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Genava55
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Posts posted by Genava55
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14 minutes ago, Ardworix said:
The images are merely illustrative regarding the use of the buccula and the bipene (the ones I posted, not yours).... unless you also want to make a case for the use of both, as to date, there has not been a single physical archaeological find of the two pieces.
For the bipene axe, there is a plausible find as a votive axe:
For the mask helmet, it is plausible the Cantabrians used such. But I don't think it would have been such bearded mask helmet. I think something like this more plausible (this is an italic chalcidian helmet):
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9 hours ago, Ardworix said:
The origin of the Ambakaro first appeared in the first Europa Barbarorum mod for Rome Total War. Alongside other units that are inaccurate.
All those units have been removed for Europa Barbarorum 2 because there was actually no evidence for such things. And I am saying that as a part of the team.
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30 minutes ago, Duileoga said:
-¿Usted que opina @Genava55?
Hola Duileoga, personalmente me parece que las texturas de las unidades son bastante buenas. La idea de utilizar las estatuas gallegas como referencias es buena.
Los descubrimientos arqueológicos sobre las armas son bastante escasos para los Lusitanos, afortunadamente es posible inspirarse en las estatuas gallegas y los descubrimientos entre los Vetones. De hecho, creo que ya ha hecho bien en incluir un edificio para los Vetones, que permitiría incluir explícitamente unidades Vetones. Los Cantabres también podrían formar parte de la lista para diversificar. Hay varios elementos únicos que se pueden utilizar.
Incluir a los Gallegos, los Vetones y los Cantabres tiene sentido para mí. Existen vínculos culturales entre estos pueblos con los lusitanos. Sin embargo, empezar a incluir todo y cualquier cosa que apareció en la Península Ibérica, no tiene sentido.
Estoy de acuerdo en que se deben usar armadura orgánica y linotórax. Las fuentes literarias son claras sobre este tema, existía este tipo de protección entre los combatientes. Lo mismo para el armadura de malla, parece ser solo para la élite, pero es algo que se usa. Por otro lado los discos de bronce o la armadura de escamas no lo es. Para los discos de bronce, no parece haber ninguno en el oeste entre los Vetones, además, los discos ya no se utilizan después del siglo IV a. y por lo tanto no hubo ninguno durante las guerras de Lusitania. Para las armaduras de escamas no hay evidencia de su uso aparte de una cerámica encontrada en el este de la península entre los íberos. La interpretación de esta cerámica está lejos del consenso y la literatura tampoco menciona explícitamente este tipo de armaduras. Aparte de los argumentos de mala fe, no vi nada que probara su uso.
En cuanto a los cascos con máscaras, la única interpretación plausible es la de una moneda de la región de Cantabria. Creo que es más prudente dejar la exclusividad de su uso a una unidad Cantabre. Como el hacha doble.
En cuanto a las evoluciones de las unidades con la experiencia, estoy de acuerdo contigo en que es necesario poner reglas para mantener una coherencia. Esto es importante para los jugadores que necesitan ver rápidamente las diferencias entre unidades. Creo que, de hecho, la versión básica no debería tener un casco, luego cascos orgánicos y luego cascos de metal. También se puede hacer lo mismo con el par, que aparecería en algunas unidades solo en un nivel superior.
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I am simply worried for the Lusitanians but if you want to mess the whole development go ahead.
I don't see the point in discussing with someone that cannot back up his claims nor answers simple questions.
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Not so different: individual fighting techniques and battle tactics of Roman and Iberian armies within the framework of warfare in the Hellenistic Age
15. MILITARY DEVELOPMENTS IN THE ‘LATE IBERIAN’ CULTURE (c. 237-c. 195 BC): MEDITERRANEAN INFLUENCES IN THE FAR WEST VIA THE CARTHAGINIAN MILITARY
https://www.uam.es/FyL/documento/1446794678563/Quesada-HWI-Torun-BNO-.pdf
Discos-coraza de la Península Ibérica
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270474863_Discos_Coraza_de_la_Peninsula_Iberica
La guerra y el armamento celtibérico: estado actual
https://www.academia.edu/30577570/La_guerra_y_el_armamento_celtibérico_estado_actual
El armamento de influencia La Tène en la Península Ibérica (siglos V-I a.C.)
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9 hours ago, Ardworix said:
And back to the main point, almost celtic people have a registered of the use of loric squamata, but according to the article you cover, the Lusitanians and Celtiberics do not!
As far as I know, there are no evidences that the other Celts (Britons and Gauls) used any sort of armor made of scales.
If you know evidences for such armors in a Gallic or a Brythonic context, I would be really interested.
9 hours ago, Ardworix said:In addition to the express representation in Celtiberian ceramics...
Do you have a reference?
10 hours ago, Ardworix said:Making assertions bluntly contrary to classical authors.
Is there an account from classical authors mentioning armor made of scales on the peninsula?
10 hours ago, Ardworix said:I don't understand why polemic about this.
First, because I am an annoying nitpicker and because I am genuinely interested to seek the truth.
But also because I don't want to see the Lusitanian faction suffering the same issue than the Iberian faction.
If both the Iberians and the Lusitanians use the same references, then there is no point in creating this faction.
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A new 3d modelling of Corent, an oppidum with a sanctuary.
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On 08/09/2021 at 6:28 PM, Duileoga said:
(Bandolero lusitano);
-Hice dos ya que la unidad tendrá dos jinetes. Las texturas de arriba para el jinete de atrás y las texturas de abajo para el jinete de enfrente.
Referencia;
![research] iberians | Page 3 | TaleWorlds Forums](https://i.imgur.com/7zdx7st.jpg)
I am skeptical of this kind of illustration depicting a bronze cuirass of the 6th century, a Monte-Bernorio dagger of the 4th century and a Montefortino helmet of the 3rd century BC. Furthermore, if the issue is that the Iberians are currently mixing everything from the Iberian peninsula, doing the same for the Lusitanians will simply be doubling the problem.
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4 hours ago, Ardworix said:
"Roman" auxiliary troops in Britannia were essentially "Iberian". It is not by chance that they used lSquamat loric, as the use of will be repeated in all events after the incorporation of "Iberian" bodies into the Roman army.
I missed this one. This is your reply to mine pointing out you have used an illustration depicting a late roman cavalryman against Picts?
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4 hours ago, Ardworix said:
A "thracian", which makes use of a gladius hispaniensis... it's an evolution, for those who said there was no barbarian.
I don't see the gladius.
By the way you initially said that it was an antenna sword, not a gladius hispaniensis. That's two different weapons. Try to be coherent with your own interpretation.
Edit: a xiphos could be the source
Some xiphos, especially those from Hellenistic era have different hilt and pommel that could match those from the coins above:
In comparison, a Gladius Hispaniensis:
Or an antenna sword:
I think the xiphos is the one that matches best the shape and the length of the blade. Which is also supported by the similarity between the two coins, one is obviously depicting xiphos swords.
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9 hours ago, Ardworix said:
That's depicting a roman cavalryman from the end of the western Roman Empire facing two Picts.
9 hours ago, Ardworix said:
You really think the bottom part is a chain mail?
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11 hours ago, Ardworix said:
Your own reference says "it is in any case clear"
"It is in any case clear..." means basically "em qualquer caso, é claro..."
11 hours ago, Ardworix said:As for not seeing, or ignoring, the figure of a "barbarian" in the representation on the left, we see that someone has problems with their eyes.... of all sorts, even if they ignore everything that has already been said, specifically about the currency in question.
You claimed it is a coin from Hispania, but this is not. You never replied to my argument so I assume you know I am right and you were wrong. The coin is minted in Rome. It is a widespread denarius, mostly found in Italy.
You see a barbarian figure, it could be the case but it could be any kind of barbarian. Thracian for example, from which we know they used lorica squamata. Thracians fought for the Macedonians against the Romans, so it would be much logical for a coin minted by Gaius Servilius Vatia.
All depictions from the coins minted by Servilius familly suggest icons and images from the Eastern Mediterranean regions. Not from the West.
11 hours ago, Ardworix said:Between Estrabon and these "exotic" theses, to say the least, I take Estrabon.
Because it contradicts you, you label them exotic? That's not helping you.
11 hours ago, Ardworix said:It expressly contradicts Estrabon, as I've already said, but you completely ignore it.
You said Diodorus Siculus not Strabo, but whatever.
