SelectionBox Targeting

[Atrik]

After a quick test, I think it wouldn't be hard to create a CHEAT (Controllable Hover Entities Area Targeting) selection box targeting feature.
The goal here would be to be able to use box selection while holding a hotkey to order selection to target specified enemy units.

This would look like this:

1. Select your army
2. Hold down targeting hotkey
3. Box select hover enemy units

Then your selected units would be assigned to target all units found in the box selection. This would nicely mitigate aggressive pathing where for example :

• Half of your army get baited into splitting instead of attacking enemy army because a single unit happens to be behind your army
• Your entire army projectiles are thrown to a single enemy (overkill or hero dancing)
• Allow to assign ranged units to fire at back-line units, easier then with ALT hotkey

Overall making micro-management funnier then having to make 300 click to avoid hero dance, yet making hero dancing still very good, but just easier to counter micro it. Micromanagement will obviously still be intensive, just you remove the part of spam clicking ALT, and replace it with a better fitted feature for targeting and spreading fire.

I'd like to give one more illustration of how micro-management would look like with this.
When playing xbows units, if you are retreating, but at some point, turn back to fire a volley, all units will shoot at the single most closest enemy. You CANNOT be fast enough with ALT clicks to spread shots, resulting in massive overkill. With this box targeting, you could make the volley spread on more enemies units following your units.

In my opinion that this would be far greater approach to have a user-controllable feature then having solutions like :
randomized targeting by @real_tabasco_sauce Or autonomous re-targeting by @real_tabasco_sauce.

Edited Tuesday at 00:05 by Atrik

[Ginnungagap]

I'd love to see box targeting as an additional game mechanic.
If it also prevents overkill and luring, that would be a welcome improvement for me.

[guerringuerrin]

This idea is interesting to me. And I think both randomized targeting and this area targeting can coexist without major problems.
The only thing I don't like is the name you chose xD and also you can't vote affirmatively both options are negative =(

[Ginnungagap]

I have the impression that Atrik might be a bit annoyed by the discussions in other threads about creating a cheat mod. I suggest calling this feature AIMBOT (AIM Box Optimized Targeting), which might (not really) help avoiding such claims for this feature.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, Atrik said:

Or autonomous re-targeting by @real_tabasco_sauce.

You have mischaracterized this second one. It is about preventing units from getting stuck endlessly attacking a building when higher preference targets are nearby.

On group target selection, I am 50/50. I prefer a more elegant approach to the problem, but as of now I see no harm in it.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

5 minutes ago, Ginnungagap said:

I have the impression that Atrik might be a bit annoyed by the discussions in other threads about creating a cheat mod. I suggest calling this feature AIMBOT (AIM Box Optimized Targeting), which might (not really) help avoiding such claims for this feature.

yeah the acronym choice is quite a reach.

[Atrik]

I'm just setting low expectations on how this thread could end up because of the previous one, indeed @Ginnungagap, @guerringuerrin. Ideally this thread will instead answer game-play questions. There is also the question that I might be able to make the js do this, but if such a feature would ever be considered to add to vanilla, then a dedicated engine function might have to be developed, for a single command to be made instead of the js issuing 1 command per unit in selection.

[Ginnungagap]

When we think about introducing such a feature, I see another possible variation of target selection for a aimbox and a problem to talk about.

CHEAT for group target selection:

5 hours ago, Atrik said:

1. Select your army
2. Hold down targeting hotkey
3. Box select hover enemy units

Then your selected units would be assigned to target all units found in the box selection

While this type of selection, along with optimized targeting, would help minimize countless repetitions of ALT clicks and open up new possibilities for micromanaging, it still wouldn't prevent luring if a unit selected by the CHEAT moves away from the battlefield and is subsequently followed by your own previously selected units.


AIMBOT for attack area target selection:

1. Select your army
2. Hold down targeting hotkey
3. Box select hover over attack area

Then your selected units would be assigned to target all units found in the box, selecting new targets entering and unselecting when leaving the AIMBOT.

