Geriatrix Stop behaving like this

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

16 minutes ago, alre said:

I wouldn't say that banning or threatening bans is deescalation

maybe but sometimes it does solve the problem. For example Shyft_sierra.

[ChronA]

6 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Mass hysteria??? What is presented here in the discussion is simply a collection of evidence and testaments to his horrible behavior.

Yes, mass hysteria is the proper label to apply to witch hunts, and this is quite transparently a witch hunt at this point. The fact that it has been going on for so long and the words you guys are using give it away.

And before you go objecting that this can't be a witch hunt because the smurfing and anti-sociality problems are real, keep in mind that whether a movement has become a witch hunt has nothing to do with whether the thing being hunted is real. What makes it a witch hunt is the emergence of an organized witch hunting industry, parallel to the normal regulatory apparatus, and the use of the hunt primarily to settle personal grudges rather than to enforce a consistent set of rules. Just look at this thread and you will see ample evidence for both these criteria.

I'm not trying to argue that the grievances posted on this thread are illegitimate. It is not okay to misrepresent one's skill level to skew a friendly competition in one's favor, and it's not okay to conceal one's identity to harass other players. All of that is incredibly toxic and immature, and you are right to try to purge it from your community. However the remedy you guys are trying to administer seems much worse than the disease, if only because it appears quite ineffective at actually treating the disease, while spreading massive amounts of general toxicity and paranoia. Based on the persistence of accusations, it doesn't seem like these public name and shame campaigns are very effective in driving off the miscreants. Rather it just encourages them to get more aggressive with their alt accounts. In the absence of a truly effective remedy, it seems to me like restraint, humility, and self-awareness are a better option than what you are doing now.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

45 minutes ago, ChronA said:

Yes, mass hysteria is the proper label to apply to witch hunts, and this is quite transparently a witch hunt at this point. The fact that it has been going on for so long and the words you guys are using give it away.

And before you go objecting that this can't be a witch hunt because the smurfing and anti-sociality problems are real, keep in mind that whether a movement has become a witch hunt has nothing to do with whether the thing being hunted is real. What makes it a witch hunt is the emergence of an organized witch hunting industry, parallel to the normal regulatory apparatus, and the use of the hunt primarily to settle personal grudges rather than to enforce a consistent set of rules. Just look at this thread and you will see ample evidence for both these criteria.

I'm not trying to argue that the grievances posted on this thread are illegitimate. It is not okay to misrepresent one's skill level to skew a friendly competition in one's favor, and it's not okay to conceal one's identity to harass other players. All of that is incredibly toxic and immature, and you are right to try to purge it from your community. However the remedy you guys are trying to administer seems much worse than the disease, if only because it appears quite ineffective at actually treating the disease, while spreading massive amounts of general toxicity and paranoia. Based on the persistence of accusations, it doesn't seem like these public name and shame campaigns are very effective in driving off the miscreants. Rather it just encourages them to get more aggressive with their alt accounts. In the absence of a truly effective remedy, it seems to me like restraint, humility, and self-awareness are a better option than what you are doing now.

its not that deep.

There is an offender, the offender is being dealt with thanks to @Norse_Harold

Edited August 12 by real_tabasco_sauce

[leopard]

On 12/08/2024 at 2:50 AM, alre said:

Never heard anyone mindlessy repeating a commercial.

you are right! they won't mindlessly repeat rather they add up to the commercial, they use their own imagination.

Edited August 13 by leopard

[leopard]

18 hours ago, ChronA said:

Yes, mass hysteria is the proper label to apply to witch hunts, and this is quite transparently a witch hunt at this point. The fact that it has been going on for so long and the words you guys are using give it away.

And before you go objecting that this can't be a witch hunt because the smurfing and anti-sociality problems are real, keep in mind that whether a movement has become a witch hunt has nothing to do with whether the thing being hunted is real. What makes it a witch hunt is the emergence of an organized witch hunting industry, parallel to the normal regulatory apparatus, and the use of the hunt primarily to settle personal grudges rather than to enforce a consistent set of rules. Just look at this thread and you will see ample evidence for both these criteria.