Strabo's account actually confirms that the chain mail is rare. And Quesada-Sanz is entirely correct on pointint out that none have been found yet (predating the Caesarean era). The point of Quesada-Sanz is to say it is more probably a linen or quilted armor.
Strabo's Geography, Book 3, chapter 3.6:
At any rate, the Lusitanians, it is said, are given to laying ambush, given to spying out, are quick, nimble, and good at deploying troops. They have a small shield two feet in diameter, concave in front, and suspended from the shoulder by means of thongs (for it has neither arm-rings nor handles). Besides these shields they have a dirk or a butcher's-knife. Most of them wear linen cuirasses; a few wear chain-wrought cuirasses and helmets with three crests, but the rest wear helmets made of sinews. The foot-soldiers wear greaves also, and each soldier has several javelins; and some also make use of spears, and the spears have bronze heads. Now some of the peoples that dwell next to the Durius River live, it is said, after the manner of the Laconians — using anointing-rooms twice a day and taking baths in vapours that rise from heated stones, bathing in cold water, and eating only one meal a day; and that in a cleanly and simple way. The Lusitanians are given to offering sacrifices, and they inspect the vitals, without cutting them out. Besides, they also inspect the veins on the side of the victim; and they divine by the tokens of touch, too. They prophesy through means of the vitals of human beings also, prisoners of war, whom they first cover with coarse cloaks, and then, when the victim has been struck beneath the vitals by the diviner, they draw their first auguries from the fall of the victim. And they cut off the right hands of their captives and set them up as an offering to the gods.And this account is specifically about the Lusitanians. You like to rely on other tribes to make up a Lusitanian roster but the ceramics you are relying on are from Valencia in Spain.
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On 18/09/2021 at 9:20 AM, Genava55 said:
There was a museum exhibition on this vase, as the publication of the museum said:
The artistic quality of the Vessel of the Warriors with Cuirasses [1] from Edeta (Tossal de Sant Miquel de Llíria) surpasses that of any other indigenous ceramic painting of the late-Hellenic western Mediterranean. The period to which it belongs, however, is witness to the displacement of medium or small-format staged narratives to supports other than ceramic vessels.
[1] The term cuirass, used in the first publication of this vase, is kept here without assuming that it is technically or militarily adequate, since it could be a simple textile coat.
I am also reporting the account of the user Trarco, which translated this quote from Quesada-Sanz on the matter:
<<The passive defensive weapons depicted on the Vessel (armour, helmets) present other problems. The horses on this vessel are represented using a conventional filler pattern to indicate their coat, which was previously misinterpreted by A. McBride, a great foreign artist but one with little knowledge about Hispanic archaeological realities, as scale or mail armour. His magnificent drawings were later imitated by others (for example, Alcaide and Vela) and have created—above all among amateurs— the idea of a cataphract “armoured” cavalry, which never existed in Iberia, nor in all the Mediterranean region in this period. Even in the far-off Persian world, during this period there was only some much lighter barding in use.
All the figures on the Vessel wear a type of "coselete" (light armour vest), perhaps with sleeves made from another material. The part which covers the chest (sometimes down to the diaphragm, sometimes to the belly) is covered with a scaled pattern which has caused many to think of metallic protection. Moreover, the lower abdomen is covered with what, without doubt, appears to be pteryges, hanging strips of organic material (usually leather or linen) which gave the wearer a certain degree of protection without restricting their movement. They seem to be wearing some type of metallic armour of which there were a great variety in use from Greece to the south of Gall via Italy. The majority of those who support this theory – including the aforementioned artist – believe that the Vessel depicts scaled armour (see the majority of the references already cited). This type of armour was usually made up of small plates, normally made of bronze, sewn onto a textile support. It is a type of armour well-known in the western Mediterranean and Asia from the Bronze Age, and to a far lesser extent in Greece during the Iron Age. However, in Iberia (as in the Celtic world) no scaled armour of this type is known, nor represented on other media (sculptures, offerings, or even other ceramics). It was rare even in Italy, and in the classical Greek world it was used only occasionally as a complement to a type of textile armour (linothorax). But at the end of the third century neither the Carthaginians nor Romans appear to have used this type of protection; the legionaries in particular, as Polybius says (VI, 23, 14 15), wore a small bronze square on their chest at the most, and only the most affluent wore a coat of iron chainmail. This second option — the coat of mail — has also been suggested for the Llírian warriors, but these coats of mail from the 3rd to 2nd centuries BCE did not