Narrative Campaign General Discussion?

[Deicide4u]

25 minutes ago, LienRag said:

I've really enjoyed maybe two or three 0ad games of the quite a lot I've played, which were those where I've been able to do actual tactics rather than just farming and grinding the enemy down...

Big population cap = macro eco boom fest.

You shouldn't do tactics with an abundance of available resources and population space. It's a trade-off that's not worth the extra APM.

In short, this isn't Warcraft 3. It's beyond even the StarCraft's level of macro.

[Thalatta]

@Vantha I think your idea around Carthago Nova as a tutorial is really good, but I wonder if this could be put in the framework of a larger campaign. Stories are interesting when they are character driven, and one of the most interesting characters around that time is Hannibal Barca, and as I see it there are 3 options: to have just Carthago Nova and miss Hannibal's story, to have both separate and risk being thematically repetitive, or what I like most, for the tutorial to be a prelude of a Hannibal campaign. The whole campaign wouldn't need to be ready for just the tutorial to be released first, it could later on be incorporated into the campaign when it's finished.

Regarding how to narrate it, I was thinking about how the Mongol campaign in AoE II is done, the author of The Secret History of the Mongols (as revealed at the beginning) narrates it in cutscenes for each scenario. No cinematics, just drawings, which is how things could be done at first. I think movies like The Last Samurai are nicely told (historical accuracy apart), with the narrator (who takes part in the movie, one realising it at the end) saying something just at the beginning and the end, as an epilogue and prologue. The middle of the campaign would be like a movie, or Starcraft campaigns, for more immersion. Hannibal’s campaign would be the only one with a prelude (tutorial). In it, hints would be given to the player (checkboxes is a great idea, like StarCraft II), but not by the narrator since I feel that cheapens the experience (having some ancient author telling you to click here and there). So, I’d structure them like a book, also with a foreword and afterword (explained in a bit).

Combining all these ideas for a Hannibal campaign, a foreword would briefly explain the contents of it, then as prologue a narrator with drawings could tell about Carthage’s defeat in the First Punic War, and the prelude would be the tutorial, starting with Hamilcar (Hannibal’s father) and Hasdrubal the Fair (his son-in-law) taking Hannibal as a child to Europe, founding Carthago Nova, etc. Then the main campaign would start with Hannibal in command, and end with his defeat in the Second Punic War, with many battles being interesting to have (I hope camouflage will be a thing in the future, for Lake Trasimene, and an ability of Numidian cavalry for Cannae). An epilogue would mention his exile and the later destruction of Carthage in the Third Punic War, that the narrator, revealed around this time to be The Histories author, Polybius, witnessed. An afterword would then mention that he’s remembered as one of the most brilliant tacticians of all time, that Rome would end having his monuments because they considered him their most worthy foe, and that later on the Roman emperor Septimius Severus would be born in those lands, being himself a native Punic speaker, to end on a not so grim note.

I hope all this is somewhat relevant and doesn't deviate too much from the present plans.

Edited yesterday at 12:57 by Thalatta

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

The tutorial could definitely be a "lead in" to a full fledged narrative campaign. I think that is how a lot of games structure their main campaign now. The first few scenarios are for learning, more than anything else. 

[Genava55]

11 hours ago, Thalatta said:

I think your idea around Carthago Nova as a tutorial is really good, but I wonder if this could be put in the framework of a larger campaign. Stories are interesting when they are character driven, and one of the most interesting characters around that time is Hannibal Barca, and as I see it there are 3 options: to have just Carthago Nova and miss Hannibal's story, to have both separate and risk being thematically repetitive, or what I like most, for the tutorial to be a prelude of a Hannibal campaign. The whole campaign wouldn't need to be ready for just the tutorial to be released first, it could later on be incorporated into the campaign when it's finished.

That's why initially I proposed a tutorial on Alexander the Great's youth. Aristotle was his primary tutor from the age of 13.

In 340 BC, the 16 years old Alexander was regent of the kingdom when his father laid siege to Perinthus and Byzantium. He fought and defeated the Maedi revolt, a Thracian tribe. He colonized their territory and founded a city which he named Alexandropolis.

In 338 BC, he participated decisively at the battle of Chaeronea against the Thebans. 

He is clearly the best historical figure for a tutorial that builds to a crescendo and precedes an epic campaign.

