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Specific Name Review: Structures

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10 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Agora on the other hand is pointless since it means 'assembly' and in absolute monarchies assemblies are completely pointless. If citizens were to 'assemble' in a city ruled by an absolute monarch, I think I can guess pretty quickly what would happen to them.

Yes, it means assembly, but also place of assembly and market-place. In Hellenistic times, many Near Eastern cities were refounded as Greek settlements, typically with an agora. (In contrast, royal palaces were usually limited to the capital(s).) The agora no longer had the political function it had in the Athenian democracy, but it continued to be the centre of public life, where citizens would meet, business was conducted, the latest news spread, announcements were made, people would look for customers, work, servants, artists, philosophers, etc. Its Roman equivalent is the forum, the centre of every Roman settlement founded during the Roman Empire.

10 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Ergastḗrion Polémou is a nice expression from an actual writer of the period.

Is it? Ergastḗrion Polémou (workshop of war) sounded artificial to me; τό μηχάνημα (machine, mechanical devise, especially engine of war, used in sieges) and ἡ μηχᾰνοποιΐα (construction of engines of war) are not accompanied by πολέμου; but if it's indeed attested in combination with ἐργαστήριον, then I won't object. Could you give the exact location?

10 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Concerning the archery range.

I believe this structure was only added because Age of Empires had one; it is available for mods, but not used in the default distribution; I hope that stays this way. Anyway, now it is included, it needs an appropiate name. It's probably not reserved exclusively for archery, but also for other ranged weapons, such as javelins. Perhaps this might be useful:

τὸ δ᾽ ἑξῆς τούτοις, οἰκοδομίαι μὲν εἴρηνται γυμνασίων ἅμα καὶ διδασκαλείων κοινῶν τριχῇ κατὰ μέσην τὴν πόλιν, ἔξωθεν δὲ ἵππων αὖ τριχῇ περὶ τὸ ἄστυ γυμνάσιά τε καὶ εὐρυχώρια, τοξικῆς τε καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἀκροβολισμῶν ἕνεκα διακεκοσμημένα, μαθήσεώς τε ἅμα καὶ μελέτης τῶν νέων

To pursue our subject,—we have described buildings for public gymnasia as well as schools in three divisions within the city, and also in three divisions round about the City training-grounds and race-courses for horses, arranged for archery and other long-distance shooting, and for the teaching and practicing of the youth

— Plato Laws 7.804c (translation R. G. Bury 1967)

ἡ εὐρυχωρία (open space) is not perfect, but seems more appropiate than “arsenal”.

Edited by Nescio
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5 hours ago, Nescio said:

Yes, it means assembly, but also place of assembly and market-place. In Hellenistic times, many Near Eastern cities were refounded as Greek settlements, typically with an agora. (In contrast, royal palaces were usually limited to the capital(s).) The agora no longer had the political function it had in the Athenian democracy, but it continued to be the centre of public life, where citizens would meet, business was conducted, the latest news spread, announcements were made, people would look for customers, work, servants, artists, philosophers, etc. Its Roman equivalent is the forum, the centre of every Roman settlement founded during the Roman Empire.

Is it? Ergastḗrion Polémou (workshop of war) sounded artificial to me; τό μηχάνημα (machine, mechanical devise, especially engine of war, used in sieges) and ἡ μηχᾰνοποιΐα (construction of engines of war) are not accompanied by πολέμου; but if it's indeed attested in combination with ἐργαστήριον, then I won't object. Could you give the exact location?

