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According to unit roles (see http://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=20103) here is how I think which class could counter which other, depending on the situation of course. Note that this takes running and charging in account for a future implementation (and not just damage/range/armor/cost). It will also vary a bit if some units have different strengths and weaknesses in different civilization, but the general counter should remain the same not to get lost (thus it would be more or less effective). In short (but with some exception) ranged > melee infantry Cavalry > ranged infantry Range with melee cover > cavalry Then we have short/medium/long range melee infantry (being individual, small group, pack figthers respectively) Short/medium/long range infantry (shorter = easier to cover but easily outranged) Light/heavy cavalry (mobility vs durability) Spearmen With medium range, they can fight in two rows, giving them more power when in tight formation. Generally, strength and durability is given when in formation but decreases their speed (thus more prone to hit'n run), less strength and durability when individual (thus more prone to melee fight) Counters: Swordmen when in formation, using outnumbering in fighting Cavalry but not that much Countered by: Swordmen when dispersed (losing their outnumbering effect) Ranged units by hit'n runnnig Elephant, just being crushed Pikemen With long range, they can fight even more than spearmen when in tight formation. The counter scheme is roughfly the same. Counters: Swordmen, spearmen when in formation, using outnumbering in fighting Cavalry Countered by: Swordmen and spearmen when dispersed Ranged units by hit'n running Elephant if not being carefull Swordmen With short melee range, they are the best individual fighters. Counters: Individual melee units Countered by: Cavalry Archers (see archers counter) Elephant Javelinists Short range hit'n run specialist Counters: Spear and pikemen, by forcing to disrupt, or even just killing them in place while hit'n running Javelin cavalry with their speed advantage not being useable (and being less cost/efficient) Elephant with target spreading Countered by: Light and heavy cavalry if uncovered (very short distance to run) Covered archers and slingers by not getting in range Archers Long range troop Counters: Disrupted infantry (be it spear and pikes not in tight formation or swordmen not in testudo) Countered by: Slingers if massed (outrange) Cavalry when uncovered (by reducing their range advantage) Siege, almost ineffective Slingers Long anti-mass troop Counters: Massed infantry Better against siege than archers, but not skirmishers (otherwise mini siege > siege) Early defenses before siege weapons Countered by: Cavalry when uncovered Heavy cavalry (read spear cav) Counters: Everything in one on one (except elephant), not that much for siege Countered by: A few pikemen, a bit more spearmen Javelin cavalry by hit'n running Elephant Skirmishers, archers, slingers (in that order) if they are well covered Light cavalry (read sword cavalry) Counters: Uncovered siege Ranged units if not well covered Can't be hit'n run by javelin cavalry Countered by: Spearmen, pikemen Skirmishers, archers, slingers (in that order) if they are well covered, but less than heavy cav Javelin cavalry Fast hit'n run troop, close to infantry javelinist except for cavalry. Counters: Spear and pikemen, by disrupting them, or even just killing in hit'n run Elephant with target spreading and hit'n run Countered by: Javelinist by being less cost/efficient Light cavalry if fighting it Archer cavalry Long range cavalry Counters: Everything that can't get in range (melee infantry, javelinists) Countered by: Everything that can get in range (archers, slingers, light cavalry, javelin cavalry) Almost ineffective against siege Elephant That mastodont Counters: All melee units (less for pikemen) Siege Countered by: Javelinists, javelin cavalry (good) Archers, archer cavalry (medium) Slingers (somehow)

I'm not quite sure if I have the time to really come back to this, but I did finish a model relevant to it:

Hello, just a big topic about all of this. Previous charging discussions First some previous discussions: see http://trac.wildfiregames.com/ticket/994 about how charging could work. If tldr, here is a summary (that may be innacurate at some points) : Units could run by double clicking, and be ordered to charge ennemies. When running and charging their stamina reduces until it is depleted and they cannot run anymore. When they stay idle, their stamina replenishes. When charging the first attack is the charge attack, which is better than the regular one. Instead of stamina it could also have distances triggers to increase speed (auto charging when at range) Suggestion (based upon Sibyllae Vox) After reading the previous discussions and as a general thing, KISS (Keep It Stupidly Simple). Players won't have time and focus to manage some stamina bars closely for multiple units, while managing a battle and keeping a good economy/production. There were two way for this: using battalions to reduce the number of controlled entities, or automate the use. I'm currently for the second way (which is not incompatible with the first). Why charging/running Multiple reasons, even more when all infantry and all cavalry are walking at the same speed not to give side effects on resource gathering and such. Get in range faster (melee), evade (ranged)Add an offensive impactSend reinforcmentsRetreatWhy not charging/running It's exhaustiveIt is harder to stay organised and can lead to weaknessesWith this in mind, here is my suggestion Stamina Stamina is used to travel, fight, and charge. I remove it from the economic part (running to get resources faster) because I don't think there is a reason a citizen that would go to war in armour should be less effective that his neighbour that goes with a javelin (they don't work with weapons). Nor I see a reason to add micro in resources gathering. So stamina reduces when units are walking (going accross the map), fighting, and obviously charging. It replenishes when they get "at home" somehow. For walking, when you send reinforcements from far accross the map, your army should make a pause before fighting, or else it would be disadvantaged from the natives who are fresh up. When they fight, they are less effective when exhausted than fresh ones. It is particularly true when charging. Walking reduces stamina slowly, fighting and chargind greatlyStanding idle increases staminaCivil Centre and houses have a regenerative aura that compensate the walking depletion (working at home)Once stamina is below a threshold, units become less effectiveIt may be when stamina is below 50% (or 40, 33 or whatever), attack rate, moving speed and charge attack reduces up to say one half when it comes to 0 stamina. For less micro it can even take only the average stamina of a group (the fresh ones motivating the tired ones). Charging Charging is the fact of going in battle at higher speed and give a blow impact. Some units like archers and slingers may not be able to charge. Single units can charge and formations can do so if they can attack while in formation (phalanx, syntagma, wedge, skirmish and maybe testudo). It is easy to run individually, more harder to run everyone at the same pace while keeping cohesion. So you have some options in the battle Charging to get in battle quickly with an offensive bonus but may break your formation and remove some armour bonus or keep your formation (like phalanx) to charge slower but surelyDo not charge and wait in formation, with full stamina and formation bonus to hold the charge and take a stamina advantage on a longer battleCharge attack can then be just a bonus to the regular attack instead of a new one (at least, when it is not the Persian scythed chariot). This bonus can then easily be reduced when stamina is not high enough to perform well. There should be also a minimum running range for the charge, not to charge multiple time. Running Running is also usefull for example just to run away or pursue. This is particularly usefull for skirmishers to hit'n and run (well, run…) and archers to run for retreating units. The charge speed is then used defensively to avoid being in the battle or offensively to pursue. Everyone should be able to run. But this doesn't say how to handle charging. Having a special command like double clicking seems to me too microish. This is when stances comes into play. Stances Currently stances doesn't do much, especially the first two ones (violent and aggressive). By just tweaking them with charging ability, it can automate some behaviours. Passive: stay like this, don't do anything and flee (like it currently does)Stand ground: stay there, wait for incoming ennemies or new orders, don't charge nor evade anyway (again this is already the case)Defensive: don't charge, respond to nearby threats, this is almost the current behaviour, but with ranged units automatically running back to melee threats (auto hit'n run)Aggressive: attack with charge and charge nearby threats, ranged units automatically evade (or not, I don't know). But move without chargingViolent: always run and charge, even just for moving, while an ennemy is on sight, either to attack or retreatWhy only with ennemies on violent? Because I don't feel there is a need to make an army run all day long to get reinforcements (they would just arrive exhausted anyway and get killed) or use it to run to the trees and metal mines. The objective, with some nice unit AI to automatically pick decent targets, is to move micro from triggering a lot of orders to switching stances. If you want your troops to wait for incoming, then charge when rather close, use stand ground and switch to aggressive to say "now!", if you want to hold a line use defensive and if you want to surprise use violent to run around. You can also set your ranged units on defensive to protect a line then switch to aggressive when the ennemy is derouted to pursue them. With groups shortcuts and stance shortcuts, battles could even be run only with the keyboard (well not very effectively)

New Unit meshes do though...

Rams are OP. Keep their high resistance against ranged unit but make them come down quickly when facing melee troops.

Should probs be more like this but with some linothorax and scale variations too. Pteruges variants. etc. Also, no silver helms. Here is good reference image too:

Well, I finished a few more today:

Hey nice post Don't forget #3177 , problem is how can a player manage the stealth stamina bar of a unit if it loses points while walking ?

New tech at Civic Center: Urban Cohort, unlock training of Roman Legions at Civic Center.

I could make one armor texture if needed though I'd like to avoid that if possible ^^ About the anims... Comparison Interesting threads http://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=20053 http://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19289 I'm trying to make it compatible with old armature. http://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=20071 Someone started making new anims, but left ;( http://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19546

I'd like to thank the developers for the work thry are doing, and wish them the best of luck sorting out problems with pathfinding. Many games have had, or still have, imperfect pathfinding, so it's obviously not an easy job.

A tin can on a stick, with a wooden tv for a monitor.

I'm planning to make them compatible though.