I'm not trying to argue that the grievances posted on this thread are illegitimate. It is not okay to misrepresent one's skill level to skew a friendly competition in one's favor, and it's not okay to conceal one's identity to harass other players. All of that is incredibly toxic and immature, and you are right to try to purge it from your community. However the remedy you guys are trying to administer seems much worse than the disease, if only because it appears quite ineffective at actually treating the disease, while spreading massive amounts of general toxicity and paranoia. Based on the persistence of accusations, it doesn't seem like these public name and shame campaigns are very effective in driving off the miscreants. Rather it just encourages them to get more aggressive with their alt accounts. In the absence of a truly effective remedy, it seems to me like restraint, humility, and self-awareness are a better option than what you are doing now.

There is no mass hysteria, I opened this thread to troll Geriatrix because he troll/insults me, but norse intervened and I should control my emotions and we use this thread to clear the fog created by Geriatrix by his lies, please read the first posts, we have exposed a lot of lies Geriatrix state as absolute truth.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Appeasement. Players are now doing as Geriatrix wishes in order to not incur his wrath. This is a dangerous path.

[Norse_Harold]

4 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Appeasement. Players are now doing as Geriatrix wishes in order to not incur his wrath. This is a dangerous path.

Agreed. Please send screenshots and/or mainlog.html files (which contain in-game chat messages) either publicly or privately. Or, at least communicate specific date and time. That way other reports about the same incident can be correlated, and we don't double-count incidents.

I did see the public lobby chat message between you and Geriatrix today where Geriatix at one point accused you of demanding that he be banned from the game, and you said it was the other way around, but I would like to see the in-game chat messages, or lack thereof, as well. I know what's most likely the truth, but I want to have facts documented instead of operating based on hearsay. That way it's more difficult for a person to squirm out of consequences for the conduct.

Edited August 23 by Norse_Harold

[leopard]

10 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Appeasement. Players are now doing as Geriatrix wishes in order to not incur his wrath. This is a dangerous path.

I tried my best against Geriatrix, but people who don't take sides end up doing exactly what Geriatrix wants. Some even repeat the same lies Geriatrix spreads about me, while others silently hate me. I'm getting fed up and starting to hate these people.

[Norse_Harold]

12 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Appeasement. Players are now doing as Geriatrix wishes in order to not incur his wrath. This is a dangerous path.

Here is an excerpt of relevant messages in public lobby chat around that time. This excerpt contains only the most important messages, specifically claims of lying or misconduct, claims of people leaving because of other people, claims that one person did what another person accuses him of doing, and counterarguments.

Quote

2024-08-23
Times are in UTC time zone
16:42:00 breakfastburrito_007: appeasement
16:42:05 breakfastburrito_007: Pemulis
16:42:06 breakfastburrito_007: Pemulis
16:42:09 breakfastburrito_007: can u screenshot that
17:10:49 breakfastburrito_007: Effervescent
17:11:01 JagsusIndia: hes spec breakfastburrito_007
17:11:09 JagsusIndia: in Potatoe game
17:11:11 breakfastburrito_007: understood
17:11:20 breakfastburrito_007: they can read main lobby chat if they look
17:11:37 JagsusIndia: not much chance they'd be checking it
17:12:02 breakfastburrito_007: whats the risk in checking?
17:12:08 JagsusIndia: true
17:12:50 breakfastburrito_007: oh... why I dont join as spec
17:12:55 breakfastburrito_007: well its complicated
17:13:18 breakfastburrito_007: geriatrix asked host to ban me even tho I said nothing
17:14:43 Geriatrix: breakfastburrito_007 you said nothing. stop lieing. read your forum yyou lie everywhere
17:14:44 JagsusIndia: show him the mid finger and move on
17:14:56 Geriatrix: breakfastburrito_007 you finger Atrik until he was fedup
17:15:40 Geriatrix: breakfastburrito_007 and then you will wonder why community is so small. because of ego. player like you and your brother harass many players
17:15:48 Big_Al: Geriatrix i never played you. but all i ever see in this lobby is you accusing everyone of lying
17:15:50 Geriatrix: until they stop
17:15:52 Big_Al: its hilarious
17:16:05 Geriatrix: Big_Al leopard and breakfast do
17:17:10 Geriatrix: look Big_Al https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/119924-geriatrix-stop-behaving-like-this/page/4/#comment-581209
17:17:23 breakfastburrito_007: this is not lying there is proof of everything you do
17:17:41 Geriatrix: breakfastburrito_007  you claim with other than I 'm PhyZic Shyft and others
17:17:45 Geriatrix: if it's not lies
17:18:20 breakfastburrito_007: I dont claim that
17:18:57 breakfastburrito_007: i just join and you blow up
17:19:18 Geriatrix: breakfastburrito_007 yes you ask me to be banned and you cry when you re so funny
17:19:33 breakfastburrito_007: you are accusing me of what you just did
17:19:42 breakfastburrito_007: I did not request you to be banned you can join if you want
17:19:46 Geriatrix: breakfastburrito_007 you're thread is accusing me of what I4m not
17:24:01 Geriatrix: free Atrik and mute breakfastburrito_007! 0AD was great before