I believe this structure was only added because Age of Empires had one; it is available for mods, but not used in the default distribution; I hope that stays this way. Anyway, now it is included, it needs an appropiate name. It's probably not reserved exclusively for archery, but also for other ranged weapons, such as javelins. Perhaps this might be useful:

τὸ δ᾽ ἑξῆς τούτοις, οἰκοδομίαι μὲν εἴρηνται γυμνασίων ἅμα καὶ διδασκαλείων κοινῶν τριχῇ κατὰ μέσην τὴν πόλιν, ἔξωθεν δὲ ἵππων αὖ τριχῇ περὶ τὸ ἄστυ γυμνάσιά τε καὶ εὐρυχώρια, τοξικῆς τε καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἀκροβολισμῶν ἕνεκα διακεκοσμημένα, μαθήσεώς τε ἅμα καὶ μελέτης τῶν νέων

To pursue our subject,—we have described buildings for public gymnasia as well as schools in three divisions within the city, and also in three divisions round about the City training-grounds and race-courses for horses, arranged for archery and other long-distance shooting, and for the teaching and practicing of the youth

— Plato Laws 7.804c (translation R. G. Bury 1967)

ἡ εὐρυχωρία (open space) is not perfect, but seems more appropiate than “arsenal”.

Of course I will counter that the civic centre should be the centre of civic life, which is where the power resides. There was a square and marketplace but it was not the civic centre, there was no assembly but a representative of the king, and all important decisions generally had to pass by that representative in Seleucid and Ptolemaic settlements.

The individual satrapies had each their regional basileion, as the representative royal palace in which the satrap resided, such as the Seleucid satrapal basileion one of which is described by Polybios (10.31.5): συστησάμενος δὲ τὴν πορείαν ὡς ἐβούλετο καὶ παραγενόμενος ἐπὶ Τάμβρακα, πόλιν ἀτείχιστον, ἔχουσαν δὲ βασίλεια καὶ μέγεθος, αὐτοῦ κατεσκήνωσε. 

Regarding war factory as ΠΟΛΕΜΟΥ ΕΡΓΑΣΤΗΡΙΟΝ see Xenophon, the oldest source, and then use by Polybios, Ploutarchos, Athenaios, etc.: have a look here https://books.google.it/books?id=8IxuDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA197&lpg=PA197&dq="ἐργαστήριον+πολέμου"&source=bl&ots=AZi64h6lOb&sig=ACfU3U2JLQVk0pohKXBDdtmJO-8by99Q8w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwixlYz-6PzfAhWFzKQKHSP3AigQ6AEwAHoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q="ἐργαστήριον πολέμου"&f=false

εὐρυχωρία, yes we can go down that lane too! but didn't you just ask me to specify stathmos because it was too generic and could be used for anything??.

But we could make it an "open space for (of (the)) archers".

Because I did think of "camp of the archers" but it isn't really a camp either. So either we go with the arsenal solution, or the "open space of archers" solution, or a third way. And yes I realize it was taken from AoE, and it is not a disaster in and of itself, just a little difficult to reconcile with historical reality. But, not insurmountable! Let us strike some compromises, consider the merits of the basileion especially: I would give up the Ergasterion Polemou and the Arsenal ideas, to me from a historical viewpoint the basileion is most important for accuracy.

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1 hour ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Of course I will counter that the civic centre should be the centre of civic life, which is where the power resides. There was a square and marketplace but it was not the civic centre, there was no assembly but a representative of the king, and all important decisions generally had to pass by that representative in Seleucid and Ptolemaic settlements.

The individual satrapies had each their regional basileion, as the representative royal palace in which the satrap resided, such as the Seleucid satrapal basileion one of which is described by Polybios (10.31.5): συστησάμενος δὲ τὴν πορείαν ὡς ἐβούλετο καὶ παραγενόμενος ἐπὶ Τάμβρακα, πόλιν ἀτείχιστον, ἔχουσαν δὲ βασίλεια καὶ μέγεθος, αὐτοῦ κατεσκήνωσε. 

To clarify, I'm not disputing political power was in the hands of the monarch and his representative(s); sure, royal palaces certainly did exist; I'm merely questioning whether a royal palace would be the most appropiate choice to represent the core of any settlement, not just a capital but also a village or minor town. In 0 A.D. the civic center is basically a structure with territory root where you can drop off resources, train basic citizens, and garrison units.

Also, satrapies can be best compared to EU member states; the Persian Empire had slightly under 30 satrapies; the Seleucids controlled at one point over half of those, but in the end were reduced to just one, Syria, which became a Roman province in 63 BC.

