Civ: Germans (Cimbri, Suebians, Goths)

[Genava55]

Why the ÆGISHJÁLMR for the emblem? 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helm_of_Awe

[real_tabasco_sauce]

maybe an alternative could be to take inspiration from this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundestrup_cauldron

[real_tabasco_sauce]

8 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

At the gameplay level it lacks some "spice" something that gives a cool differentiating element to combat.

Between the 2 unique units, clubmen, p2 ram, and wagons/wagon encampment and the two unique technologies, I think its very differentiated. IMO, Its as much differentiated as the recent civ differentiation efforts @borg- and I put together.

[Lion.Kanzen]

42 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Between the 2 unique units, clubmen, p2 ram, and wagons/wagon encampment and the two unique technologies, I think its very differentiated. IMO, Its as much differentiated as the recent civ differentiation efforts @borg- and I put together.

It's something small that's missing.

That doesn't mean it's not ready to be a 1.0 version.

It could already be included in that state.

The emblem doesn't seem correct to me, I and @Genava55's help had made 2 versions.

But one might think that it is intended for the Suebians.

[Genava55]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

maybe an alternative could be to take inspiration from this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundestrup_cauldron

This is one of the most famous Celtic iconography. You can but it was probably an imported booty or gift.

[Ultimate Aurelian]

On 11/10/2024 at 2:20 PM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Of these, sources only describe teutobod. Apparently, he was foreboding and athletic figure. Other than that, as far as I'm aware, basically nothing is known about these historical figures. I think creative liberties are fine here, like the use of some captured roman armor.

Plutarch gives the following description of Cimbrian warriors

Quote

 The infantry of the Cimbri marched quietly out of their fortifications, having their flanks equal to their front; every side of the army taking up thirty furlongs. Their horse, that were in number fifteen thousand, made a very splendid appearance. They wore helmets, made to resemble the head and jaws of wild beasts, and other strange shapes, and heightening these with plumes of feathers, they made themselves appear taller than they were. They had breastplates of iron and white glittering shields; and for their offensive arms every one had two darts, and when they came hand to hand, they used large and heavy swords.

It seems they were using Celtic equipment; the helmets are probably Celtic helmets, decorated with animal figurines.

Or maybe helmets covered in fur (like this Roman helmet modified by Batavians):

 

 

There is also the theory that the wooden helmets found in Denmark were wood copies of Negau helmets (In which case they might have adopted the original bronze model from contact with other peoples, but this is speculation).

Edited October 24 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Genava55]

11 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

@Genava55

Any ideas?

The most important source for the Cimbri is Plutarch:

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Marius*.html

There is also a shorter description in Strabo:

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7B*.html

Several informations I got from those:

1. The Ambrones were marching in formation and were hitting their shield with their weapons in rhythm to give the pace.
2. The Ambrones women fought with axe and sword against the cowards and the Romans when the defeat was certain and the Romans reaching their camp.
3. The remaining Ambrones scared the Romans during the night by screaming like animals.
4. The Cimbri successfully destroyed the bridge built by the Romans by throwing trees and rocks in the river upstream.
5. The Cimbri captured the camp of Catulus and let the Romans live. They swore to spare them on their sacred bronze bull.
6. Boiorix, king of the Cimbri, fought on horseback (he was leading a small detachment of cavalry).
7. The infantry of the Cimbri fought in order, in a dense and deep formation. This is very similar to other people (Gauls, Greeks, Iberians etc.).
8. The cavalry of the Cimbri was equipped with decorated helmets, body armors, white shields, javelins and long swords.
9. The first ranks of the infantry was attached with iron chains to maintain more order and cohesiveness.
10. When the Cimbri fled, their women once again fought against the fleeing men of their own kind.
11. The gift the Cimbri offered much after the famous events to the emperor Augustus, was a kettle. The most sacred kettle said Strabo.
12. Strabo said the Cimbri were a piratical and wandering folk.
13. Strabo said priestess followed the Cimbri during their wandering and sacrificed war prisoners in huge cauldrons to collect their blood. To perform a prophecy. They also played drums during battle, on wagons.

