Strange Idea

[tinoesroho]

I must confess I've greatly enjoyed 0 AD - I saw it just before it went to Alpha, but didn't play it then. Alpha 3's been fun (multiplayer), and I can't wait until Alpha 4.

Is it planned for villagers to be able to modify terrain (Such as building swamps, shallows, filling in shallows, filling in water, etc)? If not, what would it take for it to happen?

[Kimball]

No, this is not currently planned, and honestly I don't really see an application for it. Though theoretically possible (to an extent), there's no reason why the player should need to modify the terrain during the course of a game.

Modifying water, on the other hand, is out of the question. Rendering our water is relatively taxing, and rendering multiple planes of water would likely reduce your computer to a pile of dust. That's why our maps currently only have one water plane.

[oshron]

No, this is not currently planned, and honestly I don't really see an application for it. Though theoretically possible (to an extent), there's no reason why the player should need to modify the terrain during the course of a game.

Modifying water, on the other hand, is out of the question. Rendering our water is relatively taxing, and rendering multiple planes of water would likely reduce your computer to a pile of dust. That's why our maps currently only have one water plane.

yknow, i was wondering one thing, though: can you change where the water plane is? like, in the scenario editor, just raise or lower it so that it covers up more terrain?

[Pureon]

yknow, i was wondering one thing, though: can you change where the water plane is? like, in the scenario editor, just raise or lower it so that it covers up more terrain?

In the 'Environment' menu the slider 'Water Height' does just that.

While real water is limited to 1 plane on 0AD maps, that doesn't stop us creating models with fake water on them. Waterfalls, raised lakes, and aqueducts are all possible using water 3D models, although they won't look as fluid as 'real' 0AD water, and you won't be able to float ships on them.

[Ykkrosh]

One thing we have planned is that if you construct a building on uneven terrain, the terrain should get automatically flattened (otherwise the buildings look like they're partly floating, which is silly). But more extensive terrain alteration sounds more complex to do well (we'd probably have to deal with changing terrain textures, and handle units that drown themselves, etc).

[WhiteTreePaladin]

I do think farms should essentially just be terrain. The other AoE games (including AoE3) do this.

[phil44]

In the 'Environment' menu the slider 'Water Height' does just that.

While real water is limited to 1 plane on 0AD maps, that doesn't stop us creating models with fake water on them. Waterfalls, raised lakes, and aqueducts are all possible using water 3D models, although they won't look as fluid as 'real' 0AD water, and you won't be able to float ships on them.

So does that mean a wide river flowing into a large lake on a different level with a waterfall, will only have either the river OR lake traversable by boats, and not both since they would be on two different planes? Or am i misunderstanding how it works? Not a huge deal, but would be nice if possible.

[Jubalbarca]

The adjustable water height could give some interesting ideas for weather effects though - rain effect creating a swollen banked stream and washing out low-lying farms, or a drought similarly opening up new fords for a breif time period?

[Kimball]

It's a matter of conserving your system's resources, not whether or not we think it's a good idea. There's a reason our water looks so awesome.

[oshron]

it could also work for map design. suppose you want to create a flooded europe. just create it geographically accurate to the best of your ability, and then raise the water level

it could also work for in-game disasters (which i think would be great for scenario design), such as a recreation of the old testament as a campaign, so you have to get two of every available animal and load them onto an ark before a timer runs out, at which point the map will flood by the water plane rising. or it could work for an atlantis-type scenario or even as a random map in which you must load villagers onto a boat on atlantis (in the center of the map) and sail out to other continents around the edges of the map, which are of a rather high elevation so that they avoid the flood. or, as mentioned before, it could possibly work for a drought, perhaps simulating the occasional prehistoric drying of the mediterranean that isolated populations of animals and spawned such creatures as the dwarf elephant, or it could work for an ice age where the water level drops in the winter because the (off-map) ice caps freeze more of the water in place and leave some landbridges available

if such a thing were ever implemented, though, land units should be killed by water that completely surrounds them. it would also be cool if there were some amphibious units that can go on both land and water, or ones that can at least swim a short distance into water or in shallow water that would kill other units

[comp3820]

I don't know if it's worth the trouble, but one application of villagers modding terrain could be the Romans building their camps - they could dig a ditch around the wall.

