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Genava55
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Posts posted by Genava55
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The best depiction of a non-classical naval battle with simpler ships:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Delta
.jpg)
Some Phoenician transport/battle ships:
https://www.worldhistory.org/image/6990/phoenician-assyrian-warship/
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On 28/10/2022 at 3:48 AM, Ultimate Aurelian said:
Is scale armor accurate for Celts?
It is one of the current textures for the Gaul champion swordsman and champion cavalry.
Metallic scales never have been found in a Celtic context. Currently there is no direct remain certifying the presence of organic body protection during the Celtic Iron Age. Although there are native depictions of them during the 5th and 4th century BC, and probably during the 2nd century BC.
There are also a few quotes suggesting some knowledge about organic body protection:
Pliny the Elder, Natural History, 8, 73: The Gauls embroider them in a different manner from that which is practiced by the Parthians. Wool is compressed also for making a felt, which, if soaked in vinegar, is capable of resisting even iron; and, what is still more, after having gone through the last process, wool will even resist fire; the refuse, too, when taken out of the vat of the scourer, is used for making mattresses, an invention, I fancy, of the Gauls. At all events, it is by Gallic names that we distinguish the different sort of mattresses at the present day[...]
Polybius, Histories, 2, 30, 1: But when the javelineers advanced, as is their usage, from the ranks of the Roman legions and began to hurl their javelins in well-aimed volleys, the Celts in the rear ranks indeed were well protected by their trousers and cloaks[…]
Plutarch, Life of Marcellus, 7: Meanwhile the king of the Gauls espied him, and judging from his insignia that he was the commander, rode far out in front of the rest and confronted him, shouting challenges and brandishing his spear. His stature exceeded that of the other Gauls, and he was conspicuous for a suit of armour which was set off with gold and silver and bright colours and all sorts of broideries; it gleamed like lightning. Accordingly, as Marcellus surveyed the ranks of the enemy, this seemed to him to be the most beautiful armour, and he concluded that it was this which he had vowed to the god. He therefore rushed upon the man, and by a thrust of his spear which pierced his adversary's breastplate, and by the impact of his horse in full career, threw him, still living, upon the ground, where, with a second and third blow, he promptly killed him.
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19 minutes ago, Duileoga said:
Good morning or afternoon;
-I think the buildings with freshly laid green leaves seem prettier than with dry yellowish leaves, but you can change in future if you wish.
Sorry for the inconveniences*
I agree and I don't mind.
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35 minutes ago, AIEND said:
The material characteristics of bamboo limit its use, either made of thinner bamboo can throw javelins or light spears, such weapons are often disposable, and there is no need to care too much about the strength of the pole.
Either use very thick and long bamboo to make a pike for both hands (the length of this type of bamboo pike used in China is generally more than 5 meters), but it cannot adapt to the dry environment.Yeah we agree.
I also find it weird to see bamboo spears among North-African people in a dry environment.
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20 minutes ago, AIEND said:
I also doubt that bamboo will be used as a weapon, not just Garamantines, but Magadha as well.
I know that some African tribes did use the bamboo for light spears and javelins, like the Zande. But a heavy spear for close-combat in a battlefield, I don't think it would be suitable.
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11 hours ago, Duileoga said:
-I do not have idea
, I relied on the references:
Sorry for the inconveniences*
3 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:The picture on the left is from Osprey's Rome's Enemies 5- The Desert Frontier
This is what the caption says:
It is very probably bamboo. Which grows in the Sub-Saharan region. But I doubt it is plausible for Garamantines.
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4 hours ago, Duileoga said:
2.escaramucero-------------------------------------(¿?)
3.hondero-------------------------------------(¿?)What wood are spears and javelins made of?