 

Edited October 24 by Genava55

[Genava55]

Celtic bronze cauldron found at Braa south of Horsens. It is decorated with bull motifs. It is more than a meter in diameter. Only the upper part of the cauldron is preserved, the rest has been reconstructed to show shape and size. Its capacity is estimated at 600 liters. Photo Danmarks Oldtid by Johannes Brøndsted.

Remains of an almost vanished Celtic bronze kettle from Sophienborg Mose in North Sjælland. From Danmarks Oldtid by Johannes Brøndsted.

Animal motif from Celtic bronze cauldron found in Illemosen near Rynkeby near Kerteminde on Funen. Photo Danmarks Oldtid by Johannes Brøndsted.

Facial motif from a Celtic bronze cauldron found at Rynkeby on Funen. Photo Danmarks Oldtid by Johannes Brøndsted

A finely decorated Celtic bronze bucket or kettle has been found at Kjeldby on Møn. Photo Danmarks Oldtid by Johannes Brøndsted.

Typical Celtic detail from a Dejbjerg wagon. Photo Nationalmuseet, John Lee Wikipedia.

A Dejbjerg wagon on display at the National Museum. The Dejbjerg wagons are two wooden wagons with ornamented bronze fittings from the Iron Age, which were found in 1881 and 1883 during peat digging in Dejbjerg Præstegårdsmose near Ringkøbing. The iron for the wagon bodies is from mountain ore from Central Europe and they were probably made by Celtic craftsmen. The rim bands have been repaired in Denmark with iron from Danish bog ore. Photo Simon Burchell Wikipedia.

 

Edited October 24 by Genava55

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I kind of like the idea of using one of these faces as the emblem.

9 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone thoughts?

maybe its a bit creepy, but personally I'm fine with creepy.

Edited October 24 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Lion.Kanzen]

8 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I kind of like the idea of using one of these faces as the emblem.

@wowgetoffyourcellphone thoughts?

maybe its a bit creepy, but personally I'm fine with creepy.

It doesn't look so creepy.

[Lion.Kanzen]

33 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

The most important source for the Cimbri is Plutarch:

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Marius*.html

https://www.imperivm.org/vidas-paralelas-gayo-mario-por-plutarco/

Lives Marius by Plutarch.

Spanish version.

It's easier for me to read it in my native language.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

27 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

• The Ambrones were marching in formation and were hitting their shield with their weapons in rhythm to give the pace.
• The Ambrones women fought with axe and sword against the cowards and the Romans when the defeat was certain and the Romans reaching their camp.
• The remaining Ambrones scared the Romans during the night by screaming like animals.
• The Cimbri successfully destroyed the bridge built by the Romans by throwing trees and rocks in the river upstream.
• The Cimbri captured the camp of Catulus and let the Romans live. They swore to spare them on their sacred bronze bull.
• Boiorix, king of the Cimbri, fought on horseback (he was leading a small detachment of cavalry).
• The infantry of the Cimbri fought in order, in a dense and deep formation. This is very similar to other people (Gauls, Greeks, Iberians etc.).
• The cavalry of the Cimbri was equipped with decorated helmets, body armors, white shields, javelins and long swords.
• The first ranks of the infantry was attached with iron chains to maintain more order and cohesiveness.
• When the Cimbri fled, their women once again fought against the fleeing men of their own kind.
• The gift the Cimbri offered much after the famous events to the emperor Augustus, was a kettle. The most sacred kettle said Strabo.
• Strabo said the Cimbri were a piratical and wandering folk.
• Strabo said priestess followed the Cimbri during their wandering and sacrificed war prisoners in huge cauldrons to collect their blood. To perform a prophecy. They also played drums during battle, on wagons.

Yes these are mostly in line with what I found and what @wowgetoffyourcellphone and I based gameplay from. There are priestesses (seeresses in the patch). The wagons introduce an element of nomadism which becomes more substantial after researching the unique techs and building wagon encampments.

Its good to know that boiorix fought on horseback.

It would be cool to add some additional simple shields, even solid white ones.