breakfastburrito_007 sent me the mainlog.html file that contains the chat messages from the incident.

Here are the relevant messages.

(Connected to Potatoe's game)
Geriatrix: /allies Ragnar isn't op
DoctorOrgans (1933): /allies Nedris (1449) maybe feed me so i can get rams quick
Geriatrix: ban the stupid lier breaking 0AD
Geriatrix: free Atrik!!!
Nedris (1449): /allies mh ok
Pandravabal: where is atrik?
Nedris (1449): /allies but not now otherwise i ll cripple myself
Geriatrix: free Atrik
DoctorOrgans (1933): /allies i will strike quick, kill cc, then get back
Geriatrix: he left because of breakfastburrito_007
Geriatrix: ban breakfastburrito_007 or I leave.
Geriatrix: 10 sec
breakfastburrito_007: /observers i havent even said anything XD

Then, according to the log, breakfastburrito_007 was banned by the host.

Note that this chat log answers one question immediately: it wasn't breakfastburrito_007 who demanded that Geriatrix be banned, instead it was Geriatrix who demanded that breakfastburrito_007 be banned.

Geriatrix's motive for demanding that breakfastburrito_007 be banned was probably because breakfastburrito_007 has spoken up on the forum about Geriatrix's rumor spreading, put truth to his lies about people, mentioned that a ban solved the problem with Shyft_Sierra's continual misconduct, etc.

When Geriatrix demanded that the host ban breakfastburrito_007, and threatened to leave if the host didn't, it was like a hostage situation. He held the game hostage until his demand was met.

I don't see any good reason for banning breakfastburrito_007, based on the logs. I think that Geriatrix just wanted to attack him in retaliation for standing up to his lies.

Hosters, please don't give in to this. Here is what I do when I'm hosting a game and facing a similar situation. I'm speaking as a player, not as a moderator. I try to avoid removing a player who is being very disruptive. I issue warnings and try to get compliance. If the player does not comply then I issue a deferred punishment until after the game is completed. Then I attempt to continue the game. If the player blocks the game from continuing (pauses it or threatens to disconnect) then I request that the player comply or receive a greater punishment. If the player still blocks the game from continuing then I just re without the player and apply the deferred punishment immediately. Punishments usually start at a 1 week ban from my games.

If, as a hoster, you decided to appease the hostage taker temporarily then I advise issuing him long-term punishment like a ban from your games unless the behavior stops.

Check out the process that I followed for deciding rules for games that I host. All it takes is communicating rules, issuing warnings, and issuing escalating consequences if there isn't compliance with the rules, as well as documenting consequences issued and the times that they will expire.

This has gotten results, and users who were formerly disruptive in my games have returned and gotten along for the most part.

Edited August 24 by Norse_Harold

[Norse_Harold]

35 minutes ago, leopard said:

I tried my best against Geriatrix, but people who don't take sides end up doing exactly what Geriatrix wants. Some even repeat the same lies Geriatrix spreads about me, while others silently hate me. I'm getting fed up and starting to hate these people.

Please stay positive, send evidence publicly or privately, and continue speaking the truth. If you give up then the lies win. If you keep pushing then maybe the lies don't win.

[Norse_Harold]

@AtrikGeriatix has made a claim that you stopped playing 0 A.D. because of breakfastburrito_007. I know it seems absurd, but can you comment on this, please?