You could also build a dirt bank to protect your city, and to place archers on for a height advantage.

... now you've got me thinking - how hard would it be to make it possible to roll large stones down hills (man-made or not) to ambush enemies? That would be awesome!

Modding terrain with the water plane idea could also produce water-filled moats, assuming the water level was close to the terrain level.

[oshron]

im pretty sure earthen defenses like that are already planned for the celts. boulders would also be cool, but i think it would only work effectively in scenarios, not in random map modes. like there's an army of romans crossing a mountain pass so the celts drop boulders on them, not only killing alot of the romans but also blocking the path so that they have more time to build up their defenses, or in an rpg-like setting, the heroes are walking through the mountains and suddenly a bunch of barbarians start rolling boulders down at them, which they must evade.

i think the best way for moats to work would be for them to be functionally similar to walls, so the build animation looks like the workers are digging into the ground (even though theyre not) and a terrain texture appears that looks like a moat, perhaps even with moving water. this, too, would work best for scenarios, i think, as opposed to random maps

but i think another cool thing would be to make certain "buildings" that look just like terrain that you place OVER other terrain, like water, so that any player can later dig it away to expose a moat, lake, or canal. before then, the player can have their units walk over it, so it can be a strategic choice, too, cutting off two parts of the map so that you can more easily defend that frontier while you build up at a more vulnerable place, or open up trade between two areas (suppose its on a map simulating the middle east and mediterranean, you could create the suez canal to open up trade between southern arabia and greece). it could also be used for ice fishing

while on that matter, it would be cool if, again for scenarios, you could create land bridges in-game by commanding siege such as catapults to fire boulders into shallow water, creating a rocky but solid bridge to attack an island like how alexander invaded tyre

[tinoesroho]

Terrain as buildings? Great idea, although implementing that would be difficult, to say the least. Nice to see brainstorming occuring - it's good for the community to provide feedback.

[Aldandil]

Adjustable water level would be an important part of seasonal effects, if the effects of seasons are ever added to the game later on. In the Mediterranean biome, rivers and lakes should shrink during summer and really reach full size only in winter. In Egypt, it could even be possible to create maps featuring irrigation canals or the riverbank itself, with the water flooding low land during the inundation (forget what part of the year it was) and retreating during the other seasons.

[oshron]

Terrain as buildings? Great idea, although implementing that would be difficult, to say the least. Nice to see brainstorming occuring - it's good for the community to provide feedback.

i dont think it would be TOO difficult. havent the programmers already demonstrated that its possible to place units on walls, even though its probably not gonna be implemented in the initial releases? the same basic principle could be employed, allowing units to walk over neutral terrain "buildings" while it is still extant but be capable of destroying it (by visually digging or hacking into it with dirt and ice, respectively) if they are commanded to do so. another idea that comes to mind is the possibility of rock bridges that the player could possibly break down over time, or that could possibly erode (if they were made of dirt instead of rock) to close one passage that was available early on and create a new one

Adjustable water level would be an important part of seasonal effects, if the effects of seasons are ever added to the game later on. In the Mediterranean biome, rivers and lakes should shrink during summer and really reach full size only in winter. In Egypt, it could even be possible to create maps featuring irrigation canals or the riverbank itself, with the water flooding low land during the inundation (forget what part of the year it was) and retreating during the other seasons.

DEFINITELY. it would be cool if you could build structures close to water, but then the rainy season comes and you have to retreat to a higher elevation while your buildings become flooded. it occurs to me that maybe a secondary water plane could be created that purposely discolors the terrain under it so that you can see where the water will rise to for such flooding effects, especially if its a periodic flooding of a large area rather than just the banks of a river. flooding with the seasons could also prove to be strategic; fords in real-world rivers can become impassable if the river floods but accessible again when the water goes down, so there could very well be scenarios and random maps alike where the map is divided into two or more regions by rivers that have shallow crossings at some times but become flooded in winter or the rainy season (or whatever season produces rain for that biome) and impassable, preventing armies from crossing the river without the use of boats, which could also be a strategic advantage if an enemy hasnt built a dock, giving another player either the strategic opportunity to attack in spite of the rain slowing them down or to build up their own defenses, traiin some more soldiers, or work on the economy by hunting or woodcutting in the rain (i imagine, realistically, that mining and farming would be halted by the rain). on certain types of the map (possibly included in the same file as the aforementioned types) that are supposed to take place in more northerly latitudes like scandinavia or northern russia, the rivers could possibly be impassable at all times OTHER than the "rainy" season, or winter, at which time they freeze over entirely or at fords that will allow you to attack other players overland only in winter.

