Balancing ideas poll (Community mod)

[Atrik]

 Disclaimer : Doing this poll on my own initiative. I didn't consult @real_tabasco_sauce about it but I believe that it would be at least interesting to have votes on balancing ideas that are probably going to be introduced in a28; or even maybe, it could be default of how balancing changes are introduced (like it was for the first version of com mod a26).

Ideally votes should be only submitted after testing and building a good opinion on the changes through community mod.

PR links for more infos:
Cheaper Wall
Han Ministers rework
Carth Techs, Bonus and Unit rework
Fort Accuracy
Nerf Capture
Elephants and Longswords tweak
Mauryas Maiden rework

Edited 5 hours ago by Atrik

[Classic-Burger]

Could you give more details about some changes?

[Atrik]

10 minutes ago, Classic-Burger said:

Could you give more details about some changes?

My bad, I need to link the git PR.
Also remember changes are in com mod.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Yes, several of these are in the community mod current version. For the walls stuff you will have to go back 1 version if i remember correctly. I only made PRs for things that I thought were moderately to well received when playtesting. For example, I left out the 3x cav counter, which seemed to go poorly.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

3 hours ago, Atrik said:

it could be default of how balancing changes are introduced (like it was for the first version of com mod a26).

Under that approach, managing discussions and polls took almost as much time as writing the changes. I think its generally more time-efficient to deliver changes to the community mod and see what sticks.

[Deicide4u]

Well, I'm glad that we can all agree on the Carthage changes, lol.

[Atrik]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

managing discussions and polls took almost as much time as writing the changes. I think its generally more time-efficient to deliver changes to the community mod and see what sticks.

Likely to be much more time managing the discussions. The goal isn't to make it easier to write changes (tweaking templates isn't really hard-work to begin with, and require minimal technical skills too, anyone could do it), more like to try to leverage the wisdom of the masses/the community to validate or not balancing ideas.

Having theses polls would open discussions framed around existing PRs (and available in com mod possibly to be tested); avoid oversights, or validate changes you suggests. If all these changes just go from com mod to next release what's the point of calling them "tested". At time of writing, all changes seems to be approved, so if ever some would complain later, you would at least be able to point to the poll and say they were voted in, and players complaining should have contributed to the debate then.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I was taking about polls to add stuff to the community mod ala a26, and I thought that’s what you were bringing up.

It’s worked pretty well I think to use the com mod as a place to experiment and collect feedback.

[Classic-Burger]

Lack of communication. Sincerely 

[Atrik]

On theses changes I only know about the changes to structures (The rest I haven't tested enough or have enough elements to form an strong opinion):

• Cheap Walls, Palisades especially spammed*, are very annoying for the game-play in current context. They just make pathfinder bug (I know it's not a bug, but a feature of the gates, but it feels like a pathfinder bug); when they are a lot of them, even breached, they kinda take too much visual space; most players don't like stalled games... Basically more walls = more frustrations. I'll rather have them actually strong, and hope for a feature to make them easier to snap with other buildings or even terrain.
  *In your PR you say that since they are weaker, they will be spammed less, but that's unlikely to be the case, cheaper but weaker incentivize spam, not  the opposite.
• Fort Accuracy; defenses are already super strong this alpha, especially forts, increasing their ability to kill single units like hero doesn't make sens to me.
• Capture Regeneration Rate of Structures; again, defenses are already very strong currently. But if you really think some famous structures players strategically surround with defensive wheat fields needs be harder to capture, then I would rather increase capture points rather then capture regeneration. This would make capturing and defending easier to learn, because evaluating the effects of regeneration is kinda tricky. A lot of players complain that enemies always capture their structure so easily but themself can't, because they have not yet the experience of the trickiness (exponential effects) of capture regeneration.

[Player of 0AD]

9 minutes ago, Atrik said:

On theses changes I only know about the changes to structures (The rest I haven't tested enough or have enough elements to form an strong opinion):

• Cheap Walls, Palisades especially spammed*, are very annoying for the game-play in current context. They just make pathfinder bug (I know it's not a bug, but a feature of the gates, but it feels like a pathfinder bug); when they are a lot of them, even breached, they kinda take too much visual space; most players don't like stalled games... Basically more walls = more frustrations. I'll rather have them actually strong, and hope for a feature to make them easier to snap with other buildings or even terrain.
  *In your PR you say that since they are weaker, they will be spammed less, but that's unlikely to be the case, cheaper but weaker incentivize spam, not  the opposite.
• Fort Accuracy; defenses are already super strong this alpha, especially forts, increasing their ability to kill single units like hero doesn't make sens to me.
• Capture Regeneration Rate of Structures; again, defenses are already very strong currently. But if you really think some famous structures players strategically surround with defensive wheat fields needs be harder to capture, then I would rather increase capture points rather then capture regeneration. This would make capturing and defending easier to learn, because evaluating the effects of regeneration is kinda tricky. A lot of players complain that enemies always capture their structure so easily but themself can't, because they have not yet the experience of the trickiness (exponential effects) of capture regeneration.

Strongly agree. Experienced players know that Alpha 24 was a big disappointment, because it was very turtle-focussed. Almost everyone hated it. This new community mod version is very similar.

[Deicide4u]

22 minutes ago, Atrik said:

• Cheap Walls, Palisades especially spammed*, are very annoying for the game-play in current context. They just make pathfinder bug (I know it's not a bug, but a feature of the gates, but it feels like a pathfinder bug); when they are a lot of them, even breached, they kinda take too much visual space; most players don't like stalled games... Basically more walls = more frustrations. I'll rather have them actually strong, and hope for a feature to make them easier to snap with other buildings or even terrain.
  *In your PR you say that since they are weaker, they will be spammed less, but that's unlikely to be the case, cheaper but weaker incentivize spam, not  the opposite.
• Fort Accuracy; defenses are already super strong this alpha, especially forts, increasing their ability to kill single units like hero doesn't make sens to me.

1) Currently, walls are almost never used, at least not in any "pro" game I've watched.

2) Defenses are pathetically weak now. Towers are stupid easy to capture, and by the time you get Fortresses (which are otherwise useless now), the enemy has access to siege. And siege wrecks buildings in this game.

I support almost every change laid out here, except adding instant stone mining to Carthage and changing Longswordsmen. 

Edited 15 minutes ago by Deicide4u