[real_tabasco_sauce]

24 minutes ago, Norse_Harold said:

Geriatrix's motive for demanding that breakfastburrito_007 be banned was probably because breakfastburrito_007 has spoken up on the forum about Geriatrix's rumor spreading (defamation), put truth to his lies about people, mentioned that a ban solved the problem with Shyft_Sierra's continual misconduct, etc.

He says "lier breaking 0AD". He and a couple of other players are mistakenly convinced that @BreakfastBurrito_007 is developing the game or at least the community mod.

[Atrik]

49 minutes ago, Norse_Harold said:

@AtrikGeriatix has made a claim that you stopped playing 0 A.D. because of breakfastburrito_007. I know it seems absurd, but can you comment on this, please?

Breakfastburrito continuously spread lies and he also motivated some players to exert similar "hostage situation" that you describe above but against me. I didn't felt that he was breaking any therms of uses doing so, and even probably that this was a freedom he should have to express his opinion (even if he had admittedly had 0.000 knowledge about what he was talking about).
Therefor I wouldn't even got the idea to call on moderation. Now he calls on moderation against Geriatrix...
@Norse_Harold you are likely to take his side on this, but Geriatrix not doing anything that seems to deserve a moderator's attention, and breakfastburrito is only getting a taste of what he was so keen to get me to live anyway...

In my opinion @Norse_Harold you shouldn't get too much into the weeds of moderating everything in random game hosts because it's simply impossible and you can't format every behaviors under rules. Well, I already know we disagree on this point but still wanted to write it again in defense of Geriatrix's freedoms.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

9 hours ago, Atrik said:

Breakfastburrito continuously spread lies and he also motivated some players to exert similar "hostage situation" that you describe above but against me. I didn't felt that he was breaking any therms of uses doing so, and even probably that this was a freedom he should have to express his opinion (even if he had admittedly had 0.000 knowledge about what he was talking about).

That's actually laughable that you would contort the truth like that, so I'd like to hear evidence. My only recollection tells me that he encouraged hosts to mandate that you turn the autotrainer off in order to play. I think I did so once too. Only one common host has forced you to turn it off.

That's a little bit different than griefing an entire game AFTER it has started, actually even 15 or 20 minutes in. And he tried to do it every time I join a game he is in as spec. One time he literally left and never came back so they had to re.

9 hours ago, Atrik said:

Geriatrix not doing anything that seems to deserve a moderator's attention

 And the grass is blue. Why do you feel the need to defend Geriatrix to the point you will lie like this.

Edited August 24 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Norse_Harold]

11 hours ago, Atrik said:

Breakfastburrito continuously spread lies and he also motivated some players to exert similar "hostage situation" that you describe above but against me.

If other players did a "hostage situation" then that's not breakfastburrito_007 doing that. I am aware that there is a conflict about whether proGUI is considered cheating. What I have perceived has been political action around that issue, public logical argument attempting to convince others to support an opinion, and perhaps organizing of people to take action such as by establishing a voluntary rule on a per-hoster basis about use of performance-enhancing mods. That's different from a hostage situation based on lies.

11 hours ago, Atrik said:

Geriatrix not doing anything that seems to deserve a moderator's attention

I don't know how you can say this. The lobby terms of use say that defamation is not allowed. Defamation is "false or unjustified injury of the good reputation of another, as by slander or libel". It involves telling a series of lies or spreading rumors. An example is when Geriatrix lied about why ValihrAnt wasn't playing 0ad as much in June.

The lobby terms of use say that threatening is not allowed. A threat is "a declaration of an intention or determination to inflict punishment, injury, etc., in retaliation for, or conditionally upon, some action or course." An example is when Geriatrix threatened to leave a team game if leopard wasn't banned. He later threatened to leave a team game if breakfastburrito_007 wasn't banned.

The lobby terms of use also say that pejorative terms are not allowed. A pejorative is "disparaging, derogatory, or belittling, such as bean counter for an accountant". Examples are when Geriatrix called op players 1200, meaning 1200 rated, in public lobby chat several times over the last year, and called leopard p*ssy. The word is censored by the forum, but it's visible if one reads mainlog.html directly.