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Source about the chariots:
https://africanrockart.britishmuseum.org/thematic/chariots-in-the-sahara/
https://www.temehu.com/chariots.htm
https://europabarbarorum.fandom.com/wiki/Merkabim_Garamantim_(Garamantine_Chariots)
Herodotus, book 4:
QuoteNow, concerning the lands inhabited by Libyans, the Adyrmachidae are the people that live nearest to Egypt; they follow Egyptian customs for the most part, but dress like other Libyans. Their women wear twisted bronze ornaments on both legs; their hair is long; each catches her own lice, then bites and throws them away. [2] They are the only Libyans that do this, and who show the king all virgins that are to be married; the king then takes the virginity of whichever of these pleases him. These Adyrmachidae extend from Egypt to the harbor called Plynus. 169.
Next to them are the Giligamae, who inhabit the country to the west as far as the island of Aphrodisias; in between lies the island of Platea, which the Cyrenaeans colonized, and on the mainland is the harbor called Menelaus, and the Aziris which was a settlement of the Cyrenaeans. Here the country of silphium begins, [2] which reaches from the island of Platea to the entrance of the Syrtis. This people is like the others in its customs. 170.
The next people west of the Giligamae are the Asbystae, who live inland of Cyrene, not coming down to the coast, for that is Cyrenaean territory. These drive four-horse chariots to a greater extent than any other Libyans; it is their practice to imitate most of the Cyrenaean customs. 171.
QuoteAt a distance of ten days' journey again from the Ammonians along the sandy ridge, there is a hill of salt like that of the Ammonians, and springs of water, where men live; this place is called Augila; it is to this that the Nasamones come to gather palm-fruit. 183.
After ten days' journey again from Augila there is yet another hill of salt and springs of water and many fruit-bearing palms, as at the other places; men live there called Garamantes, an exceedingly great nation, who sow in earth which they have laid on the salt. [2] The shortest way to the Lotus Eaters' country is from here, thirty days' journey distant. Among the Garamantes are the cattle that go backward as they graze, the reason being that their horns curve forward; [3] therefore, not being able to go forward, since the horns would stick in the ground, they walk backward grazing. Otherwise, they are like other cattle, except that their hide is thicker and harder to the touch. [4] These Garamantes go in their four-horse chariots chasing the cave-dwelling Ethiopians: for the Ethiopian cave-dwellers are swifter of foot than any men of whom tales are brought to us. They live on snakes and lizards and such-like creeping things. Their speech is like no other in the world: it is like the squeaking of bats. 184.
Another ten days' journey from the Garamantes there is again a salt hill and water, where men live called Atarantes. These are the only men whom we know who have no names; for the whole people are called Atarantes, but no man has a name of his own. [2] When the sun is high, they curse and very foully revile him, because his burning heat afflicts their people and their land. [3] After another ten days' journey there is again a hill of salt, and water, and men living there. Near to this salt is a mountain called Atlas, whose shape is slender and conical; and it is said to be so high that its heights cannot be seen, for clouds are always on them winter and summer. The people of the country call it the pillar of heaven. [4] These men get their name, which is Atlantes, from this mountain. It is said that they eat no living creature, and see no dreams in their sleep. 185.
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Age of Empires II: Definitive Edition Getting Return of Rome DLC
We announced an upcoming Age of Empires II: Definitive DLC, Return of Rome. Thinking the key art looks familiar? You’d be right! We’re adding Age of Empires: Definitive Edition content, playable in the Age of Empires II: Definitive Edition client! We’ll be sharing more details in the not too distant future so stay tuned for more information.
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On 26/10/2022 at 5:42 PM, Ultimate Aurelian said:
A picture i found online, labelled as ''Gallic warriors in the Alps''.
Not sure how accurate it is, the winged helmet looks like something from a 19th century reconstruction.
A better version:
It was drawn by Giuseppe Rava => https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100051111677742
Sadly this is one of his worst illustration. Probably due to a lack of advices and a lack of knowledge about the material.
Yes the winged helmet is a weird interpretation from the early 19th century when people thought that the cheek-guards of helmets were metallic supports for decorative wings... that's why you can see it on some statues depicting Vercingetorix and Ambiorix. The bronze cuirass is also something from the Hallstatt C period (800–620 BC), totally anachronistic with the rest of the items.
