Overhaul of the Citizen system

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@TheCJ you get to the core of the problem. If others are confused be sure to read up on the booming=turtling discussion to see what causes the main issues with the CS system.

For cavalry the citizen soldier eco/fighting balance seems to be pretty good when we look at the early game when hunt is available. The same can be done with infantry, its just more difficult.

I believe we can absolutely still maintain a citizen soldier system with CS infantry being useful for eco, fighting, and building while introducing a male economic unit. The balance of the male eco unit versus citizen soldiers would be tailored to make the choice of whether to eco or fight with CS a less obvious one. Yes it will make the eco situation of the game more complicated as there will be more ways to boom, but the potential depth of strategy would be very worth it.

[Emacz]

On 14/05/2025 at 2:46 AM, Classic-Burger said:

Think of his rank, he would no longer be capable of doing forced labor due to his experience and prestige. 

It would be interesting if for every elite soldier and champion you could have slaves.

He becomes a landowner.

That would happen with the Spartans and maybe the Romans.

Soldiers who gain experience no longer do the work of a laborer.

 

 

isn't that champs?

Athenian spearman can promote to champs...

in historical several CS can promote up to champs.

Edited Sunday at 02:13 by Emacz

[Classic-Burger]

6 hours ago, Emacz said:

isn't that champs?

Athenian spearman can promote to champs...

in historical several CS can promote up to champs.

I didn't know that, I have to try playing with them.

[BeTe]

Yeah CS is kinda annoying and gameplay in 0ad is not that dynamic as it could be.

I have 3 brainstorm ideas for this 

(1) Have you guys ever discussed to increase eco difference between CS and Women/Villager?

What I mean is now we have situation that CS has better Wood/Metal/Stone gather rate then Villager. Why not make Women like 1.5-2x faster gather rates then CS (that is nerf all gather rates for CS by 1.5-2x).

(2) Allow building Towers anywhere on map, even on enemy's territories.

(3) Add some Upgrade/downgrade buttons to CS so they need like 30s to be turned into fighting unit. In theory, you can moveout with CSs and click on "Upgrade to soldier" and when you arrive armors will be ready and opponent will need same time to upgrade so it will also damage his eco. After attack, you click "Downgrade to Worker" and by time you return back to your base, your soldier will become worker. 

[Deicide4u]

24 minutes ago, BeTe said:

Add some Upgrade/downgrade buttons to CS so they need like 30s to be turned into fighting unit. In theory, you can moveout with CSs and click on "Upgrade to soldier" and when you arrive armors will be ready and opponent will need same time to upgrade so it will also damage his eco. After attack, you click "Downgrade to Worker" and by time you return back to your base, your soldier will become worker. 

This is a great suggestion, and it's not the first time I see it proposed. I wouldn't make it 30 seconds, 10 seconds is already enough. 15 seconds max.

[BeTe]

1 minute ago, Deicide4u said:

This is a great suggestion, and it's not the first time I see it proposed. I wouldn't make it 30 seconds, 10 seconds is already enough. 15 seconds max.

It's kinda weird mechanics, but why not try since we want to be weird (different to classic RTSes/AOE).

Question is just technically how complex is that to implement for programmers.

Ofc, time is to be discussed and tested.

Eventually time can be different in each Phase if needed.

[BeTe]

P.S.

i have one more sub-idea: 

move Eco upgrades from Storehouse/farms to Blacksmith. I didn't think a lot about that, but I guess it'd make some earlier timing pushes more viable.

Tho idk if you will be able to do enough damage to pay off delaying eco upgrades? 

[guerringuerrin]

It's clear there's a lot of room for balance improvement, but please don't remove CS. It's one of the few most distinctive features of the game. Let's not revert everything to the existing standard. Let's not turn 0ad into yet another RTs

[Classic-Burger]

4 hours ago, BeTe said:

Allow building Towers anywhere on map, even on enemy's territories

Maybe the sentry tower.

[Classic-Burger]

4 hours ago, BeTe said:

 

(3) Add some Upgrade/downgrade buttons to CS so they need like 30s to be turned into fighting unit. In theory, you can moveout with CSs and click on "Upgrade to soldier" and when you arrive armors will be ready and opponent will need same time to upgrade so it will also damage his eco. After attack, you click "Downgrade to Worker" and by time you return back to your base, your soldier will become worker. 

It is very annoying and inconvenient,  you would have to do a lot of micro.