor against using them like that. Edited August 21, 2012 by zoot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idanwin Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 When an enemy approaches one of your sheep, this sheep should become his, so you don't want to let them go close to the enemy encampment!But sheep should be controllable! That makes it easier to harvest them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historic_bruno Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 When an enemy approaches one of your sheep, this sheep should become his, so you don't want to let them go close to the enemy encampment!But sheep should be controllable! That makes it easier to harvest them.Right, I believe that is how herding will work - think conversion or capturing. Generally killing a herd animal will be less desirable than herding or corralling them, it depends on what you need and how soon you'll need it. The interesting dynamic will be during raids: say you have a bunch of sheep, horses, and such in your corrals providing bonuses (food from sheep, faster training for cavalry units from horses), then if unprotected an enemy can come through raiding and steal them. Or they could be slaughtered but that leaves the meat behind. Another thing to keep in mind is that animals won't only have to be trained, you will possibly find sheep, goats, and horses in the wild and bring them back to your town (maybe also elephants and camels, depending on the map). Maybe once your herd animal enters enemy territory without an accompanying unit, it can be automatically captured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaRay Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Using sheeps as spies was standard for me for over the last 10 years in AOE II... it was not realistic, but funny When played coop with fried against several computer enemies the first we done was to sent out the "elite sheeps" (as we called these) to have a rough map with possible ways and first enemy buildings before the sheeps disappears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MishFTW Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Why not have it so that sheep change color based on territory? If its my land, then its my sheep (or any other domesticated animal for that matter). If the sheep is in neutral territory, then it would belong to Gaia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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