1 hour ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Regarding war factory as ΠΟΛΕΜΟΥ ΕΡΓΑΣΤΗΡΙΟΝ see Xenophon

Thanks, found it:

ἀξίαν δὲ καὶ ὅλην τὴν πόλιν ἐν ᾗ ἦν τὴν Ἔφεσον θέας ἐποίησεν: ἥ τε γὰρ ἀγορὰ ἦν μεστὴ παντοδαπῶν καὶ ἵππων καὶ ὅπλων ὠνίων, οἵ τε χαλκοτύποι καὶ οἱ τέκτονες καὶ οἱ χαλκεῖς καὶ οἱ σκυτοτόμοι καὶ οἱ ζωγράφοι πάντες πολεμικὰ ὅπλα κατεσκεύαζον, ὥστε τὴν πόλιν ὄντως οἴεσθαι πολέμου ἐργαστήριον εἶναι.

In fact, he made the entire city, where he was staying, a sight worth seeing; for the market was full of all sorts of horses and weapons, offered for sale, and the copper-workers, carpenters, smiths, leather-cutters, and painters were all engaged in making martial weapons, so that one might have thought that the city was really a workshop of war.

— Xenophon Hellenica 3.4.17 (translated by C. L. Brownson 1918)

In other words, Xenophon does not specifically mean a workshop where siege engines are manufactured, he coins the phrase here to describe the state of affairs in the entire city, much in the same way modern historians used the words “war machine” to describe the US economy as a whole during the Second World War.

1 hour ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

εὐρυχωρία, yes we can go down that lane too! but didn't you just ask me to specify stathmos because it was too generic and could be used for anything??.

But we could make it an "open space for (of (the)) archers".

Yes, something like that; I suppose it depends on how one interpretes the “archery range”:

  • a place to train and practice archery
  • a place for archers to be housed
  • a place to store weapons
  • something else?

I'm inclined to go for the first option, hence my suggestion.

1 hour ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Let us strike some compromises, consider the merits of the basileion especially: I would give up the Ergasterion Polemou and the Arsenal ideas, to me from a historical viewpoint the basileion is most important for accuracy.

It's not a negotiation, the purpose of this thread is simply to find the most suitable strings for the specific names in game, not to win an argument or something.

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It is a negotiation since you have valid arguments and I have valid arguments. Who can speak against the fact that there was an agorá in Greek settlements, and who can speak against the fact that the palaces whence the king or his representative resided (basileia) was the centre of city life in the Selekid and Ptolemaic kingdoms. The most appropiate choice to represent the core of any settlement is the basileion, that is definitely my conviction.

A workshop is an ergasterion, whether its work produces hairneedles or the Colossus of Rhodes. The term "workshop of war" was adopted by all the writers referenced because it is an ingenious term conjuring up a bustling image before the inner eye of busy activity and all the atmosphere of arms production and fitting, exercising warriors, etc.

The analogy of the "workshop of war" only works because it would have been immediately understood by all who read it. That is its great force. Anyway of the two terms I find ΜΗΧΑΝΗΤΗΣ superior, so if you want we can make "mekhanetes' workshop" or similar. But if stathmos is too generic, then so must "workshop" be. And "open space" is most generic of all.

We are at a tie, none of your arguments are crazy, and neither are mine. I think yours are ever so slightly inferior to mine, and so do you. It is not like the game is devastated because we call the archery range "open space" vs. "arsenal" or a third option.