have pteryges and were furthermore an absolutely rarity in Iberia (in fact, not a single piece from a coat of mail is known to have existed in Iberia before the Caesarean period, in the middle of the 1st century BCE). Moreover, the decorative pattern used on the Vessel does not seem to be that for ring-woven mail, which is usually depicted in a different way in the visual arts (Quesada and Rueda, 2017). Finally, other authors have suggested armour made from bronze sheets, small rectangular plates sewn together, of which there is no iconographic or archaeological evidence in Iberia and which was not used – or barely used – in the central Mediterranean region in this period. Moreover, plate armour is normally depicted in a much simpler way using a pattern of small squares or rectangles. Only the penultimate infantryman has his entire torso covered by a pattern of crossed lines forming small diamonds (which only cover the abdomen and belly of the rest of the figures), but the diagonal lines would not be adequate to represent plate amour, whose lines are clearly vertical and horizontal, and are represented in this way on some small Etruscan offerings, for example. The most probable explanation is that the Llírian warriors are wearing a type of quilted protection, more likely made from textile than leather. In fact, the scale pattern was, for example, used on Greek ceramics to represent both metal scales and organic protective wear (the aegis or skin of Amalthea’s goat which protected Athena) and even the wings of deities such as Thanatos and Hypnos, such as on the famous vessel decorated by the painter Euphronios. In fact, Anderson explained many years ago that the scales in Greek black-figure paintings were normally used to indicate “hair on a hide... or even as a decorative motif on cloth.>>https://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?797309-Iberian-Linen-armor
On 18/09/2021 at 2:55 PM, Ardworix said:About some points that you report, it seems to me to be an elucubration that contradicts the express mentions of the classic authors, corroborated in the ceramics of Liria. Diodorus Siculus expressly says that the Lusitanians used coats of mail....!
In any case, if anyone is willing to theorize new interpretations of Liria pottery, good luck! I suggest to write a scientific article about it and hold academic conferences on your theses. For now, let us base ourselves on what is consensus.
By the way, the two opinions I shared about the Llírian warriors depicted on the ceramics were made by scholars. One is an excerpt from the publication made by the museum and the other is made by Quesada-Sanz on his Phd thesis.
But I am not surprised by your attitude.
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20 hours ago, Ardworix said:
Imagination is seeing a Latin "M" in a knight wearing a mask....
This is a Roman coin right? This is not an indigeneous coin right?
So why a Roman would mint a Celtiberian letter?
Especially, why Romans would mint in Rome a denarius with a Celtiberian letter? And again this is NOT a coin found exclusively in Hispania, this is a widespread denarius minted by someone that was in charge of the official mint. In Rome.
The academic litterature is clear on the matter, the letter M on this coin is a reference to an ancestor of the minter. This is what is explained on the reference book on Republican coinage written by Michael H. Crawford.
All the things you see, the braids, the mask helmet and the antenna pommel are the products of your imagination. No expert describes the coin in such way. I don't see the mask, I see a face. A face minted in a similar way in other coins from Servilius family. The pommel of the sword is similar on another coin representing a Roman facing a Macedonian.
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2 hours ago, Ardworix said:
the one I referred to is from the year 127 BC. , original from Hispania/Iberia, which clearly depicts two local knights
It is not from Hispania and does not represent two local knights.
2 hours ago, Ardworix said:sporting on his shield a Celtiberic letter (M)
For you this is a Celtiberian letter ?
Interesting. Completely wrong but it is interesting how some people can made up things with great imagination.
Maybe you should read more about Gaius Servilius Vatia
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4 hours ago, Ardworix said:
Even more expressed, in particular the Lusitanians use of the lorica scale, is a coin from Servilia dated to the year 127 BC, which depicts the fight between two knights. The use of a double-edged sword, of the "antenna" type, denounces that he is a warrior from the Celtic area of Iberia. Even more representative in this are the traditional side braids, and wearing scale armor:
Gaius Servilius Vatia minted coins about his experience against the Macedonians or about the experience of his ancestors during the Punic Wars. The coins you are referring have been reused several times by Servilius family.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Servilius_Pulex_Geminus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Servilius_Vatia
I think you have confused him with Quintus Servilius Caepio that fought against Viriathus. But actually the two of them are unrelated (Servilii Caepiones vs. Servilii Gemini) or only from a very distant ancestor. There is no reason to believe Gaius Servilius Vatia minted anything about the Lusitanian Wars.