I don't know if this approach would be too complex or even possible to realise, but it would also offer a way to protect areas as a supplement to, or instead of patrol move. Luring would no longer be possible, as units would no longer be targeted when they leave the AIMBOT.

Preferably, in order to maintain good control over this mechanic, it would be helpful if the selected areas remained slightly highlighted on the map while the AIMBOT is active.

Edited March 22 by Ginnungagap
variations renamed for better context of the following posts

[Atrik]

22 minutes ago, Ginnungagap said:

While this type of selection, along with optimized targeting, would help minimize countless repetitions of ALT clicks and open up new possibilities for micromanaging, it still wouldn't prevent luring if a unit selected by the aimbox moves away from the battlefield and is subsequently followed by your own previously selected units.

I was thinking of something that isn't even optimized, as user can already use the box selection tool to define which and approx how much units would be targeted. So basically making smaller selections if you want to really get the most out of it. I think this would make sens because in a battle, you might also gain value by choosing exactly where your ranged aim at (for example you want to weaken one of the flank for combo a cavalry charge, or because it is the closest to a fort that the enemy might retreat too at some point etc...).

Spoiler

for (let i; i < ownEntities.length; i++){
	ownEntityID = i;
	enemyEntityID = i modulo ownEntities.length;
	Engine.attack(
  "Entity" : ownEntities[ownEntityID],
  "Target" : enemyEntities[enemyEntityID]
  )
}

As for hero dancing, you would be 'immune' if you already issued a CHEAT and units in the box are still alive, or you could make a quick response with a fresh one. So I do think it mitigate it heavily.

 

48 minutes ago, Ginnungagap said:

Aimbox for attack area target selection:

1. Select your army
2. Hold down targeting hotkey
3. Box select hover over attack area

Then your selected units would be assigned to target all units found in the box, selecting new targets entering and unselecting when leaving the aimbox.

I don't know if this approach would be too complex or even possible to realise, but it would also offer a way to protect areas as a supplement to, or instead of patrol move. Luring would no longer be possible, as units would no longer be targeted when they leave the aimbox.

I guess AIMBOT would be feasible but indeed, more complicated, and too similar use case as patrol. Also if the main concern is that CHEAT doesn't mitigate hero dancing or any baiting, I think this isn't true.
The main goal of CHEAT is to be able to make a single order to respond to baiting instead of being forced to make 300 alt clicks because someone is hero dancing.

[chrstgtr]

Something has to be done about sniping, and I think something like this should be integrated into vanilla. This seems like a good thing to test in the community mod. 

There was a thread a while back where we discuss different possible area attack options--what I think you are describing is how I would probably prefer it. 

[guerringuerrin]

2 hours ago, Atrik said:

I'm just setting low expectations on how this thread could end up because of the previous one, indeed @Ginnungagap, @guerringuerrin

I would be more optimistic about the community's opinion on this feature and avoid starting with negative propaganda =).In fact, I would go so far as to remove any special labels that might give it a negative connotation and simply call it Target Area or something like that.

I'm in favor of both features you and @Ginnungagap described. Perhaps you should simply go from less to more, starting with the most basic features and gradually incorporating those small improvements.

 

Edited March 22 by guerringuerrin

[Atrik]

I added the sounds @guerringuerrin, but for the cursor maybe @real_tabasco_sauce can help because when I try it, it impact unrelated stuff...
It feels very good to handle.

To test it : BoxTargeting.zip
It will allow "Force Attack" Hotkey (F by default) + Selection Box to make your selection attack units hovered!

I've reset the poll and assigned old votes to "no". Hoping to help this topic mature with this demo.

[guerringuerrin]

Nice work, @Atrik!
As @chrstgtr mentioned above, this seems like a good alternative to overcome the sniping problem we've discussed in other threads.
Futhermore, I think that combining this feature with the other two features @real_tabasco_sauce is working on can generate a more organic unit attacking behavior while preventing excesive click spam.
This is good  . Thanks for working on it.
I'm looking forward to test this tonight 

[roscany]

Hey everyone! I'm bored on vacation so I thought I'd chime in.

