Champion cavalry improvements

[Fabius]

Definitely agree about the speed reduction, current cavalry is way to fast on screen, you barely get any time to react to their coming and going

[LienRag]

On 16/06/2025 at 11:41 PM, TheCJ said:

I agree. Melee cavalry needs to be faster than ranged cavalry if its supposed to be a counter.

Light melee cavalry needs to be faster than ranged cavalry. FTFY.

Ranged cavalry, being light, should certainly be faster than heavy cavalry.

 

If we make disengaging from the enemy quite costly (as it was historically) either in time or in blood (the choice between the two options being made by the player through specific formations), then we can have light cavalry engaging the ranged cavalry and the heavy cavalry coming behind them to finish the job.

 

Is it difficult to implement Charges mechanism with cooldown timer after use ?

That would allow even light infantry to somehow counter ranged cavalry, and more so for champion cavalry.

[LienRag]

1 hour ago, Fabius said:

Definitely agree about the speed reduction, current cavalry is way to fast on screen, you barely get any time to react to their coming and going

That should be addressed by specific anti-cavalry formations (again, as it was historically).

[Fabius]

15 minutes ago, LienRag said:

That should be addressed by specific anti-cavalry formations (again, as it was historically).

Formations do not currently confer bonuses, so while that is a nice idea there is currently no method for application in that manner. So until something alters that, bonuses will have to coded onto the units themselves

[LienRag]

I wasn't thinking about bonus, but about AI : put the vulnerable units behind melee ones, close gaps, have the fast units engage the cavalry and the strong then come and destroy them.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

In the short term, I think we should go with the health nerf for the regular melee champ cav, and for the cataphracts which are so tanky, we can significantly reduce their speed, which will create better differentiation for the cataphracts (possibly also nerf the +100 hp tech for them too).

[Classic-Burger]

38 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

In the short term, I think we should go with the health nerf for the regular melee champ cav, and for the cataphracts which are so tanky, we can significantly reduce their speed, which will create better differentiation for the cataphracts (possibly also nerf the +100 hp tech for them too).

It's a good idea, they were supposed to tire quickly, couldn't fight for long, and were slow for cavalry.

[Deicide4u]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

In the short term, I think we should go with the health nerf for the regular melee champ cav

Bring back 130 HP champion cavalry, lol.

Good changes, thanks.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

https://gitea.wildfiregames.com/0ad/0ad/pulls/8380

[Atrik]

18 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

https://gitea.wildfiregames.com/0ad/0ad/pulls/8380

• Bactrians Chavs are have the same stats as Cataphract in a27, they are used more often for champ cav because of the Persian pop bonus. So they'll be nerfed more then Catapharct, intentionally?
• Your armor and HP changes barely change cav HP equivalent, but lowered it's speed, so they'll be worse at chasing other cavs but as good against infantry. A bit less map control too.

[chrstgtr]

On 24/09/2025 at 11:36 PM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

 (possibly also nerf the +100 hp tech for them too).

I don't like this tech. It lacks originality and is OP. I would prefer it to be replaced with something entirely different. 

3 minutes ago, Atrik said:

• Your armor and HP changes barely change cav HP equivalent, but lowered it's speed, so they'll be worse at chasing other cavs but as good against infantry. A bit less map control too.

I don't get this either. Basically the nerf is to make them slower and lower their special health tech? That's fine, i guess, relative to other cav. But all melee champ cav remains OP vs inf. 

Edited 3 hours ago by chrstgtr

[real_tabasco_sauce]

13 minutes ago, Atrik said:

Bactrians Chavs are have the same stats as Cataphract in a27, they are used more often for champ cav because of the Persian pop bonus. So they'll be nerfed more then Catapharct, intentionally?

bactrian cav also get the 'cataphract mixin'. So they are currently receiving the same nerf. Do you think they should be nerfed extra? If so, I'd probably disqualify them from getting the nisean war horse tech, making that tech unique to sele.

15 minutes ago, Atrik said:

Your armor and HP changes barely change cav HP equivalent, but lowered it's speed, so they'll be worse at chasing other cavs but as good against infantry. A bit less map control too.

yeah that's the idea. It creates a more noticeable difference between cataphract units and regular champ cav.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

15 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

It lacks originality and is OP. I would prefer it to be replaced with something entirely different. 

me too, but I don't have an idea to replace it. So since we are talking about nerfs, better to just nerf it for now. (+100 hp is crazy)

[Atrik]

25 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

bactrian cav also get the 'cataphract mixin'. So they are currently receiving the same nerf. Do you think they should be nerfed extra?

I got confused by the template name "cataphract mixin", thinking it was applying only to cataphract. No I don't think they need additional nerf, the speed debuff might already remove too much of there utility and still have them as strong as frontliner. I guess we'll see, if the counter damage increase for spears have been dismissed already.

46 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Basically the nerf is to make them slower and lower their special health tech? That's fine, i guess, relative to other cav. But all melee champ cav remains OP vs inf. 

Yes but actually 'normal' champ cav only get HP debuff, so net nerf, against all including against inf there (If I'm not mistaken again).