Most difficult civ for you

[vanz]

Will you tell me the most difficult civ to use for your playing style and the reason? 

[Deicide4u]

Persians as I don't really like cavalry and archer civilizations. My playing style revolves around masses of strong melee units and good siege, because I like to destroy buildings.

The easiest? Romans, for the above reason.

[Player of 0AD]

Han. Almost everything about them sucks: Champion play, infantry, small fields, big buildings...  Few advantages of them are the cheaper "will to fight" variations and the fact that they can immediately train sword cavalry.

[Deicide4u]

Han and Kushites also have way too many unit classes to choose from. So, you need to know on which units to focus your limited resources.

Romans and Spartans, on the other hand, you know what to train from the start of a game.

[vanz]

Oh no. Han mentioned twice. I like Han btw. Their CS and P2 barrack units share same price, and its cheap. The P2 ones are simply better. And I like their 60 metres ranged horsemen. Fast and can outrange most units. Still, they're cheap.

In other hand, I don't like civ which lacks of siege machine. Just ram, and no cat,no siege ship too. I like to use siege ship for scraping coastline. Of course because I never play with someone else, and the AI is not great for water fight.

[vanz]

1 hour ago, Player of 0AD said:

...the fact that they can immediately train sword cavalry.

Hey. I wasn't aware about this before. No, I did actually underestimate this unit because it's available from P1 CC. I thought it's similar to Light Cavalry in AoE, however the fact that it's the only sword welding unit in this civ. Dozen of them and they can hit rams effectively. Good for scouting too. 

[Deicide4u]

6 minutes ago, vanz said:

the only sword welding unit in this civ

Halberdiers have more hack damage than most other spearmen line units. You can kill rams with them if sword cavalry is not around.

[Atrik]

6 hours ago, Deicide4u said:

Halberdiers have more hack damage than most other spearmen line units. You can kill rams with them if sword cavalry is not around.

Funny I've assumed all this time that Halberdiers had Pikman stats. Just realizing now they are bad, beside maybe working a bit better as anti rams (a bit useless for hans who have sword cavs from cc already). 

[guerringuerrin]

We really need a more direct and clear way to display unit stats.

[Atrik]

3 minutes ago, guerringuerrin said:

We really need a more direct and clear way to display unit stats.

I don't even have this issue of vanilla gui  I just made an assumption that units with the class "pikeman" would be homogeneous if not for a bonus or tech. Apparently this one is a exception.

[chrstgtr]

1 hour ago, Atrik said:

I don't even have this issue of vanilla gui  I just made an assumption that units with the class "pikeman" would be homogeneous if not for a bonus or tech. Apparently this one is an exception.

it’s a fair assumption since this is true for all other CS units. I pushed back against the stats being this way for this reason—you shouldn’t have to look at stats or play the game hundreds of times to recognize the nuances of unit strength between different civs. 

If you’re missing this “differentiation” then I don’t know who actually can appreciate it  

 

[guerringuerrin]

2 hours ago, Atrik said:

I don't even have this issue of vanilla gui  I just made an assumption that units with the class "pikeman" would be homogeneous if not for a bonus or tech. Apparently this one is a exception.

Yeah i mean, only way i know to see units stats is right click on the unit portrait and u got a fixed position window which covers the whole center of the screen with every stats of the unit. Also If you want to know the military upgrades of your enemy you need to check their damage and do the maths to know how many upgrades they have ( yeah, I know you can memorize this stuff for every unit......)

It's OK to have all this info here but we might want to have the Combat stats in a more accesible and direct way. boonGUI had something like that (which I think you ported to ModernGUI) on the bottom bar. Very useful.

I share two other examples from SC2 and AOE2


 

boonGUI version got some combat stats here.

 

 

aoe2 example.

U got Damage + Damage Upgrades
Melee Armor+Upgrades/Range Armor+Upgrades

SC2

U got those stats portraits which are for Armor, Ground Damage, Air Damage, and the three 0s tells you the upagrades it have. Then If you want more detailed info you can hover your mouse and that green square displays Damage, Attack Types (2 in this case), Range, and so on. The "Armored - Mechanical - Massives"are for the unit classes, as some classes are more resistant against other classes and so on

 

 

 

Edited Friday at 22:43 by guerringuerrin

[Deicide4u]

18 minutes ago, guerringuerrin said:

aoe2 example.

U got Damage + Damage Upgrades
Melee Armor+Upgrades/Range Armor+Upgrades

Yes, we need more straightforward access to units stats, optimally with upgrades. The popup screen only shows base stats for an unit, and you have to hover over a very small sword and shield icon to see real stats.