Giuseppe Rava made a better one recently, thanks to the advice of François Gilbert, a French reenactor:
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1 hour ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:
I wonder if this will be done by forgotten empires like the other definitive editions or if it will be done by relic who made aoe4. Different things can be said about the two groups lol.
Probably since Forgotten Empires made the Extended Edition of AoM. But it could be also Tantalus Media who worked on AoE III DE.
I doubt Relic would work on it.
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Age of Mythology Retold - Announce Trailer
“Bringing the Definitive Edition treatment to Age of Mythology, the game will feature beautiful graphics, updated gameplay and more,” the developer said on Tuesday.
“We know that the Age of Mythology community has been hopefully waiting for a Definitive Edition, and we’ll be delivering. We’re working hard to bring you the glory of the original game with updated graphics, features and more. Stay tuned for more news.”
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33 minutes ago, AIEND said:
I am inclined that it is not that the spearman and pikeman can kill the cavalry faster, but that the spearman and pikeman are not easily killed by the cavalry, so as long as the cavalry adopts the attack-disengagement tactic, and repeats this, it can effectively attack the infantry, Especially its side and rear, this time highlights the important role of ranged infantry (especially archers) against cavalry in reality, and in order to prevent enemy cavalry from directly attacking ranged infantry, you need to make melee infantry form a box, Protects ranged infantry.
I will add another point, the best defense against cavalry is also a dense formation. The success of pikemen during the Middle Ages was due to their formation and their training to fight in such order. Ancient pikemen weren't created to face cavalry but infantry.
Roman legionaries were very resilient to cavalry charges while not using any spears. Parthians and Sarmatians used horse archers to weaken their lines before any charge and even with that, they struggled to break the formation.
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2 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:
The crossbow mentioned here may pontentially fit the Yayoi period, the dating is not very clear.
http://gunbai-militaryhistory.blogspot.com/2019/01/dokyu-japanese-crossbow.html
This link mentions something about a crossbow trigger possibly dating to that period as well.
Interesting.
I also found this:
bronze-age-maritime-and-warrior-dynamics-in-island-east-asia.pdf
QuoteSome of the clearest evidence for maritime activity in the Yayoi comes from islands in the Tsushima straits between Korea and Japan. In its description of Tsushima and Iki, the Wei zhi noted the islanders ‘travel by boat to buy grain in markets to the north and south’ (Reference KidderKidder 2007: 12). Sites on Iki island such as Karakami and Haru-no-tsuji have produced a rich, ‘international’ material culture including Chinese coins, Lelang pottery from the Han dynasty commandery in northern Korea, a three-winged bronze arrowhead (probably a crossbow bolt) (Figure 4) and even bones from Japan’s earliest domesticated cat (Reference SeyockSeyock 2003; Reference TakesueTakesue 2009). Footnote 3 Haru-no-tsuji also has Japan’s oldest known harbour. Trading connections between Kyushu and Korea at this time are clear from Yayoi pottery and Chinese coins – presumably used in exchange – found at Nŭkto on the south-east coast of Korea dating from the fourth century BC to the first century AD (Reference Choy and RichardsChoy & Richards 2009).
