A poll on the new naval system

[Oxenstierna]

I think you have to decide whether you want a game that is as authentic as possible or a game balance that ignores this. In the time in which 0AD is set, the navy was not as usable as it is today. After the Romans had practically the entire Mediterranean under control, ship development stagnated. Arrow ships did not exist in the traditional sense, at least you couldn't sink ships with them, at most you could set them on fire. In principle, all war galleys were designed for ramming or you tried to capture the enemy. Special weapons like the Corvus or Harpax could be added to the Roman navy. For example, I think it would be fun if you could add pirates to sea maps as an option, like treasures, which can get on your nerves during setup. And also, as with delenda est, I think a naval shipyard is better than just one harbor for all units. But that's just my opinion...

[ShadowOfHassen]

5 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Skirmish maps?

Do you mean the random maps? I don't play those -- I guess I should, though. I like the handcrafted maps.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

7 minutes ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

Do you mean the random maps? I don't play those -- I guess I should, though. I like the handcrafted maps.

That's what I mean, there are more Naval skirmish maps than what you mentioned.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

6 hours ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

Do you mean the random maps? I don't play those -- I guess I should, though. I like the handcrafted maps.

random maps are also handcrafted. Just programmatically.

[TheCJ]

Give all ships atleast "land ram-level" of pierce resistance (I think its 35?); its massive wood, no amount of arrows is gonna sink a rowing ship.

Give every civ a version of the ram ship. This will become the "normal" warship, used against other ships. Reduce the garrison capacity significantly or introduce a debuff to its speed depending on amount of garrisoned soldiers.

Revert some aspects of the "Arrow Ship" and rename it to "Transport Ship"; The arrows it shoots should be random again and scale with the amount of troops garrisoned, but prefer land units over ships and buildings. This takes on the role of "anti-landunit" warship, used for harassing cs and women close to water. This ship should not cost metal, as it is basically defenseless against ram ships.

Move Scout Ships to p1.

 

This way there are strategic considerations; is it worth to invest in some ram ships to defend your arrow ships which can disrupt the enemy economy? Or can you get away without defending them? Do you spread your units between many ram ships to cross a river or risk losing many at once by putting them in one transport ship (but use less res for ships)?

Its a bit of a rock-paper-scissors game; only ram ships dont do much on land, only land units dont do much against arrow ships, only arrow ships dont do much against ram ships.

[Arup]

1 hour ago, TheCJ said:

Move Scout Ships to p1.

Make them weaker. make it so going to p2 increases their attack and health

[Arup]

1 hour ago, TheCJ said:

This takes on the role of "anti-landunit" warship

Remove 3x damage multiplier against ships as well

[ShadowOfHassen]

8 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

random maps are also handcrafted. Just programmatically.

I didn't know that. I'll have to try those out!

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Coast Range and Migration are the two new ones. They are not fully naval, but hybrid maps.

[Classic-Burger]

On 26/02/2025 at 8:20 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I'd say almost 100% of games of 0 A.D.'s type have no garrison effects for ships. 

They should gain more speed due to size and crew of rowers.

Special ramming ships Which is known as melee ships.

[Classic-Burger]

On 27/02/2025 at 2:04 PM, Oxenstierna said:

After the Romans had practically the entire Mediterranean under control, ship development stagnated.

There was no need for innovation as there were no Thalassocracies to conquer.

[Gurken Khan]

37 minutes ago, Classic-Burger said:

They should gain more speed due to size and crew of rowers.

I believe the crew is built-in; additional passengers would make the ship slower, due to increased weight. (Don't implement that!)

[Classic-Burger]

16 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

I believe the crew is built-in; additional passengers would make the ship slower, due to increased weight. (Don't implement that!)

Cargo crew and rowers should not be the same thing.

For example, infantry should count as rowers. Women, animals, and high-ranking units should not.

[TheCJ]

A quick google search tells us the largest army rome could muster in the time period was roughly 150.000. Ingame, you seldom have more than 150 land units. Therefore its logical to assume one population unit represents roughly 1000 people.

"A" ship that takes up 3 population space would require 3000 men; since a quinquereme had a crew of 300, we can assume one ship represents 10. Some sources say Rome used up to 500 ships in their campaign against the pirates ca. 70 BC, which would be 50 ships in "0ad terms", which is (coincidently?) exactly the maximum amount of ships you could make, if you keep 50 economic population (which is pretty normal).

It checks out. A ship (atleast a quinquereme) should take up 3 pop space and it should not get faster with more people inside. Because a quinquereme doesnt magically get more space for more rowers, just because you put more soldiers on deck.

If you want a ship with more rowers, you need to build it differently, it would be an additional type of ship in the dock. But nobody would build it, if it took up more population.

 

The alternative to the current approach would be to make the ships barely moveable without garrison, but make them take up 0 population. Then you could put up to three soldiers inside to increase their speed up to their (current) base value.

Edited March 2 by TheCJ

[Grautvornix]

Frankly, I'd rather not change movement speed of the current ships. Transport capacity is payload and not crew, so that adding soldiers should not increase rowing speed. From the game perspective I would also not like to reduce speed if loaded.

 

What I would suggest, however, is to show if a ship has a payload or not (like a garrisoned building). Identifying which ships to select from the fleet in oder to land an army is sometimes quite time consuming and error-prone.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Grautvornix said:

 

What I would suggest, however, is to show if a ship has a payload or not (like a garrisoned building). Identifying which ships to select from the fleet in oder to land an army is sometimes quite time consuming and error-prone.

Indeed, I'd like to add garrison flags for ships.

 

[Gurken Khan]

43 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I'd like to add garrison flags for ships.

Hurray for more garrison flags!

[Obelix]

For garrison flags for ships see #4581.

[Obelix]

On 27/02/2025 at 5:02 PM, Atrik said:

Make the bridges destructible on Dodescanese I want to ram bridges with new ram boats.

I just started a separate discussion: