Status of "Cheat" Mods

[Atrik]

What attracted me in the first place to games of this genre is strategy, macro, teamwork...

@Grapjas if you get satisfaction out of making repetitive tasks that's ok. The mechanical skill of clicky stuff for me just gets in the way of game enjoyment, I prefer having time to think when playing rather then just only learning to queue up brain tasks.

I don't know exactly what proportion of players would actually prefer game with less clicky UI, but it's surely not 0%.
Also once again with remarks on skill and leagues and whatnot, I'm considered the same when balancing a game with me disallowed to use "automation", I let you conclude what you want of that, eventually stooping to make stupid remarks on this being related to """"""""skill"""""""".

[MetaPhyZic]

29 minutes ago, Atrik said:

What attracted me in the first place to games of this genre is strategy, macro, teamwork...

The cope of rushed plebs is insane here.

[Grapjas]

1 hour ago, Atrik said:

if you get satisfaction out of making repetitive tasks that's ok.

I mean alot of games have tasks/routine that come with the genre, but that's not what i said anyway. You still need to adapt to the game and what's happening around you and be faster than the enemy.

1 hour ago, Atrik said:

I prefer having time to think when playing rather then just only learning to queue up brain tasks.

And thats excactly the unfair advantage it gives opposed to someone who doesn't use it, dont you see that? You're being really obtuse about it tbh.

1 hour ago, Atrik said:

I don't know exactly what proportion of players would actually prefer game with less clicky UI, but it's surely not 0%.

I'm sure there are people that would love to play it. It honestly sounds like total war games are better suited for your RTS itch if all you want to do is slay but w/e.

[Atrik]

57 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

I mean alot of games have tasks/routine that come with the genre, but that's not what i said anyway. You still need to adapt to the game and what's happening around you and be faster than the enemy.

One can only agree. Is there a screnario or build that you think the autotrainer feature doesn't allow you to adapt your production too? In my experience you have much better control, and feeling of control of your production and army composition with the suggested autotrainer overlay.

1 hour ago, Grapjas said:

And thats excactly the unfair advantage it gives opposed to someone who doesn't use it, dont you see that? You're being really obtuse about it tbh.

You probably make very informed judgement, and you seems to have stake in mp. What's your lobby account name if I might ask? Anyway you might also be one that will start replying with quick claims and insults, I might be guilty of doing it too but better I stop replying to this thread.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

It doesn't take any multiplayer or even 0ad experience to understand that automating a signification portion of the game provides an unfair advantage. I wouldn't go hounding grapjas to "verify" if his level is high enough to critique your mod, anyone of any level can do so just like anyone can see through your self-serving argumentation and your dishonest downplaying of the advantages you get from progui.

[MetaPhyZic]

[Grapjas]

4 hours ago, Atrik said:

Anyway you might also be one that will start replying with quick claims and insults, I might be guilty of doing it too but better I stop replying to this thread.

Yeah it's gotta be exhausting being obtuse on purpose i guess. It's wasted energy. But now some volunteers have to find a solution to make games fair, which would've happened sooner or later anyway so its not a bad thing persé.

Onto that subject, i think a "no mods" toggle for the host would be nice thats on by default. But im not sure 0ad supports loading/unloading mods on the fly yet, seeing how you need to restart the game if you download a mod. On the other hand coding while playing does live update. Haven't looked into that much yet, and if it's on the cpp side of things im not even going to lol.

Maybe a mod can be made that detects unsigned mods or shows what files people have altered.

Edited February 19 by Grapjas

[Seleucids]

41 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

Onto that subject, i think a "no mods" toggle for the host would be nice thats on by default. But im not sure 0ad supports loading/unloading mods on the fly yet, seeing how you need to restart the game if you download a mod. On the other hand coding while playing does live update.

Unfortunately hot loading doesn't happen normally. The game only scans the mod folder once on boot, then never scans again. Even if you put in a new mod, it will not be detected by the mod selector until you restart the game. 

However, this is not an impossible problem:

1. We can always load a dummy mod which has all the dummy file placeholders, so that the engine is forced to consider all of the files there in live. Then, if we need to modify a file, we copy in and replace the dummy on the fly. To deactivate, we overwrite with dummy values. 

2. We can add engine commands to check the mod folder more often for presence of new mods and hotload files. 

45 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

Maybe a mod can be made that detects unsigned mods or shows what files people have altered.

I'm afraid this might have to go to engine level. You can't really see into other people's mod files without hacking their computer filesystem. 0AD lobby 100% trusts your own mod reporter script during game registration, which only reports the title and versions of your active mods. The exact contents of your mod folders will never be transmitted to anyone.

On top of this, people can edit this script to fool the lobby and other clients. 

 

[Seleucids]

"Controversial" mods such as ProGUI and chat hacks often leave behind unwanted signatures that expose them. Having a machine learning detector program running besides 0ad might be a solution.

For example, we can implement ffm's script as a separate live application that sends a system message whenever abnormal activity is detected. Unsolicited behaviours such as private chat between specs and players will also leave a warning in everyone's log. Reveal map and other cheat commands will result in "invalid command" being printed in logs. If too much of these occur in one game then you know somebody is messing around. 

[Atrik]

I was wondering how geniuses would solve the issue at hand. Tell us more please @Grapjas. The machine learning suggestion from @Seleucids sounds very promising, thoughts?

We could also think of a partnership with this very reputable solution : https://www.easy.ac/

Edited February 20 by Atrik

[Seleucids]

Sadly anti-cheat solutions don't seem to work on Linux. 

Anti-cheat programs be like:  Linux user = Hacker  + cheater -> ban

Linux users would have many more games available to them if it wasn't for anti-cheat engines; they are the true roadblocks; the compatibility issue is already handled very well by WINE and PROTON. 

[Grapjas]

10 hours ago, Seleucids said:

I'm afraid this might have to go to engine level.

I'm pretty sure someone can recompile the game and still play with people in the lobby if all you did was disable a check. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can confirm.

10 hours ago, Seleucids said:

You can't really see into other people's mod files without hacking their computer filesystem.

A checksum can be networked, what isn't there can be made. Still leaves the problem above though. But you'd cut out a decent portion of cheaters, untill someone publishes an alternative 0ad build they can install with a simple .exe.

10 hours ago, Seleucids said:

which only reports the title and versions of your active mods

It only shows signed mods afaik. Or better said, mods downloaded through the ingame downloader, which is the same thing.