4 hours ago, Ardworix said:The portico I referred to, as far as I remember, is from the Augustus period, in reference to the victory in the Cantabra War, and for that reason it bears weapons, such as the caetra, and the gladius hispaniensis, undoubtedly of Galaic origin, other weapons are in reference to other conquests, and that can correlate the squamata loric among which, it is a possibility....
You are confusing three friezes/reliefs, one you mentioned with a caetra and a very plausible sword from the Iberian Peninsula but is located in Rome at the porta flaminia. The two others are from Molise and Abruzzo in Italy. Distant from hundreds of kilometers.
5 hours ago, Ardworix said:
There was a museum exhibition on this vase, as the publication of the museum said:
QuoteLa calidad artística del Vaso de los Guerreros con Coraza[1] de Edeta (Tossal de Sant Miquel de Llíria) supera la de cualquier otra pintura cerámica indígena del tardo-helenismo mediterráneo occidental. La época a la que pertenece, sin embargo, asiste al desplazamiento de las narraciones escenificadas de formato mediano o pequeño a soportes distintos a los vasos cerámicos.
[1]El término coraza, utilizado en la primera publicación de este vaso, se mantiene aquí sin presuponer que sea técnicamente o militarmente adecuado, dado que podría tratarse de una simple cota textil.
The artistic quality of the Vessel of the Warriors with Cuirasses [1] from Edeta (Tossal de Sant Miquel de Llíria) surpasses that of any other indigenous ceramic painting of the late-Hellenic western Mediterranean. The period to which it belongs, however, is witness to the displacement of medium or small-format staged narratives to supports other than ceramic vessels.
[1] The term cuirass, used in the first publication of this vase, is kept here without assuming that it is technically or militarily adequate, since it could be a simple textile coat.
I am also reporting the account of the user Trarco, which translated this quote from Quesada-Sanz on the matter:
<<The passive defensive weapons depicted on the Vessel (armour, helmets) present other problems. The horses on this vessel are represented using a conventional filler pattern to indicate their coat, which was previously misinterpreted by A. McBride, a great foreign artist but one with little knowledge about Hispanic archaeological realities, as scale or mail armour. His magnificent drawings were later imitated by others (for example, Alcaide and Vela) and have created—above all among amateurs— the idea of a cataphract “armoured” cavalry, which never existed in Iberia, nor in all the Mediterranean region in this period. Even in the far-off Persian world, during this period there was only some much lighter barding in use.
All the figures on the Vessel wear a type of "coselete" (light armour vest), perhaps with sleeves made from another material. The part which covers the chest (sometimes down to the diaphragm, sometimes to the belly) is covered with a scaled pattern which has caused many to think of metallic protection. Moreover, the lower abdomen is covered with what, without doubt, appears to be pteryges, hanging strips of organic material (usually leather or linen) which gave the wearer a certain degree of protection without restricting their movement. They seem to be wearing some type of metallic armour of which there were a great variety in use from Greece to the south of Gall via Italy. The majority of those who support this theory – including the aforementioned artist – believe that the Vessel depicts scaled armour (see the majority of the references already cited). This type of armour was usually made up of small plates, normally made of bronze, sewn onto a textile support. It is a type of armour well-known in the western Mediterranean and Asia from the Bronze Age, and to a far lesser extent in Greece during the Iron Age. However, in Iberia (as in the Celtic world) no scaled armour of this type is known, nor represented on other media (sculptures, offerings, or even other ceramics). It was rare even in Italy, and in the classical Greek world it was used only occasionally as a complement to a type of textile armour (linothorax). But at the end of the third century neither the Carthaginians nor Romans appear to have used this type of protection; the legionaries in particular, as Polybius says (VI, 23, 14 15), wore a small bronze square on their chest at the most, and only the most affluent wore a coat of iron chainmail. This second option — the coat of mail — has also been suggested for the Llírian warriors, but these coats of mail from the 3rd to 2nd centuries BCE did not have pteryges and were furthermore an absolutely rarity in Iberia (in fact, not a single piece from a coat of mail is known to have existed in Iberia before the Caesarean period, in the middle of the 1st century BCE). Moreover, the decorative pattern used on the Vessel does not seem to