I'm all for advancing the game, but this seems like an extra step people need to enact in order to be good at the game (13-1500). I don't use hotkeys; I do see their benefit, but much like using a mouse instead of a trackpad, I'm fine with my current play, lol. I don't like my hobbies to feel like work, and this would feel like work for me to learn, but that's prob a me-problem. When I "snipe" I shift click units that I'm targeting with small groups and I think this serves me pretty decent in the moments where I have the time to target specific units. When I don't have time, it's usually because I'm under duress for x, y, and z, which I think is an important part of the game. It feels pretty rewarding when I do have the time, as my opening has gone the way I intended. (I know the ALT key does something, but I could never figure out how to use it, lol)

You all know the mechanics of the game better than I do, but this feels like fixing something that isn't broken to me. @chrstgtr mentioned "something needs to be done about sniping," but I don't see sniping as often as previous versions of the game. I think it peaked during Said's Maurya phase, but melee was buffed to counter it. I think melee could still benefit from a buff, or alternatively the cost of basic range units could be increased. This would likely lead to smaller army sizes and fewer ranged units in battles, which I think would reduce the prevalence of sniping. 

Observationally, I think its a non-issue. But again, I'm pretty dumb so I've probably missed the main point entirely lol. 

[ffm2]

I'm a bit neutral regarding the feature. It over complicates things, although it gets rid of the click-spam-sniping. I'd rather have a balance where it makes more sense to kill the melee units first rather than attacking the archers behind them. I like the other sniping actions as they are (hero including the luring part, cavalry in groups etc.) that don't involve click spam. But the balance will perpetually change with each version.

Edited Tuesday at 06:56 by ffm2

[Atrik]

If this feature do provides an alternative to alt of shift spam clicks for targeting ranged units, it is not the only problem it solves. Alt and especially shift clicking with small selection (8 units for ex) would likely still be often more optimized.
This, instead provides a solution to frustrating scenario where you need to make hundreds of clicks just to avoid catastrophic outcomes:

• Hero dance, is often asymmetrical micro for the player doing it, because defender needs to make tones of clicks very very fast just to avoid 0 damage dealing of your entire army. With box targeting, you can react to it with a single command instead (you might need to repeat it every few secs, but it's not as spammy).
• Overkills, when foes are placed in a way where your entire army will shoot at a single unit, there was no way to prevent it but making a full sniping cycle. With box targeting you can avoid this, just by hovering units you intended to shoot at, and not the single most closest enemy.
• Pathing, a lot of times, using attack move leads to weird army behavior where half of your units just move away the intended direction to chase a meaningless unit, like a cav, a female, a unit that just spawned out of a barrack in the back of the enemy base you are attacking.... Box Targeting allow you to define where do units need to go and fight instead.

Basically all cases where you feel like your units get side-tracked for arbitrary reasons, you have a feature to avoid these situation.

@ffm2 @roscany, I don't think this feature is adding complexity, to the contrary: It's a single command that solve multiple micro issues that previously required to learn to detect them, a lot of tricks to mitigate them, or responses when they occur. It also make perfect sens to use the existing "Force attack" hotkey, so it's not even adding a new one.

This input is begging to be added, it's 5 line of codes in input.js (a few more for visual and audio effects)

[chrstgtr]

1 hour ago, Atrik said:

@ffm2 @roscany, I don't think this feature is adding complexity, to the contrary: It's a single command that solve multiple micro issues that previously required to learn to detect them, a lot of tricks to mitigate them, or responses when they occur. It also make perfect sens to use the existing "Force attack" hotkey, so it's not even adding a new one.

 

I see where @roscany is coming from but don't fully agree. It's the reason why I think this is a good candidate for com mod testing. 

Edited Tuesday at 12:22 by chrstgtr

[real_tabasco_sauce]

yeah we could test even a proof of concept like this in the com mod.