Sources of definitions: defamation, threat, pejorative.

I want people to speak the timeless truth, regardless of current friendships or conflicts.

I guess that because you didn't answer the question directly, and you didn't make a statement at the time that you started your break from 0ad, that you didn't stop playing 0ad because of breakfastburrito_007.

Edited August 24 by Norse_Harold

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

11 hours ago, Atrik said:

Breakfastburrito continuously spread lies and he also motivated some players to exert similar "hostage situation" that you describe above but against me. I didn't felt that he was breaking any therms of uses doing so, and even probably that this was a freedom he should have to express his opinion (even if he had admittedly had 0.000 knowledge about what he was talking about).
Therefor I wouldn't even got the idea to call on moderation. Now he calls on moderation against Geriatrix...
@Norse_Harold you are likely to take his side on this, but Geriatrix not doing anything that seems to deserve a moderator's attention, and breakfastburrito is only getting a taste of what he was so keen to get me to live anyway...

Never once did I take a game hostage. And I frankly do know what I'm talking about, if I don't know about topics I stay quiet or ask questions.

Its good you bring this up @Atrik because cheating as well as bad behavior (ie taking the game hostage) within hosts are very hard to moderate. Good hosts can make a difference by banning or excluding players after asking them to stop. In some cases like yours this is extremely effective, where players gradually decided they didn't want anyone to have an unfair advantage. 

Edited August 24 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[leopard]

It looks like @Atrik holds a grudge against us, so he's trying to make us look like fools by accusing us of doing to him what Geriatrix doing to us.

12 hours ago, Atrik said:

but Geriatrix not doing anything that seems to deserve a moderator's attention

dude...
why lie like this, if you think what he talks about me is ok then you are very wicked like geriatrix.

I know a lot of you has been brain-washed by geriatrix

but this one is extreme, purely intentional and insulting. 

do you think I am an idiot to make a thread about geriatrix,
do you think I deserve to be banned and people can waste my time just like that.

I always tried to stand by your side only because I liked the effort you put in.

geriatrix always called you a cheater, now you take side with that dude.

 

[leopard]

12 hours ago, Atrik said:

you shouldn't get too much into the weeds of moderating everything in random game hosts because

well, he is not moderating everything,
this thread was created because I got continuously insulted by GTriX so did a lot of other players,
I know you are trying to make us look fools and I understand the hidden crooked mindset behind this.

@Norse_Harold intervened because I talked to him about the problems I have to face due to the crazy people in this game.
so he is not randomly doing anything like you are trying to insult here.

[chrstgtr]

2 hours ago, Norse_Harold said:

If other players did a "hostage situation" then that's not breakfastburrito_007 doing that. I am aware that there is a conflict about whether proGUI is considered cheating. What I have perceived has been political action around that issue, public logical argument attempting to convince others to support an opinion, and perhaps organizing of people to take action such as by establishing a voluntary rule on a per-hoster basis about use of performance-enhancing mods. That's different from a hostage situation based on lies.

@Norse_Harold This is what Atrik is referring to. Somehow he didn't like it when people did just as he suggested. 

 

 

On 17/06/2023 at 5:53 PM, Atrik said:

I understand the competitive thing, players can always say they don't play with a opponent with this mod.

-------

In other news, do we really need four pages on Geriatrix? Don't feed the troll. 

[Norse_Harold]

1 hour ago, chrstgtr said:

In other news, do we really need four pages on Geriatrix? Don't feed the troll. 

Meanwhile Geriatrix has probably 40 pages of accusations in lobby and in-game chat, and counting. So yeah, we need four pages on addressing the claims of Geriatrix.

[Atrik]

5 hours ago, Norse_Harold said:

If other players did a "hostage situation" then that's not breakfastburrito_007 doing that.

Players threatening to keep a game paused or leaving it unless a spec gets banned happened every day I was active, including against Geriatrix. Do every incident feel like needing moderation? I don't criticize @leopard nor @Norse_Harold for getting pissed off Geriatrix behavior or posting opinion on forum. I just don't see how or why this would be moderated.

