Idea to improve capturing (dunno if it would be possible)

[Sp00ky]

0ad is an amazing game and it has become my current favorite RTS game, but one thing I still don't enjoy is capturing. There is something that feels wrong to me with the current system, it is way too confusing, it's also annoying for units to try to capture a building automatically. The animation (which I get is a placeholder) feels out of place and ruins the immersion. I know that it doesn't make sense for infantry to attack stone buildings with swords, but maybe some animation of the troops using makeshift rams with logs or blunt weaponry could make it more realistic.

Changes to mechanics

• By default, buildings are not able to be captured. Unless they have certain % of HP diminished. IF that is the case, units can be ordered to capture the building by garrisoning.  This could simulate the idea that maybe the walls and doors were damaged allowing invaders to enter through the breaches.
• Buildings could have a number of slots for capturing enemies, that is, for example a building can garrison 20 people, then 30 enemies could enter a building to capture it, turning the odds in favour of the invader (which already commited some troops and siege to breach the building)
• If there are no people garrisoned the building is captured immediately.
• If only women are garrisoned, the building is also captured immediately, the units inside would be kicked out.
• If there are people garrisoned, depending on how much each side has in the building either the attacking or defending army would start losing men. This could be a tricky thing since I don't know how damage to each side would be calculated, initially I thought the bigger numbers should win, but some people maybe wouldn't like elite soldiers to die to skirmishers for example.
• Some buildings such as houses and warehouses should be easily breachable.

This could be an interesting change, because it would make capturing a more deliberate choice, with the attacker and defender choosing to put more troops in a building if it's important.

 

This probably is a lot of work and maybe it has a lot of issues that I haven't thought about, but let me know what you guys think. or if it's even doable in the engine, or maybe it's just a stupid idea because of balance and all that. Or maybe it can be improved... you tell me haha.

Edited June 6, 2023 by Sp00ky

[real_tabasco_sauce]

to be honest, it sounds more complicated than the current system.

I don't mind the animation, since it kind of represents capturing. You can think of it like a mob of soldiers surrounding a building and forcing the occupants out. If this was a non-visual process, it would be very difficult to prevent your buildings being captured.

Also I don't like the idea of units fighting "inside" a building, as I wouldn't be able to see what is going on without clicking the building.

Perhaps one way to improve capturing mechanics would be to calculate a 'garrison strength' (affected by phase, units and/or hero inside) and provide this metric in the UI for your own buildings and also enemy buildings. Although, maybe this would give the attacker too much information.

Edited June 6, 2023 by real_tabasco_sauce

[alre]

Personally I would make capturing unaffected by garrison. Garrisoning is currently op and quite micro-heavy.

Then again, A27 will be yet another thing: capturing will be buffed and less encouraged at the same time, but what can you say, devs will be devs.

[causative]

Quote

This could simulate the idea that maybe the walls and doors were damaged allowing invaders to enter through the breaches.

Note that attackers didn't necessarily need to damage the walls to capture the city. Surrounding the enemy and starving them out was a popular strategy. In some sieges, a traitor would open the gates for the attackers. Siege ladders and siege towers were used to put troops directly on top of the walls without needing to damage them. Huge siege ramps, made out of dirt, sloping up to the top of the wall, were another strategy.

[LienRag]

On 06/06/2023 at 9:41 PM, alre said:

Garrisoning is currently op and quite micro-heavy.

 

Garrisoning is a tad micro-heavy, but it could be fixed by specific orders : "interdiction" (for the attacker), to prevent anyone to enter the building, and "breach" for the defender, in order to have a formation break the enemy lines in order to garrison.

Garrisoning in itself is extremely important strategically, as it means that it's possible with good tactics to storm an unprepared enemy while making impossible to take out enemy defenses without siege engines if he actually took care to defend.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I personally dislike how easy it is to garrison a structure and make it 100% uncapturable. IMHO, if the players still want that, then UnitAI should automatically switch the attacking units from capture it attack. But perhaps this is not necessary since the default attack switch

[Gurken Khan]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

UnitAI should automatically switch the attacking units from capture it attack

Isn't that already the case? I remember uninvited visitors changing their behavior depending on my tower guys being inside or out.

[LienRag]

On 22/10/2023 at 5:18 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I personally dislike how easy it is to garrison a structure and make it 100% uncapturable.

"How easy" is actually two-fold :

- The player planned for the attack and garrisoned the structure in advance, before the attack.
To me this is a situation where making the building uncapturable is fine : you want to attack a fortified and prepared enemy, you get siege weapons (or you try dismantling the building with axes first).

- You launch a well-planned raid on the enemy but even though you're locally very superior to him militarily, he's still able to skip units through your lines and garrison them in the structure you're besieging, making it uncapturable.
This is indeed very frustrating, but I believe that the formations/orders I suggested above can fix that.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 22/10/2023 at 2:44 PM, Gurken Khan said:

Isn't that already the case? I remember uninvited visitors changing their behavior depending on my tower guys being inside or out.

Right, but is that unitAI or player AI making the switch? I mean, for a human's units, they'll stand there and continue to attempt to capture the building until they are all massacred.

[Gurken Khan]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone I'm not talking about human players. I don't know if there are different AIs controlling the behavior of computer players/units; all I know is that enemy units switched between hacking and waving at towers depending on me garrisoning/un-garrisoning.

[alre]

UnitAI is the routine automating unit behaviour, including units controlled by human players.

PetraAI may be responsible for that switch, because UnitAI only ever triggers "preferred attack" which in A26 is conquer for units on buildings. Since A27, preferred attack is never conquer.

Edited October 24, 2023 by alre

[Gurken Khan]

4 hours ago, alre said:

Since A27, preferred attack is never conquer.

Was there any reason or discussion?

I wanted to know what other ppl think so I made a poll:

 

[man_s_our]

On 07/06/2023 at 12:56 AM, causative said:

Note that attackers didn't necessarily need to damage the walls to capture the city. Surrounding the enemy and starving them out was a popular strategy. In some sieges, a traitor would open the gates for the attackers. Siege ladders and siege towers were used to put troops directly on top of the walls without needing to damage them. Huge siege ramps, made out of dirt, sloping up to the top of the wall, were another strategy.

I'm working on ability of using the starving tactics to force garrisoned units (in building or city) to do a sortie.

I may also be able to re-implement the walls and gates' mechanisms to be able to handle usage of traitors and ladders to infiltrate the forts but that would need some patching for pathfinder or some more costy workaround.