be that for ring-woven mail, which is usually depicted in a different way in the visual arts (Quesada and Rueda, 2017). Finally, other authors have suggested armour made from bronze sheets, small rectangular plates sewn together, of which there is no iconographic or archaeological evidence in Iberia and which was not used – or barely used – in the central Mediterranean region in this period. Moreover, plate armour is normally depicted in a much simpler way using a pattern of small squares or rectangles. Only the penultimate infantryman has his entire torso covered by a pattern of crossed lines forming small diamonds (which only cover the abdomen and belly of the rest of the figures), but the diagonal lines would not be adequate to represent plate amour, whose lines are clearly vertical and horizontal, and are represented in this way on some small Etruscan offerings, for example. The most probable explanation is that the Llírian warriors are wearing a type of quilted protection, more likely made from textile than leather. In fact, the scale pattern was, for example, used on Greek ceramics to represent both metal scales and organic protective wear (the aegis or skin of Amalthea’s goat which protected Athena) and even the wings of deities such as Thanatos and Hypnos, such as on the famous vessel decorated by the painter Euphronios. In fact, Anderson explained many years ago that the scales in Greek black-figure paintings were normally used to indicate “hair on a hide... or even as a decorative motif on cloth.>>https://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?797309-Iberian-Linen-armor
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On 31/01/2016 at 10:32 PM, Ardworix said:
The scamatta lorica appears to have been originally of use of the Lusitanians, and later copied by the Romans as the "glaudius hispaniensis".
6 hours ago, Ardworix said:como la malla quota y la lorica squamata
You claimed this several times but the reliefs you used as references are those:
On 27/10/2018 at 7:37 PM, Genava55 said:
Those reliefs are dated from Augustean and Tiberian periods. Those kinds of monument generally mixes the weapons from various foes and the reliability is low. For example multiple Gallo-Roman monuments depict amazon-like pelte alongside other weapons. Furthermore, even if this was indeed weapons taken from the Cantabrian wars, I wouldn't say that the Romans took the lorica squamata from the Lusitanians.
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21 hours ago, Stan` said:
@Genava55 Indeed it's hard to keep track of everything. My biggest problems with civ design when it comes to art has always been the lack of cohesion of information. 60 threads of pictures everywhere with random discussion happening in the middle of them. I think @Sundiata managed to get it organised the best for the Kushites probably because there have been little other voices talking about it.
Of course there are the civ wiki pages but those only describe units accurately most of the time.
I think it could be beneficial to have an organised place to all of this, publicly editable but with reviews so people could make suggestions without it being a complete mess.
They have to be removed from the han_china mod on Github before they are even included in the game.
Ok, for what I saw it doesn't seem there was an issue on the historical accuracy but on the water level of the rice field. Ancient Chineses didn't rely exclusively on rice farming, there was millet notably, but I don't see issues in having rice fields for a faction based on Han dynasty.
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1 hour ago, maroder said:
I was going through the tread again and I would again like to discuss or at least understand why rice fields would be historically inaccurate.
What, when and where? I mean what were the arguments, when the debate happened and where on the forum?
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For a New Faction: Lusitanian.
in General Discussion
Posted · Edited by Genava55
It is not I don't want to include it. It is simply a lack of evidences.
I heard your opinion but I am not convinced.
You claimed a lot of weird things:
You claimed the Celts were commonly using scale armor but it is not the case.
You claimed there was a Celtiberian ceramic proving it, you didn't provide the evidence when I asked for.
You claimed there were accounts from classical authors suggesting its use, but you simply said something weird about Strabo mentioning heavy infantry (which doesn't mean lorica squamata).
In the end there is only one plausible evidence in a strictly Iberian context, Llíria. But even a specialist like Quesada-Sanz (which is THE specialist concerning Iberian warfare and armament) is unconvinced about the possibility it represents a metallic armor. So if you want absolutely to depict a scale armor, it should at least be kept for the Iberians.