I'm not holding grudge against you @leopard, can't see why you come to state this. Of course it's funny to me to see @BreakfastBurrito_007 calling on moderation after being an actor in a defamation campaign against me for over a year. Reminder that he spread lies and rumors every time I saw him logged in, at the point it felt he was only logging in, not to play a single game, but just to talk about me. He would literally: log in, spectate a coupe of games I'm in, make his comments as spectator in global channel, log out. Repeating this multiple times a week. Same for his brother. Sad but hilarious in the same time.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

11 minutes ago, Atrik said:

Players threatening to keep a game paused or leaving it unless a spec gets banned happened every day I was active, including against Geriatrix.

Press X to doubt. Geriatrix was the first player I have ever seen take a game hostage like this. I've never seen the equivalent behavior before.

11 minutes ago, Atrik said:

Of course it's funny to me to see @BreakfastBurrito_007 calling on moderation after being an actor in a defamation campaign against me for over a year. Reminder that he spread lies and rumors every time I saw him logged in, at the point it felt he was only logging in, not to play a single game, but just to talk about me. He would literally: log in, spectate a coupe of games I'm in, make his comments as spectator in global channel, log out. Repeating this multiple times a week. Same for his brother. Sad but hilarious in the same time.

I think you're in the wrong discussion pal. Also you are massively exaggerating and contorting the truth again here. Simple discussion of your mod with players that are acting superstitious is not harassment. You only hate me and @BreakfastBurrito_007 because we make good arguments against your mod that you cannot refute. If your ethos here was genuine, you would be going after those that relentlessly insulted you with actual insults like Geriatrix himself.

Edited August 24 by real_tabasco_sauce

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

If you click norse harold's definition of defamation it needs to be "false or unjustified". The only falsehood being spread is that your mod does not provide an unfair advantage, which it most absolutely does. The only injustice was 90% of players you played against being uninformed of your mod and its gameplay effects. It was sickening to watch you indulge in your progui advantage against players who struggled to match the input rate, so I informed other players and spoke out about what your mod is, how it affects gameplay, and most importantly how to detect its use.

Edited August 24 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[Atrik]

37 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

You only come after me and @BreakfastBurrito_007 because we make good arguments against your mod that you cannot refute.

Like?

37 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

If your ethos here was genuine, you would be going after those that relentlessly insulted you with actual insults like Geriatrix himself.

The very last chat when I decided to leave the game you called me retard (although probably it happened that I also made use of insults towards you, as you deserve them clearly). This just after, again arguing I needed the mod to play well just AFTER a game I had turned my mod off and proved again that it wasn't the mod defining my level. You twist reality all the time not the opposite pal.

 

30 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

it needs to be "false or unjustified".

"Atrix is no touching the keyboard" => I was one of the players knowing the most hotkeys
"Is an AI playing" => No definitions of AI can describe auto-trainer's panel
"Private mod" => Progui isn't private or hidden
"Is a cheater" => I could reveal map in 100% vanilla 0ad just using a command line, If I wanted to cheat they would be more effective ways then to rework the gui.

30 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

The only injustice was 90% of players you played against being uninformed of your mod and its gameplay effects

You made sure that players who didn't heard about the mod were exposed to your lies that it was a ai, bot, playing for you. Whereas a better production system is a feature often desired by newcomers, yet I got targeted by your team for coming up with something that feels better then vanilla system. You also admitted never trying it so you also made all your critics on assumptions.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, Atrik said:

Like?

I don't want to repeat the other 3 threads. See those and please move your last paragraph to the discussion @chrstgtr linked.

1 hour ago, Atrik said:

The very last chat when I decided to leave the game you called me retard (although probably it happened that I also made use of insults towards you, as you deserve them clearly).

I'll also admit that like you, I Iost my cool. However, I made no mention of your other games and I did not call you that word. I said "I have perfectly good GAME KNOWLEDGE, what I lack is PRACTICE, dumba**"

I was discussing your mod with a player and you joined as I was writing. Just seeing that I was discussing progui made you explode, with some insults I found shocking because you had previously been polite. When you attacked my work, character, and intelligence, saying I shouldn't change the game because I am a noob with "No game knowledge," I simply had to fire back some shots.

All this being said, lets all save this discussion for its real purpose please. 

Edited August 25 by real_tabasco_sauce