Cant build CC with enemy unit on construction site

[strat0spheric]

Hello Forum,

i want to report this issue with a known bug, that can be used or "misused" as a technique to prevent opponent from building his CC under nomad game with ceasefire.

As i know that in 0ad this bug can happen by chance with own units on any building, it can even be exploited in the aforementioned condition. I guess it is not an easy task to solve the bug, but i would like to discuss this issue as i have the opinion that it is unfair gameplay to use this bug strategically in the minutes of ceasefire in a nomad game. Preventing the construction of an opponents CC in the minutes of ceasefire leads to an unfair advantage for the game.  What are your opinions on that?

[alre]

The question is: if this is a bug, what's the intended behaviour then?

[Genava55]

3 hours ago, alre said:

The question is: if this is a bug, what's the intended behaviour then?

This is simply a flaw in the game design exploited by players. The question is simply to know if it is an accepted behavior.

Since it is impossible to give the right to build over enemy units, a new feature should be implemented giving a possibility to the victim to defend itself. And since it is complicated, requiring new ideas, coding etc. The team will give up. So this flaw will be accepted as a normal strategy.

Happy to save you some time.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Probably the best way to go about it would be not letting foundations be visible to enemies until it starts being built. There are also gameplay reasons to do this that occur much more frequently.

 

 

[Genava55]

30 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Probably the best way to go about it would be not letting foundations be visible to enemies until it starts being built. There are also gameplay reasons to do this that occur much more frequently.

 

 

I think it is the case in aoe series. The construction site is not seen by other players before starting to build it.

@strat0spheric is it happening only by observing the construction site or the players swarm the future base with several units to prevent the construction by blocking the best spots?

Edited Tuesday at 16:00 by Genava55

[AInur]

The solution to this problem is to not play Nomad Mode.

The conventional setting for Nomad Mode is 5 minutes of ceasefire at the beginning and medium resources for players to build a Civic Center. In @strat0spheric's game, another player purposefully set his cavalry to stand  on Strat0spheric's CC foundation to prevent him from building. Due to the ceasefire, he could not kill that enemy unit nor move it away. He cannot delete his foundation, otherwise he would not be able to afford a new CC. This removed him from the game until the end of the ceasefire.

In a normal game, he can just kill in enemy unit easily.

 

The real problem here is not the foundation or a technical bug; it's the Nomad Mode's design flaw. A ceasefire must be imposed in order to prevent players killing each other immediately on spawn, especially considering that some factions have stronger starting military units than others. The starting points are completely random so the game is more influenced by luck than skill or strategy. A potential improvement for Nomad Mode is to allow the instant build of the first CC. This would solve 5 underlying problems:

1. Using units to prevent others from building as described here
2. Unfair advantage of the Mauryas elephant
3. Inexperienced players deleting their CC foundation and not being able to afford a new one
4. No need for a ceasefire as units can be garrisoned inside immediately - enables early rushing strategy.
5. Wastes no time waiting for the handful of units to build a CC.

However, with this being said, allowing buildings to build on units is fine; it happens in other games. We should allow units to walk out of the foundation but not walking into it. The construction can continue in the meantime.

 

An even more flawed game mode is Regicide mode, but that's for another topic.

[Lion.Kanzen]

In games like Starcraft you can't attack the placement of a building and it's not visible.

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 20:15 by Lion.Kanzen

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, AInur said:

He cannot delete his foundation, otherwise he would not be able to afford a new CC. This removed him from the game until the end of the ceasefire.

you can delete unbuilt foundations and get resources back.

if you delete a partially built cc, you get a fraction of your resources back.

Edited Tuesday at 21:21 by real_tabasco_sauce

[strat0spheric]

Thank you all for the responses. I think there are some good suggestions on solving this maybe in future releases. The idea, that a CC in nomad mode is built instantly without the ability to be blocked by an enemy unit would definitely solve the problem. Making it invisible is maybe not really working, as it might be clear where the CC is going to be built by observing the units.

In this case, as i described the situation only 1 cav following my units was enough to observe my target location and block building by putting this cav on top of the site. I did not delete the CC, because of 2 reasons: 1. there was only this spot available, as all other closer areas were forest - rebuilding somewhere else would have led to find completely new area -> too much time. 2. i was afraid to loose resources by deletion  and not beeing able to rebuild. (according to @real_tabasco_sauce - this would not been the case.

From the discussion can i take away, that at least some would agree, that blocking CC construction of an enemy is not a valid technique and unfair gameplay? So until this issue is solved technically a code of conduct for a host of a game might be just kick the player who blocks construction until construction of the CC (even on other location ) can be started.

Another solution as  @AInur posted would be not to play Nomad mode.... but tbh... nomad mode on ambush map is really fun sometimes... i would miss it.

 

Edited Wednesday at 09:42 by strat0spheric

[hyperion]

Is there a good reason not to start with 4 woman only on nomad? Feels to be more "nomad" and would make for and easy quick fix. Also, as you not loose resources for just placing a foundation moving it a few tiles away isn't a big deal me thinks. Non visible foundations which wouldn't block foundation placing of opponents either would be nice to have in any case.

 

Edit: Check https://gitea.wildfiregames.com/0ad/0ad/pulls/7159 for the "quick fix".

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Scouting, build rate, civ bonus starting units.

its really important that your starting units can move quickly and see in nomad.

just having 4 women would slow the build rate substantially.

when playing nomad, a different set of civs become “meta” which I don’t really have a problem with. If we just start with women, 3 civs lose their special starting unit.

lastly, with more experience this problem with nomad isn’t very bad, you just learn to place your cc near your units and to delete it if necessary.

 So the situation doesn’t call for a hotfix, I’d much rather wait for the ideal fix which is making foundations invisible for the enemy until they begin construction 

Edited Wednesday at 14:10 by real_tabasco_sauce

[hyperion]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

its really important that your starting units can move quickly and see in nomad.

Why? It's all about balancing the time spent until you place the CC and finding a good spot. So nothing changed.

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

just having 4 women would slow the build rate substantially

Again, this isn't bad just because, just different.

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

when playing nomad, a different set of civs become “meta” which I don’t really have a problem with. If we just start with women, 3 civs lose their special starting unit.

At most this results in a slight shift in top picks, civ bonuses are meant to be balanced for regular starts, adjusting them on a case by case basis for nomad isn't out of question tho. Also the military value of starting cs isn't equal either.

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I’d much rather wait for the ideal fix which is making foundations invisible for the enemy until they begin construction 

Right, are you going to work on it?

[real_tabasco_sauce]

You obviously need to see resources. If you can’t find a place to start, the winner is the person who finds resources first. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

6 minutes ago, hyperion said:

Right, are you going to work on it?

Maybe, I have a long list of things to do first though.

[Lion.Kanzen]

It could very well be a game setting for nomad mode.

So it depends on the players.