So how do we progress? Invite one of the "bosses" to come and make some decisions? :gandalf_w:

Edited by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates
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gaul_barracks.xml, Coriosedlon, "Seat of the army" (personal construction)

gaul_blacksmith.xml, Gobanion, Blacksmith

gaul_civil_centre.xml, Lissos, Palace or royal residence

gaul_corral.xml, Cagion, Corral

gaul_defense_tower.xml, Uxelon, "High-place" or "high-building" (personal construction)

gaul_dock.xml, Counos, Dock

gaul_farmstead.xml, Buta, Farmstead, barn or pigsty

gaul_field.xml, Olca, Field

gaul_fortress.xml, Dunon, Fortress

gaul_house.xml, Tegia, House

gaul_market.xml, Magos, Market

gaul_outpost.xml, Antosolicon, "which-watches-the-border" (personal construction)

**gaul_range.xml, Budinadon, "Field of the troop" (personal construction)

gaul_rotarymill.xml, Brauon, Mill

gaul_sentry_tower.xml, Uxelon, "High-place" or "high-building" (personal construction)

**gaul_stable.xml, Eposton, Stables

gaul_storehouse.xml, Capanon, Storehouse or hut

gaul_tavern.xml, -, Tavern

gaul_temple.xml, Nemeton, Sanctuary

gaul_wall_gate.xml, Duoricos, Gate

gaul_wall_long.xml, Rate, Wall

gaul_wall_medium.xml, Rate, Wall

gaul_wall_short.xml, Rate, Wall

gaul_wall_tower.xml, Uxelon, "High-place" or "high-building" (personal construction)

gaul_wallset_stone.xml, Rate, Wall

gaul_wonder.xml, Stonehenge, Wonder

**gaul_workshop.xml, Miletucerdon, "Workshop-for-the-destruction" or "Workshop-for-the-war" (personal construction)

brit_barracks.xml, Coriosessa, "Seat of the army" (personal construction, variant with a more common root in Brythonic)

brit_blacksmith.xml, Gobanion, Blacksmith

brit_civil_centre.xml, Tigernotreba, Habitat of the ruler/lord (personal construction)

brit_corral.xml, Cagion, Corral

brit_crannog.xml, Cranogion, Island Settlement

brit_defense_tower.xml, Uxelon, "High-place" or "high-building" (personal construction)

brit_dock.xml, Counos, Dock

brit_farmstead.xml, Buta, Farmstead, barn or pigsty

brit_field.xml, Olca, Field

brit_fortress.xml, Dunon, Fortress

brit_house.xml, Tegia, House

brit_kennel.xml, Cunattegia, "hut of the dog" (personal construction)

brit_market.xml, Magos, Market

brit_outpost.xml, Antosolicon, "which-watches-the-border" (personal construction)

**brit_range.xml, Budinadon, "Field of the troop" (personal construction)

brit_rotarymill.xml, Melonas, Mill

brit_sentry_tower.xml, Uxelon, "High-place" or "high-building" (personal construction)

**brit_stable.xml, Eposton, Stables

brit_storehouse.xml, Capanon, Storehouse or hut

brit_temple.xml, Nemeton, Sanctuary

brit_wall_gate.xml, Duoricos, Gate

brit_wall_long.xml, Rate, Wall

brit_wall_medium.xml, Rate, Wall

brit_wall_short.xml, Rate, Wall

brit_wall_tower.xml, Uxelon, "High-place" or "high-building" (personal construction)

brit_wallset_stone.xml, Rate, Wall

brit_wonder.xml, Stonehenge, Wonder

**brit_workshop.xml, Miletucerdon, "Workshop-for-the-destruction" or "Workshop-for-the-war" (personal construction)

 

Proposal:

Gaul: Feast-center, Celicnon "Feast sanctuary"

Gaul: Hemicycle, Remogantion "assembly of the princes" (personal construction)

Gaul: Monument, Mediolanon "Central place"

Briton: Comardrigantion "assembly of the comrade of the high-king" (personal construction)

Briton: Monument, Cantalon "Circular monument"

 

I use mostly the Delamarre’s dictionary of the Gaulish language. But honestly, I have to made up some words because they are not known or they haven't existed at all. I try to avoid the most possible to build some name from different words but I haven't the choice sometimes. I didn't translate the taverne because the whole idea of a taverne as something characteristic of the Gauls bothers me. I suggested new buildings but it is up the team to accept it or not.