QuoteYayoi pots were transported to Okinawa from Kyushu, mostly from the Satsuma peninsula (Reference Nakazono, Matsumoto, Bessho and TomiiNakazono 2011; Reference Shinzato and TakamiyaShinzato 2018). That Yayoi pottery in Okinawa had a certain value can be deduced from the fact that it was often repaired when cracked. The mainland Japanese, by contrast, were less interested in Okinawan products except for shells, and only one Okinawan pot has been found on Kyushu. This pot was reported at the Takahashi site on the Satsuma peninsula (Kagoshima), a settlement which Reference Nakazono, Matsumoto, Bessho and TomiiNakazono (2011) regards as a major shell trade entrepôt. Aside from pottery, only a handful of exotic objects reached Okinawa at this time. These include glass beads, spindle whorls, coins, fragments of iron axes, a piece of the hilt of a bronze sword, a fragment of a Han bronze mirror and Lelang pottery (Reference Nakazono, Matsumoto, Bessho and TomiiNakazono 2011). Three-winged bronze arrowheads of Han crossbow style have been found at Uken and Uza-no-hamayabaru on Okinawa (Ashiya Board of Education 2007). Many of these artefacts can be linked with the East Asian mainland, raising the possibility that they were imported directly rather than via Kyushu, although no ordinary Chinese or Korean ceramics have been excavated from these Okinawan sites.
QuoteEven as iron gained ground in Yayoi Japan, however, bronze arrowheads became common from the first century AD, a change which, according to Reference MatsugiMatsugi (2001: 73), may reflect the influence of Han China, presumably through its commandery at Lelang in Korea. A mould for casting bronze arrowheads has been found at Sugu-okamoto (@#$%uoka). Most Yayoi bronze arrowheads are small: less than 4 cm long and around 3 g in weight. Some Japanese scholars once thought that they were too small to have been used in actual warfare, but several skeletons with such arrowheads deeply embedded in the bone have been found at Aoya-kamijichi (Tottori) (Reference MatsugiMatsugi 2001: 74). Bronze arrowheads of similar size are known in Europe. The 134 bronze arrowheads found at the Late Bronze Age Wrocław–Widawa site in Poland had lengths ranging between 2.8 and 4.8 cm (Reference Baron, Puziewicz, Nowak, Sych, Miazga and ZiobroBaron et al. 2020). In China, small bronze arrowheads were also used with crossbows, which were in use by at least the fourth century BC (Reference WrightWright 2005). In Japan, a Yayoi-period crossbow part has been found at Himebaranishi (Shimane), although the excavation report concludes that, since it appears less practical than examples from Han China, it was probably a crossbow-shaped ritual artefact (Reference AdachiAdachi 1999: 126). Even if this interpretation were correct, however, it would imply that the Yayoi people were familiar with actual crossbows. More than ten three-winged bronze crossbow bolts are known from Yayoi sites located in Okinawa, Nagasaki, @#$%uoka, Kagawa and Shimane prefectures (Ashiya Board of Education 2007) (Figure 4).
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from the book, Yayoi and early Kofun
Spoiler
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7 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:
hay que buscar varias referencias. voy a buscar monedas.
ya voy hacerlo.
@Genava55 you are my researcher number one.
Garamantian inscription with the shape of a hand:
Garamantian tombstone:
This is similar to a Carthaginian symbol, called the hamsa.
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6 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:
It seems a lot of Germanic armor was actually made by Celts and Romans (And acquired through trade or looting); it makes sense they would do a similar thing with their other neighbours.
Weapons could have also been political gifts or earned from any experience as mercenaries or auxiliaries.
There are some Celtic helmets found in a Germanic context but from the Przeworsk culture (related to the Lugii and the Vandals).
For the Suebi, I really think it should be coherent with the description from Tacitus:
QuoteEven iron is not plentiful; this has been inferred from the sort of weapons they have. Only a few of them use swords or large lances: they carry spears - called frameae in their language - with short and narrow blades, but so sharp and easy to handle that they can be used, as required, either at close quarters or in long-range fighting. Their horsemen are content with a shield and a spear; but the foot-soldiers also rain javelins on their foes: each of them carries several, and they hurl them to immense distances, being naked or lightly clad in short cloaks. There is nothing ostentatious about their equipment: only their shields are picked out in the colours of their choice. Few have breastplates, and only one here and there a helmet of metal or hide. Their horses are not remarkable for either beauty or speed, and are not trained to execute various evolutions as ours are; they ride them straight ahead, or with just a single wheel to the right, keeping their line so well that not a man falls behind the rest. Generally speaking, their strength lies in infantry rather than cavalry. So foot-soldiers accompany the cavalry into action, their speed of foot being such that they can easily keep up with the charging horsemen. The best men are chosen from the whole body of young warriors and placed with the cavalry in front of the main battle line. The number of these. is precisely fixed: a hundred are drawn from each district, and 'The Hundred' is the name they bear among their fellow-countrymen. Thus what was originally a mere number has come to be a title of distinction. The battle-line is made up of wedge-shaped formations. To give ground, provided that you return to the attack, is considered good tactics rather than cowardice. They bring back the bodies of the fallen even when a battle hangs in the balance. To throw away one's shield is the supreme disgrace, and the man who has thus dishonoured himself is debarred from attendance at sacrifice or assembly. Many such survivors from the battlefield have ended their shame by hanging themselves.
