DarkAngelBGE Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 My mother is a dentist and has a dental studio with 3 other people. She brings most of the profit (35%) and now has quit, but she can first leave on Dec 31st 2004.The 3 others know they won't survive and that's why she has a lot of problems at work. She gets harassed et al. Problem: She has no proofs. Her studio assistance are never there when the 4 bosses meet, so she has no chance.Could anyone provide me with a tip as to how I can get my mom through this, until Dec 31st ? See any method besides hidden cameras to get some proove material ?Thank you guys, it means TONS to me. I don't want to see my mother having problems of such a nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonto_Icy_Tripod Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 Ouch that really sucks Let's see, webcams work (thoughyou have to turn the screen off of course)Any kind of recording device ought to do the job really. Video or audio. Best wishes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAngelBGE Posted March 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 Here is some chat with Paul from today to further explain the situation:pmob@msn.com sagt:Sorry to hear of your mothers problems. DarkAngelBGE sagt:yeah it REALLY sucksDarkAngelBGE sagt:I mean I knew it will be hardDarkAngelBGE sagt:but not in March !DarkAngelBGE sagt:she has already a new dental studioDarkAngelBGE sagt:working on it, signing the rent contractDarkAngelBGE sagt:it is near the current oneDarkAngelBGE sagt:and the others want to know, but she doesn't want to tell themDarkAngelBGE sagt:yeah pretty complicated.DarkAngelBGE sagt:now they want to do illegal things with the bank accounts. she has the bank accounts though and doesn't need to give them, but they harass her, so she might do it.DarkAngelBGE sagt:although they have no right to take it.pmob@msn.com sagt:She really needs to take legal advice I thinkDarkAngelBGE sagt:yes we have a lawyerDarkAngelBGE sagt:who is very good, but he cannot do anything about the harassingDarkAngelBGE sagt:the other legal issues look pretty goodDarkAngelBGE sagt:nothing to worry, as for money etc.DarkAngelBGE sagt:but I want her though this harassingpmob@msn.com sagt:Is she contracted to the end of the yearDarkAngelBGE sagt:yesDarkAngelBGE sagt:she quit the contract, butDarkAngelBGE sagt:there is that leaving time limitpmob@msn.com sagt:Well if they make it difficult for her to work then I would have thought she had grounds for leaving early -but I'm just guessingpmob@msn.com sagt:Perhaps she should keep a not of date and times and the things that they make awkward for her - in case it goes to courtDarkAngelBGE sagt:yeah sorta, but they are not too silly...they prevent thatDarkAngelBGE sagt:it's all more or less "within the guidelines" so farDarkAngelBGE sagt:but it's a pain in the butt though for herpmob@msn.com sagt:I can imagine it isDarkAngelBGE sagt:well if you'd like to contribute to this thread, Paul, then please do. pmob@msn.com sagt:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkT Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 My sympathies to your mother, Tim.When does this happen? Meetings and so forth? (not that I want to pry, of course). If it is mainly meetings, you could try and get a member of the assistant staff to attend them (ask them to take minutes, perhaps?)If hidden recording devices are out, have you considered visible ones? Taped logs of meetings, CCTV security... Also, it's not neccessary to actually record anything. If the other people just think they're being recorded, they're probably less likely to say anything untoward. Also you could try investigating what the penalties for leaving before the given date would be (presumably breach of contract?) Well, these I what I can think of immediately. I could try and ask around in the legal department of the university here, if you'd like?On the subject of doing funny things with bank accounts, let me just emphasize I think that this would be a bad thing to do. Whatever you plan to do from this point forward, being involved with anything of that nature is unlikely to be helpful. Also, that does give you another recourse, to whatever your local equivalent of the Inland Revenue or Companies House is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul O'B Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 Hi Tim,Sorry to hear of your mothers problems.The only things I can suggest your mother do (apart form seeking legal advice etc) is to keep a note of all the incidents that happen and write them down and date them.If things get so bad that she has to leave early then at least she will have some back-up information to counter any claim and she may even be able to claim harrassment as well.It does also depend on whats written into the contract and how much notice she should give and how much she has to work.Perhaps she should also consult with a doctor to have it noted that she is suffering from stress from the harrasment which will be more eveidence should the need arise. I would also get as much information as you can from places like "citizens advice" or whatever the equvalent is.Sorry I can't think of anything else and I hope that the matter can be resolved to her satisfaction.Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wijitmaker Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 Yeah Tim, I really don't have any advice I could send you that would apply to Germany's laws. I'm sure they are simliar to the US laws, but not sure. Anway, my advice would be to maintian a tight bond with you lawyer, and perhaps seek a second oppinion from another lawyer. If they are doing illegal activities she could report them to the authorites and I think that would get her out of her contract safely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chichigrande Posted March 3, 2004 Report Share Posted March 3, 2004 My best advice would be to go in one day and suprise her and see what goes on with the other people. Then if they do something wrong you are an eyewitness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAngelBGE Posted March 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Yeah Mark, please ask around, that would be great. Oh and Mark, the other 3 plan on doing that, not my mother. She is a white jacket when it comes to money. Thanks everybody for the sympathies and replies. Please keep them coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Been through this so here is my advice: Record the conversations.......also show up out of the blue and act like you are surprized, if you see something, get a Doc for the stress she is under, check the contract out very closely........Harrassment IS not tolerated by any one. With the harrassment you have a very damaging case against the other 3.........Lawyers know whats best.You be there for your Mom and let her know how much you love her, many little hugs out of the blue mean lots to us, when this is happening.....Hang in there Tim hon, it will be ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rohirwine Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Tim, as said by Cat, harassment is not an acceptable thing.As for recording conversations, the problem is if German law accepts them as legal proof when done without the agreement of the people involved (here in Italy the are not a legal proof). You should clear this, before doing anything that could result in a "double edged" weapon, if you know what i mean......the best thing would be to arrange someone to be present at one of the episodes (the culprits not being aware of) so that there is a witness to be called in a legal action (but i think that someone outside the family would be much more valuable in front of a judge).Do not mind to send me a mail, or a PM, if you need some more advice.Matteo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythos_Ruler Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 So, uh, in Italy it is legal to take testimony from eyewitnesses who may or MAY NOT remember what was said, but illegal to use taped recordings?!?!?! I'm speechless. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klaas Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Note though that it is allowed to make tape recordings, but only if the people who are recorded allow it (which is of course unlickely) or if a judge (or the official person responsable for the investigation) allows it.The German law could be different though, but I wouldn't follow this advice unless you consulted a lawyer first Tim. If tape recordings aren't allowed you could end up being prosecuted yourself.My brother also had something similar with his ex-wife's family. He was both physically and financially harassed by them. We brought this for court though without a lawyer (my dad defended him), because that would have been too expensive. Sorry to say this but I wouldn't really bet on winning such a case, in most cases you only get half of the things you want.The best thing you could do is contacting the official instances about it and have a lawyer advise you if it's impossible to talk sense into those three people. This could stop them harassing her, but if not there isn't really much you can do about it if they don't do anything illegal. Another problem, not sure if it applies to Germany, is that a case in court can take a lot of time. So if the goal is to cancel the contract you could end up with a court case taking longer than the length of the contract.So my conclusion:Let a lawyer advise you and don't do too much on yourself if you don't know if it's legally allowed or not. The best thing you can do is support your mother and be a good son to her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rohirwine Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 So, uh, in Italy it is legal to take testimony from eyewitnesses who may or MAY NOT remember what was said, but illegal to use taped recordings?!?!?! I'm speechless. LOL It is not illegal, but they are not counted as legal proofs.There is a privacy issue here, that was introduced some years ago, that requests an approval from people being recorded. But i dunno if this applies also to crimes or illegal things (as harassment prolly is).Anyway, taped recordings may be easily manipulated (and it happened in clamorous cases, see the Ustica Airplane Disaster), and it may be quite difficult to prove this, and above all to restore lost information. Moreover, even if it's true that people may not remember exactly what was said, they easily remember the sense and tone of facts...So, no recording is a legal proof. This means that it is not accepted when it is the only way to prove something, but it may be accepted if there are other clues...But i'm no lawyer, so things can be different from what i've said... ...and we're getting OT without helping much Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeZar Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Yes say hello and gl to your mpther from me Well, an audio record where they tell everything would do it i think! And on papers ? But no doubt, i`d use cameras gl anyway edit: I`d say we all flight down to Germany, kicks the dentists a***s and tell them to leave Timbos mother alone NO ONE messes with our Timbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rohirwine Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 edit: I`d say we all flight down to Germany, kicks the dentists a***s and tell them to leave Timbos mother alone NO ONE messes with our Timbo lol, htis sounds much like a mafia action... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeOptimist Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 LOL, that'd be great for 10 or 20 WFG'ers to show up Seriously though, try to comfort your Mom as best you can, and keep in touch with that lawyer. I like the suggestion about someone else keeping "meeting minutes" for extra proof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Op Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Don't really know how to help you Tim, to be honest. I'll just say Good Luck to you and your Mother and to try to find as much help as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Cat's not in WFG, BUT tim is very dear to me and I can fight to lol......so Timbo is ALL of ours When I said to record it, I DID say make sure it is Legal, I also said, get her under a Doctors supervision for the Stress she is under due to this........His testimony could blow them out of the water, I should know!Most of all though Tim just be there for her and as Rod said, be a good son to her. If you need me, just whistle hon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAngelBGE Posted March 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Thanks guys. Well audio recording is like in Italy all illegal without written permission by a lawyer. I will just go downstairs to see what my mom has to tell me from this day and will report it here. @ZeZar: Yeah, that would be great showing up there with 20-30 of you guys. @Debbie: Great reply, thanks a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 @Tim yw honey.Well audio recording is like in Italy all illegal without written permission by a lawyer.Then get his permission, but Most of all.............Get your Mom to see a Doctor, their testimony holds up In court hon, not just one for depression, but also a pshychiatrist, why he would help her get through this without tons of stress! This will hold up honey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAngelBGE Posted March 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Well dunno...that will mean even more money that we'll need to pay. The new dental studio will cost a lot, our lawyers (2) and all that.Cannot take on much more now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
last samurai Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 sorry to hear about your mom. the only thing i can think of is to get the cops involved, but that will be a lot of hassel. in the end i hope you guys get things worked out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rohirwine Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 Tim, hold on.I hope that you got some more clues about how resolving your problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paal_101 Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 Anybody got a virus quaraintined on their computer that we could e-mail them? LOL Sorry to hear how lousy things are Tim All I can say is you and your mom hang tight and stick together on this. I'm no lawyer and I don't know anything about the law, but there has to be some way to report harassment legally. BTW, I'd be happy to show up with my karate club Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeOptimist Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 BTW, I'd be happy to show up with my karate club Along with ZeZar and his "WFG Mafia" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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