Edited by Genava55
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19 hours ago, Genava55 said:

I use mostly the Delamarre’s dictionary of the Gaulish language. But honestly, I have to made up some words because they are not known or they haven't existed at all. I try to avoid the most possible to build some name from different words but I haven't the choice sometimes. I didn't translate the taverne because the whole idea of a taverne as something characteristic of the Gauls bothers me. I suggested new buildings but it is up the team to accept it or not.

Thank you, that list looks useful! A word for kennel is missing, but otherwise I think your suggestions can be committed; that's for the team (@Itms?) to decide, though.

Out of curiosity, which of those words are attested and which ones were reconstructed? And are they all the same language (Gaulish)? Literal translations would also be nice to have, e.g.:

blacksmith: ὁ χαλκεών (forge, smithy)

Furthermore, could you list your sources, for future reference?

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@Nescio Are we nearing a submittable solution to our three little apples o' strife?

I would like to get to work on the units - we'd need a similar list, and here the research seems to be a lot better, almost only transcription inconsistencies as far as I can see. (It now mostly looks to me like as if a native Greek earlier on, had been advising the forum that his demotic were "correct" ancient Greek, and then proceeded to change all the correct transcriptions into wrong demotic ones?)

I did promise to do a lot of stuff in my original thread, and this is only one of them, so I had better get to work fulfilling the promises. We have some voices need recordin' and some Ptolemies need hellenizin' - if you will excuse my Nubian.

Edited by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

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1 hour ago, Nescio said:

Out of curiosity, which of those words are attested and which ones were reconstructed? And are they all the same language (Gaulish)? Literal translations would also be nice to have, e.g.: 

I edited the previous message. More precisely, the language is the continental p-Celtic mostly based on the Gaulish but with some inclusions of the Brythonic which is thought to be very close at this time (pre-Roman era).

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

Furthermore, could you list your sources, for future reference? 

The whole references for each word and each roots?

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2 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

@Nescio Are we nearing a submittable solution to our three little apples o' strife?

I would like to get to work on the units - we'd need a similar list, and here the research seems to be a lot better, almost only transcription inconsistencies as far as I can see. (It now mostly looks to me like as if a native Greek earlier on, had been advising the forum that his demotic were "correct" ancient Greek, and then proceeded to change all the correct transcriptions into wrong demotic ones?)

I did promise to do a lot of stuff in my original thread, and this is only one of them, so I had better get to work fulfilling the promises. We have some voices need recordin' and some Ptolemies need hellenizin' - if you will excuse my Nubian.

Before anything Greek can be committed, first some clear decisions have to be made about the transliteration, see https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/25202-transliteration-of-ancient-greek-into-english/

But you can start checking and correcting the specific names of Greek units, if you like; see

https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/25284-specific-name-review-units/

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

I edited the previous message. More precisely, the language is the continental p-Celtic mostly based on the Gaulish but with some inclusions of the Brythonic which is thought to be very close at this time (pre-Roman era).

Thank you! Could you check D1757 ?

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

The whole references for each word and each roots? 

Just a list of books, articles, webpages etc. you've used, to provide a starting point if people want to check something or find new words in the future.

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19 hours ago, Nescio said:

Thank you! Could you check D1757 ?

Seems correct to me, only the name missing for binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/template_structure_special_rotarymill.xml

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3 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Seems correct to me, only the name missing for binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/template_structure_special_rotarymill.xml

That's intentional, specific names do not belong in generic parent templates, only in civilization-specific children (in this case structures/brit_rotarymill.xml and structures/gaul_rotarymill.xml, as it should be).

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21 hours ago, Nescio said:

Before anything Greek can be committed, first some clear decisions have to be made about the transliteration, see https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/25202-transliteration-of-ancient-greek-into-english/

But you can start checking and correcting the specific names of Greek units, if you like; see

https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/25284-specific-name-review-units/

Thanks had completely neglected to reply in the first thread (now fixed) and not seen second thread (I am now on it!)

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6 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Any ideas what the Gauls and Britons would call a statue? Thinking of Delenda Est's Cult Statue building, where units praise and gather the Glory resource.

This is a hard one. If I do a backward construction from the Irish "dealbh", it should be something like "deluos".

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