It is only an issue due to a lack of guidelines to represent the gain in experience. The current approach is based on Mediterranean civs in vanilla 0AD which is inappropriate for "barbarians".
Anyway, if you want a list of the helmets you could use for the Suebians:
- Gelduba helmet with the feathers
- Wooden helmets from Denmark
- A sort of helmet made from hide as mentioned by Tacitus
- Coolus-Mannheim helmets are esthetically suited (although a real evidence would have been better, it is plausible)
- Modified Roman helmets for veterans and ancient auxiliaries
- The eagle helmet from the Portonaccio Sarcophagus
- The Stanica Tbilisskaya / skeleton helmet.
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3 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:
I have seen that they are all Celtic helmets similar to the Roman coolus imperial.
The Roman Coolus is a bronze helmet. Some of them belong to Imperial Italic serie.
https://www.res-bellica.com/en/tag-prodotto/coolus-en/
The evolution is probably from the late Montefortino
Montefortino => Buggenum => Coolus type C
Maybe there is a bit of influence from the Coolus-Mannheim which is Celtic (and in bronze). But I think the Buggenum is a better explanation.
3 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:Coolus type C.
This is a Port helmet. This is the ancestor of the Imperial Gallic, not of the Coolus.
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3 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
I appreciate the images of charcoal.
The black and white drawings are indeed more useful but at least it gives a better idea of the perspective
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50 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:
Those helmets are interesting, they remind me of the banded helmets worn by Germanics later in migration period.
Perhaos those were influenced by Roman helmets, or the Auxilia in the picture are using an earlier Germanic helmet?
The actual consensus is that the migration period helmets come from the Sassanian/Parthian helmets. This is the origin of the so-called Spangenhelm and Roman ridge helmets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spangenhelm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamellar_helmet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Roman_ridge_helmet
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1058733865261502465.html
But it is plausible the Germanic auxiliaries at this time got their helmets from the Sarmatians or the Dacians. Which would be an earlier version of the segmented helmets. A different branch. Those are nicknamed "skeleton helmets" although this is not a suitable name from a typological pov.
Some people think it is related to the Samartian find from Stanica Tbilisskaya:
And it is indeed true that later Germans used such design for their helmets.
Here is Thorsberg helmet:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorsberger_Moor
And here is Benty Grange helmet:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benty_Grange_helmet
Valsgarde 6 helmet (burial N°6):
Valsgarde 5 helmet (burial N°5):
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[Research] Naval reference all possible ships and boats
in Tutorials, references and art help
Posted
The sea battles of the Vikings were fought according to the same principles as battles on land. Each side roped most of their ships together side by side to make a platform on which to form a shield wall. The attackers tried to storm this platform, as e. g. in the battles of Hafrsfjord in 872, Svöldr in 1000 and Nissa in 1062. Ship after ship was taken and then detached from the formation to drift away. Both fleets used to keep some ships outside the formation to manoeuver; these were used to attack the enemy by going alongside and boarding, in a hailstorm of arrows, stones and spears from both sides. If the defenders succeeded in killing the attacking rowers, or if the oars of the attacking ship were broken, the attack often failed through inability to manoeuver. However, the elements of a real naval battle of the Classical age – outmanoeuvering, ramming, forcing the opponent to sail against the wind, or the use of catapults – were unknown among the Vikings. Most sea battles took place in quiet coastal waters or river mouths, where there was no space for such tactics.