I like how Age of Mythology did it.

Clean and to the point. Doesn't take a lot of screen space. Of course, it also shows attack and damage in a similar way to AoE2.

[guerringuerrin]

19 minutes ago, Deicide4u said:

and you have to hover over a very small sword and shield icon to see real stats.

Oh you are right, I missed that. I knew there was one more way to check stats but wasnt sure if it was vanila or some mod. 

 

I'd get rid of some stats that can be checked in the other window and lay out the combat stats a bit better to improve readability.

 

btw, can someone explain me how to read the resistances stats? I don't understand what the percentajes in hack pierce and crush means

[vanz]

2 hours ago, guerringuerrin said:

can someone explain me how to read the resistances stats? I don't understand what the percentajes in hack pierce and crush means

In other games I play, it always means damage reduction.

 

Anyways, some units has multiple types of attack pts. Do they deal multiple type of damages in one hit? 

Edited yesterday at 02:11 by vanz

[Deicide4u]

8 hours ago, guerringuerrin said:

I'd get rid of some stats that can be checked in the other window

Again, popup window shows only base stats, including base gather rates. Those can be upgraded with economic upgrades.

5 hours ago, vanz said:

Anyways, some units has multiple types of attack pts. Do they deal multiple type of damages in one hit?

Yes, they do. Each damage type is checked against its resistance type.

If an unit does 10 hack and 10 pierce damage against an unit that has 50% hack and 40% pierce resistance, the unit will take:

5 hack + 6 pierce = 11 total damage. 

[ffm2]

For a complex overview there's:

https://docs.wildfiregames.com/templatesanalyzer/

Resistance in % is easy to understand. But it's first in points e.g. 

Points  Formula    Percent
------  --------   -------
1       1-0.9^1    10%
2       1-0.9^2    19%
3       1-0.9^3    27%
4       1-0.9^4    34%
5       1-0.9^5    41%
6       1-0.9^6    47%
7       1-0.9^7    52%
8       1-0.9^8    57%
9       1-0.9^9    61%
10      1-0.9^10   65%

Edited 17 hours ago by ffm2

[ffm2]

The accuracy is totally hidden atm.. Also the increasing accuracy at increasing rank of units. A lot of the real complex behavior can be only experienced in game.

[guerringuerrin]

4 hours ago, Deicide4u said:

Again, popup window shows only base stats, including base gather rates. Those can be upgraded with economic upgrades.

I didn't got me. I meant when I hover on the shield, get rid of some stats u can see on the popup windows, gather rates, loots. And leave only combat stats.

 

@ffm2but the resistance stats have also a number. Like: "5.0 Have (41%). So, what the 5.0 means then?

[ffm2]

2 minutes ago, guerringuerrin said:

@ffm2but the resistance stats have also a number. Like: "5.0 Have (41%). So, what the 5.0 means then?

That's the first column. I called it points there. You can convert it to percent (with that formula)

[guerringuerrin]

Thanks. So in the end is 41% damage reduction. I mean, player doesn't even need to see the Points

[ffm2]

It has relevance. The techs add resistance in points. Also the heroes add sometimes in points (e.g. Caratacus add +1 of each resistance type) and sometimes in % (e.g. Scipio adds 20% melee and range damage).

You won't be able to calculate live in the game, but still it is a difference.

Edited 16 hours ago by ffm2

[ffm2]

Seems all attack upgrades/auras are directly written in %. So each additional upgrade for attack e.g. 10% works even better. But each additional point has less effect.

• The first point protects of 10% of the damage
• The additional point from 9 to 10 only protects of 4% damage more.

[Deicide4u]

34 minutes ago, guerringuerrin said:

I didn't got me. I meant when I hover on the shield, get rid of some stats u can see on the popup windows, gather rates, loots. And leave only combat stats.

Yes, but if you get rid of the stats there, how will you know your real gather rates after all the upgrades? The stats written on the popup window don't show real gather rates, only the base ones.

I got you, but if we remove those stats from there, we'd then need the popup window to show the real stats with all upgrades listed. As in Age of Mythology.

The discussion is off-topic, so maybe we should move this issue to a separate thread?

[Atrik]

17 hours ago, guerringuerrin said:

It's OK to have all this info here but we might want to have the Combat stats in a more accesible and direct way. boonGUI had something like that (which I think you ported to ModernGUI) on the bottom bar. Very useful.

It's not that easy to display so much stats on limited space. I also disliked that units had stats that you cannot know unless you check the xml, such as the splash radius. I've just added a bunch more details to ModernGUI tooltips.