Classical Warfare AEA

[Outis]

12 hours ago, Emacz said:

you can only train 3 helots per every champ…. Although you can train up to 10 without.

This looks like a great way to restrict Spartan econony. One question: are Perioikoi completely unlimited?

[Outis]

1 hour ago, Emacz said:

This would be nice, I need to think about if there is a way to do that...

Maybe have a look at DE? @wowgetoffyourcellphonehas aura-based formation bonuses such as shield wall for hoplites and massed pikes for Macedonian phalanx.

Edited yesterday at 11:58 by Outis

[Thalatta]

I think Sparta and Thebes populations were comparable, but full Spartan citizens were abysmally less. Maybe forget that extra population penalty, and deal with it by limiting more the number of Spartiates as one progresses. Neodamodes units should kind of become a necessity. All this has been proposed already by me and others before me, and aligns well with reality.

[Emacz]

1 hour ago, Outis said:

This looks like a great way to restrict Spartan econony. One question: are Perioikoi completely unlimited?

Yes, BUT in our mod "citizen soldiers" are not as good at eco as civilians....  Sparta doesnt have civlians... their Helots have the same gather rates as civilians but are worse fighters than normal "CS"

1 hour ago, Outis said:

Maybe have a look at DE? @wowgetoffyourcellphonehas aura-based formation bonuses such as shield wall for hoplites and massed pikes for Macedonian phalanx.

We have the aura based ones... I need to think of how it could work for units that are NOT know for formation, ie the tribal warriors.  Auras need another unit to trigger the aura... So phlanx for example only takes effect if there is another unit with it close by,... even though it really should be you need at least X amount for it to trigger...  I dont know how to do that

52 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

I think Sparta and Thebes populations were comparable, but full Spartan citizens were abysmally less. Maybe forget that extra population penalty, and deal with it by limiting more the number of Spartiates as one progresses. Neodamodes units should kind of become a necessity. All this has been proposed already by me and others before me, and aligns well with reality.

yeah, so basically spartiates take longer and longer to train as you progress, so they are harder to reinforce so you need at least more Peiroikois.  We actually limit neomades for now, cause they are 0 pop... they are helots who eventually promote and they are weaker than all CS but they don't take up pop... but I may change that a little since that was back when Helots were 0 pop.

[Outis]

5 hours ago, Emacz said:

My only problem with giving sparta another pop penalty is Im OCD

I agree with @Thalatta, idea is to only restrict Champion spearmen for Spartans additionally. And balance the stats so they kick backsides even in low numbers.

[Emacz]

So again, they aren’t restricted. They are stronger than regular champ spearman, especially once they are fully promoted. But when you go p2, they take an additional 10% train time. When you go p3, they take an additional 15% on top of that. And a few of their techs add additional train time. So unless you play death match with cheats, or a game for hours it’s harder to replenish/mass them. On the othetide of the equation Perioikoi take 10% less train time in p2 and an additional 10% less p3… so you can basically train 3 periokio in the time it takes to train one spartiates.

[Outis]

2 hours ago, Emacz said:

I need to think of how it could work for units that are NOT know for formation, ie the tribal warriors. 

What i meant was: you can make hoplites, Macedonian phalanx, Roman infantry etc benefit from auras, and make tribal warriors a bit beefier and not benefit from auras so they pack a punch in single combat but lose to formations in similar group numbers. But, of course, the differences should be small enough so as not to break the game.

[Emacz]

Ok yeah, that would work… they could get an attack bonus like city states as part of their grouping… and then as they phase up they get additional attack bonuses that don’t happen to other civs. But they won’t have some of the protection, auras that other units have. 
I can put place holders in for all of this… but will take lots of play time to figure out the right balances. And I can’t really do that by playing against myself

any volunteers to play/test mp with me?!??

[Outis]

2 minutes ago, Emacz said:

So unless you play death match with cheats, or a game for hours it’s harder to replenish/mass them.