I think it could be made quite intuitive, like by using the right click button for making a box while holding f. I am working on a different solution but couldn't be added to the mod anyway.

[MarcusAureliu#s]

@Atrik whats the "target hotkey" ?

[roscany]

7 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I think it could be made quite intuitive, like by using the right click button for making a box while holding f.

Please consider us touchpad players when implementing this, lol. We matter too! Currently I use a two-finger click to right click.

I'm on the same page as @ffm2, I think. I don't really see myself using this, and I hope it doesn't prevent me from staying at my competitive level, but unfortunately I think it will.

In my opinion, the root of this "problem" is that armies are too big and too cheap, especially with regard to ranged units in this game. But I guess that's a different conversation...

[guerringuerrin]

8 minutes ago, MarcusAureliu#s said:

@Atrik whats the "target hotkey" ?

 

11 hours ago, Atrik said:

It also make perfect sens to use the existing "Force attack" hotkey, so it's not even adding a new one.

I think it's the same as Force Attack standard hotkey. you can check at hotkeys section which one you have asigned for and remap it if you want to

[guerringuerrin]

11 minutes ago, roscany said:

Please consider us touchpad players when implementing this, lol. We matter too! Currently I use a two-finger click to right click.

I'm on the same page as @ffm2, I think. I don't really see myself using this, and I hope it doesn't prevent me from staying at my competitive level, but unfortunately I think it will.

In my opinion, the root of this "problem" is that armies are too big and too cheap, especially with regard to ranged units in this game. But I guess that's a different conversation...

In fact I think this will make targeting ranged units much more easy to you if you play with touch pad since you could avoid doing the shift click action repeteadly. And you could still doing that if you want to. 

Also, if this feature is combined with this other feature randomized target  I think we will end up not needing to keep doing the sniping manually in the most cases 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 22:32 by guerringuerrin

[roscany]

2 hours ago, guerringuerrin said:

In fact I think this will make targeting ranged units much more easy to you if you play with touch pad since you could avoid doing the shift click action repeteadly. And you could still doing that if you want to. 

 

Probably, but I guess what I'm trying to convey more broadly is that using hotkeys shouldn't be necessary to stay "good" at this game. And by that I guess I mean perform military actions. 

I don't use them, but I'm all for using hotkeys/control groups to select units, buildings, training units/techs when building are selected, building different types of buildings, changing formations, etc. but using them to impact fights to this degree feels like overkill (ha!). A lot of players better than me use hotkeys to do these things, and all the power to them! They're better than me, but I can still hang. I'm not even really a fan of attack-move, but I do use it. I'd rather players pay closer attention to where their units are walking. I guess that is a hotkey I do use? I can see its benefit during big fights, but I don't really find it buggy like @Atrik suggests. 

I can stay at a pretty similar level to those who are in this conversation right now without using hotkeys, but this box-target thing seems like a different type of hotkey entirely. Is there another hotkey that does anything relatively similar that is already in place beyond attack move? 
 

Edited Wednesday at 00:34 by roscany

[Atrik]

@MarcusAureliu#s the hotkey used is the very basic :

session.attack

It's F by default since a27, for "Force Attack".

It's likely you'll want to use this when (alt or shift) sniping to avoid units to start gathering if you miss-click (in a forest for example). However it's not as good as it used to be with a26 "Ctrl" for "Attack" since now this isn't going to make an "attack move" in case you miss-click, so units will walk into suicide instead......... It would be  interesting to know if someone was able to restore "Ctrl + Alt" sniping behavior from a26, which was: attack target if possible, else attack move.

 

@roscany A gui button is likely to be added if this is implemented. But players that don't use mouse nor keyboard are kind of an exception.... Also as previously stated, it's not going to impact you that much relative to now. The current method of sniping will still be optimal in most cases. This would be like an alternative for less spamy clicks, but less efficient, and most use cases will be to avoid baiting and for pathing in general.

Edited Wednesday at 10:56 by Atrik