Edit, short introductions about the story:

Edit: past messages

On 21/10/2024 at 6:36 PM, Genava55 said:

1. The youth of Alexander the Great, tutored by Aristotle. He then started his military career against the Thracians and Illyrians. Finally, he fought decisively during the Battle of Thebes and Battle of Chaeronea. Several events that could be used for a tutorial. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great
2. The founding of Marseille (Massalia), we could use the myth as a basis for a more free interpretation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_myth_of_Marseille
3. The Ionian Revolt, prelude to the Greco-Persian Wars. Aristagoras is an interesting character. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionian_Revolt

 

On 26/10/2024 at 12:18 PM, Genava55 said:

The advantage with Alexander is that there is more flexibility. Ideally, you would start with a scenario where Alexander is with his first two tutors, Leonidas and Lysimachus, as well as his father accompanied by Aristotle. Philip II could introduce Aristotle to Alexander during a royal hunt, which would be a bit of a pretext to introduce the player to the simplest controls like movement and resource gathering, but also introduce the minimap, fog of war etc. Philip II could convince Aristotle to be his son's new tutor in exchange for rebuilding Stagira.

Then in the second part, there could be a scenario with on one side Aristotle teaching Alexander and his companions in Pella and on the other Philip II rebuilding the city of Stagira to honor Aristotle. In the 3rd part, the player will have more freedom when Alexander will be an adult and will make his first fights and found his first city.

On 21/10/2024 at 9:49 PM, Genava55 said:

1. Alexander learnt to hunt during his childhood and continued to hunt during his adolescence and adult time.
2. He was learning with his companions Ptolemy, Hephaistion, and Cassander at the same spot. So probably they did hunt.
3. There is a minor battle against the Maedi and the founding of a town, Alexandrupolis. https://www.livius.org/articles/place/alexandrupolis/

 

Edited 16 hours ago by Genava55

[Vantha]

I will try to be as open about how I feel about the situation as I can:

For me the die is cast.

There are of course several ways to go about structuring and designing a tutorial and connecting it to a story. For me, though, the focus and primary goal of the tutorial campaign is teach how to play, the story is secondary. Following this mindset, a while ago (easy to miss in this long thread), I first put together quite a detailed plan for the campaign's structure, what to teach in each of the individual matches. And only afterwards did I search for a piece of history in which this preexisting plan could be embedded. We did a lot of brainstorming and I eventually came to the conclusion that the founding of a colony (and then also the story around Carthago Nova and Hasdrubal the Fair) aligned best with what I envisioned.
Also, it was something new and interesting for me personally -- unlike Hannibal or Alexander, whose stories I've heard and dealt with dozens of times in the past. I am well aware that this might not be the case for many players and that a classic Hannibal or Alexander campaign might have been more appealing to some. However, considering the size of this project and that I'm essentially the only one implementing it, motivation and personal interest are important resources for me. I was deliberately trying to aim for something that also excites me personally, even if that comes at a slight cost of appeal for others, simply to help myself stay motivated to work on it. Keep in mind that I am still doing all of this in my free time. The main thing is not to make the tutorial campaign absolutely perfect in every single aspect, but to eventually finish it and get it into the game, to help new players learn the game, and along the way to provide better storytelling features for future campaigns.
And again, in my opinion the idea with Carthago Nova still fits really well and elegantly onto the learning and teaching process I had in mind. And it's also historically fairly relevant.

For these reasons, I want to make the story of the campaign self-contained and only revolve around Hasdrubal.

 

@Thalatta@Genava55 These are good concepts and I can definitely see how they would make for great campaigns, but for this one, I want to go in a different direction. However, making some usual story-focused campaigns as well for more experienced players is still a big goal, and ideas are always welcome. It could make sense to open a designated thread for campaign concepts like this.

[ShadowOfHassen]

To me we already had this discussion like 20 different times . Ultimately, we wanted a short tutorial that was stand alone and historically ambiguous. We wanted it short so if campaigns weren’t someone’s cup of tea, they could get in , learn the basics, and then do multiplayer. The historical ambiguity was so that we had freedom to prioritize teaching game mechanics without justifying every little thing.

Also the simple fact is that @Vantha has already started on the maps. He’s willing to put in most of the work (unlike me who while I say I’m willing to work honestly is kinda busy /lazy and don’t) so he does get final say.

The last thing is honestly those other campaigns should be separate , they could be beginner campaigns or sequels to the tutorial , but I honestly think it does the great commanders a bit of a disservice if you scale them back for a beginners tutorial (face it , Petra has a steep learning curve and it’s need to be set on very easy or sandbox so that beginners aren’t steamrolled. Not very fun for Alexander the Great or Hannibal then I think.)

[Thalatta]

@Vantha@ShadowOfHassen well it seems I was going for historical accuracy when historical ambiguity was decided, which I find suboptimal since it misses the opportunity of teaching history. That's why I was thinking for each scenario to be specific historical events, like Hamilcar gaining control of the gold and silver mines of Sierra Morena, subduing certain Iberian tribes, and expanding to the east, for people to learn more things besides Hasdrubal and the (re)founding of Carthago Nova. At least these things are what I find interesting in historically themed RTS. I agree with not doing “the great commanders a bit of a disservice if you scale them back for a beginners tutorial”, but that's the opposite of what I proposed with the prelude concept (in case a proper Hannibal campaign was also wanted).