by the way, will units slide on ice? if they dont, they should

OH! another idea! i know its been explicitly stated that there wont be any "indoor" capabilities, but wouldnt it be possible to make faux cave and building entrances that LOOK solid, but arent? this was already accomplished in AOM and it was pretty darn cool. wouldnt it be rather simple to create "fake" doorways, cave entrances, and the like?

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

I have always thought that it would be cool if you could build roads for movement bonuses and trade bonuses.

[oshron]

i think that may already be planned. i remember seeing a picture by one of the producers demonstrating pathfinding abilities that had roads on it, which units are programmed to use if they are closeby. this was also used in EE2, btw, and made for a great aspect of gameplay

[comp3820]

I definitely like the idea of roads - Rome invested quite a bit in roads, and they could play a significant role in a campaign.

Speaking of units on walls, is that going to be implemented? I think you would almost double the interest in the game. Well, maybe not that much, but tons of people are interested in being able to use walls like they are supposed to be used - height advantage, defend from both sides, not just one.

Speaking of roads and walking on walls, if there are going to be people on walls, the walls should be a type of road themselves, since, I believe, they were used as roads. I think the Great Wall is an example of this, but I'm not sure.

And while we are speaking of speed, are units going to be able to run? I thought the first alpha or an earlier version had units that ran when you double-clicked. Is that still in planning as well?

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Speaking of units on walls, is that going to be implemented? I think you would almost double the interest in the game. Well, maybe not that much, but tons of people are interested in being able to use walls like they are supposed to be used - height advantage, defend from both sides, not just one.

Well that is really tricky to do so I don't think that it will be done until this game "goes gold" (maybe 4 or so years from now.) They will run eventually.

Edited February 7, 2011 by Thorfinn the Shallow Minded

[feneur]

Speaking of units on walls, is that going to be implemented?

Units on walls will be implemented, but probably just stationary units. So no walking on walls etc as it seems like now.

And while we are speaking of speed, are units going to be able to run? I thought the first alpha or an earlier version had units that ran when you double-clicked. Is that still in planning as well?

Units will be able to run, see: http://www.wildfiregames.com/0ad/page.php?p=10066 (And yeah, it was implemented before the rewrite of a big piece of the code, but is one of the few features that was implemented then but isn't yet reimplemented. Mostly because the focus have been on other bigger features.)

[comp3820]

Great! Running units will be awesome. And guys on walls will be too, even if its a little different - more like garrisoning a guy in a wall, I assume.

Here's a random idea I came up with (somewhat related to units modifying terrain): units that are capable of changing the "passability" of ground, like on a mountain.

For example, I was just playing a multi-player game with my brother where I wanted to perch a fort on a mountain right above his town. nice idea, but the way to get on the mountain was on his side, not mine, so I couldn't get any guys up there without being seen.

If there was a unit that could go ahead of my builders and put some spikes into the side of the mountain, I could have gone and built my fortress. Or if there was simply a unit that could climb and build - he could go to the top and build the fort. Or there could be a hero unit that allows any unit near it to climb up a mountain (any famous mountain-climbing generals? Hannibal maybe?).

I'd better stop there - I have too many ideas and no capability of implementing them

[Pureon]

Not sure mountain climbing is one of the proposed abilities, but it's an interesting idea!

You'll be surprised what can be achieved with some simple modding

[comp3820]

Sweet! Someday I'll spend some time looking into the finer points of life, like AI scripting and game modding

How close is the game language to C#? I've had all of one semester of programming, but it might be fun see how much I can understand of how the game really works. I am only capable of blendering and playing right now

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

It's more like C++ or something

[tinoesroho]

Javascript is rather similar to C.