When fighting amongst themselves, the Vikings’ major battles almost invariably took place at sea- witness Hafrs Fjord in 872, Svöldr in 1000 and Nissa in 1062, to cite but three examples. Nevertheless, they made every effort to ensure that a naval action was as much like a land battle as possible, arranging their fleets in lines or wedges; one side-or sometimes both-customarily roped together the largest of their ships gunwale to gunwale to form large, floating platforms. The biggest and best-manned ships usually formed the middle part of the line, with the commander’s vessel invariably positioned in the very centre, since he normally had the largest vessel of all. High-sided merchantmen were sometimes positioned on the flanks of the line too. The prows of the longer ships extended out in front of the battle-line and some of them, called bardi, were therefore armoured with iron plates at stem and stern, which bore the brunt of the fighting. Some even had a series of iron spikes called a beard (skegg) round the prow, designed to hole enemy ships venturing close enough to board.
In addition to this floating platform there were usually a number of additional individual ships positioned on the flanks and in the rear, whose tasks were to skirmish with their opposite numbers; to attack the enemy platform if he had one; to put reinforcements aboard their own platform when necessary; and to pursue the enemy in flight. Masts were lowered in battle, and all movement was by oar, so the loss of a ship’s oars in collision with another vessel effectively crippled it. Nevertheless, the classical diekplus manoeuvre, which involved shearing off an enemy vessel’s oars with the prow of one’s own ship, does not seem to have been deliberately employed, and nor was ramming.
The main naval tactic was simply to row against an enemy ship, grapple and board it, and clear it with hand weapons before moving on to another vessel, sometimes cutting the cleared ship loose if it formed the wing of a platform. The platforms were attacked by as many ships as could pull alongside. Boarding was usually preceded by a shower of arrows and, at closer range, javelins, iron-shod stakes and stones, as a result of which each oarsman was often protected by a second man, who deflected missiles with his shield. On the final approach prior to boarding, shields were held overhead ‘so closely that no part of their holders was left uncovered’. Some ships carried extra supplies of stones and other missiles. Stones are extensively recorded in accounts of Viking naval battles, and were clearly the favourite form of missile. The largest were dropped from high-sided vessels on to (and even through) the decks of ships which drew alongside to board.
OLAF I, TRYGGVASON, KING OF NORWAY (c. 964-1000)
King from 995, probably brought up in Russia after the killing of his father. He took part in raids in the Baltic and on expeditions to England. He was probably the victor of Maldon in 991. He allied with Sweyn Forkbeard. Olaf converted to Christianity in England, promising not to return. He overthrew Hakon to become King of Norway, encouraging the conversion of Norway and Iceland. He was killed at Svöld, fighting an alliance of Danes and Swedes. It was said that, recognising defeat, he leaped from his ship the Long Serpent (the largest ship recorded in the sagas) and drowned. Olaf Tryggvason’s Saga is part of the Heimskringla. There were tales that he survived.
SWEYN I HAROLDSSON (FORKBEARD), KING OF DENMARK (d. 1014)
King from 987, son of Harold Bluetooth from whom he seized the Danish throne. He led raids against England in 991 and 994 with Olaf Tryggvason. He opposed his former comrade in Norway. Sweyn’s ally, Jarl Erik of Lade, defeated Olaf at Svöld in 1000. As king Sweyn took over Hedeby and dominated the Wends. He led expeditions to England in 1003 and 1006. In 1013 he came to defeat Aethelred II, who fled. He controlled England but died in February 1014 at Gainsborough in Lincolnshire. In Denmark his son Harold succeeded but his most famous son was Cnut the Great.
https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2020/07/01/sea-battles-of-the-vikings/