This sounds good to me . Meaning, as the game progresses, you need to keep them alive somehow. 

 

4 minutes ago, Emacz said:

On the othetide of the equation Perioikoi take 10% less train time in p2 and an additional 10% less p3

Im curious why you have this though. Just to counteract the fact you will have less champions and consequently less helots?

[Emacz]

Yes and from what I read later in their history Spartans relied more on Perioikoi as they couldn’t maintain the same spartiates numbers. So wanted to balance out a little. And helots aren’t exactly “soldiers” they can’t promote, they don’t receive techs….. they are basically cheap bodies to offer a little “missile” action.

again maybe the Perioikoi reduced train time isn’t needed. Need more games to sorta see how it works out.

[Emacz]

Thanks to @Atrik Maury Ele archers can now shoot multiple arrows as they rank up! Sneak peak at volley attack which will be released next alpha

Edited 5 hours ago by Emacz

[Emacz]

tell me if you think I’m crazy…. I was gonna lower all melee armor to 1/1/1..then set movement speed based on weapons, swords/maces first, then axes, then spear than pike. Then I was gonna differentiate “spearman” with a mixin based off of the type of shield they used…. I’ve played around with it for javelneers. I have the peltast, the caetra, the Parma, Celtic shield and noba shield. Then like @wowgetoffyourcellphone did with Thebes mod I can add a "history" which will give a little info on all the different shields, make things a little more educational  and a lot more diverse.

@Thalatta @Outis thoughts?

[Emacz]

Could also get rid of some of the forge techs for shields... and the armor ones could be based on which civs used what types of armors.  One for melee and one for ranged...  a little more custimisation, and diversity. With hopefully "history" behind most of the units, techs, etc and why some civs have but others don't....

[Outis]

1 hour ago, Emacz said:

tell me if you think I’m crazy…. I was gonna lower all melee armor to 1/1/1..then set movement speed based on weapons, swords/maces first, then axes, then spear than pike. Then I was gonna differentiate “spearman” with a mixin based off of the type of shield they used…. I’ve played around with it for javelneers. I have the peltast, the caetra, the Parma, Celtic shield and noba shield. Then like @wowgetoffyourcellphone did with Thebes mod I can add a "history" which will give a little info on all the different shields, make things a little more educational  and a lot more diverse.

@Thalatta @Outis thoughts?

My opinion: why differentiate shields only for spearmen? If you are going that route, i would base movement speed on the complete gear.

However, keep in mind: this will be complex for both the team to balance as well as for casual player to notice the nuances.

I say go for it and let's see how it works .

[Outis]

49 minutes ago, Emacz said:

Could also get rid of some of the forge techs for shields

I am rather fond of techs. In fact, i recommend to check this mod for unit specific upgrades. I think it is a great way to differentiate civs. Some civs may need to research some upgrades, some civs could have the upgrade for free, some civs could be missing some completely.

 

[Emacz]

@OutisI was just using spearman as an example, but yes it would be for each melee unit...

And what I would do for techs, with the help of you and @Thalatta over time is, I would have one armor one for spearman, swordman, pikeman, clubmen, axeman.  So basicaly your unit starts off with "no armor" just a shield and weapon... and then you decide which ones you want to give which units, at a loss of speed...  

your gear or "kit" wouldnt look different as you ranked up... instead if you got a tech it would change the appearance of gear.  

Edited 47 minutes ago by Emacz

[Outis]

5 minutes ago, Emacz said:

your gear or "kit" wouldnt look different as you ranked up... instead if you got a tech it would change the appearance of gear.  

If i remember correctly, Age of Mythology had this, and it looked pretty well. So ranking up does not impact visually except the rank icon right?

[Emacz]

correct, and all ranking up does for you is give you a little bit more health and a little bit more melee attack or range accuarcy.

[Emacz]

may even take it a step further, custCWA chart - Sheet10.pdfomize the weapons too (not the graphics though, just the stats, length, speed etc)

based on this chart, if you find it fairly accurate.