In the civ design, there is also widespread element of raiding and looting (stolen arms team bonus, loot bonus for the hero, wonder is a destroyed army camp)

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I might attempt some hero actor designs. Maybe from those, it will be easier to make some portraits.

[Lion.Kanzen]

39 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

The Ambrones women fought with axe and sword against the cowards and the Romans when the defeat was certain and the Romans reaching their camp.

This interests me.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

16 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

several things I am curious about.

 

The Faction is called Germans.

We decided to call them Germans instead of Cimbri because there are 4 different tribes represented within the faction, some of them just as powerful as the Cimbri, so it made more sense to call them Germans. The Gauls aren't called "Arverni," for example. Anyway, it's not perfect, but that's the basis of the decision. If we add more Germanic factions in the future (like Goths or Suebians), we can alter the name.

 

16 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

The faction emblem.

 

It can be changed. Everything can change based on feedback. 

10 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Why the ÆGISHJÁLMR for the emblem? 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helm_of_Awe

Because it's cool and easy. Open to suggestions.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

52 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

• The first ranks of the infantry was attached with iron chains to maintain more order and cohesiveness.

This could be a cool special tech.

"Iron Fetters"

• Infantry +1 hack armor, but -10% speed.

40 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

I'm with @real_tabasco_sauce, let's make something based on this for the emblem.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

53 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

• When the Cimbri fled, their women once again fought against the fleeing men of their own kind.

Female Citizens could have a weakish Armor aura for soldiers. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

I was thinking...

How many sub-tribes are there in this faction? can we make a technology to get other factions from a parent faction?

How many mercenaries and other units can you field? Each could specialize in a dynamic, something like embassies and Roman reform.

You choose between 2-3 tribes and reform the army, it's like the Seleucid reform.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Why don't we make a topic just about Germanic symbols?

Then we choose for various factions, it can serve as banners, flags, emblems, mini map symbols.

It is not precisely the last German faction that will be made.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

36 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

• When the Cimbri fled, their women once again fought against the fleeing men of their own kind.

Female Citizens could have a weakish Armor aura for soldiers. 

I chose to not get too over-analytical on this part. Since Sparta already has an armor and damage buff to women, and since the women took part in the migrations, I thought it appropriate to simply give them a movement speed civ bonus.

I think this is the time to close off the remaining art tasks, like the emblem discussion and the hero portraits. If we keep adding new ideas to the civ, it will make the development take longer. If we finish the art and polish, we can commit it and then see if new gameplay ideas are appropriate/balanced after some playtesting.

Edited October 24 by real_tabasco_sauce

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Boiorix, Teutobod, and Lugius.

I'd like to experiment with some other armor for lugius, maybe also pants. One issue is the contrast with the champion cavalry. Maybe one color can be reserved for the hero?

@wowgetoffyourcellphone not sure what to do with the champ spearcav. With the different colors, they remind me of power rangers XD.

Edited October 26 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Lion.Kanzen]

On 24/10/2024 at 12:33 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

We decided to call them Germans instead of Cimbri because there are 4 different tribes represented within the faction

Sounds interesting.The problem is that in the long run they will not be the only Germans who have taken such a step with the Celts and Hellenes.

But this is how faction designs begin. They will be divided in the future.

I would like to have a mechanic like AoE III

19 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Boiorix, Teutobod, and Lugius.

I'd like to experiment with some other armor for lugius, maybe also pants. One issue is the contrast with the champion cavalry. Maybe one color can be reserved for the hero?

@wowgetoffyourcellphone not sure what to do with the champ spearcav. With the different colors, they remind me of power rangers XD.

Instead of an imperial Gallic helmet, use a Montefortino helmet but fully decorated and with a long plume.

 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

for lugius and the above issue with colors, I just gave him the viriato armor. I think it looks pretty good.

[Lion.Kanzen]

20 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

for lugius and the above issue with colors, I just gave him the viriato armor. I think it looks pretty good.

A cape would end the problem of player color.

It would be more obvious and noticeable.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Between the shield, the shoulders, and the saddle, I think there’s enough player color. I think capes are a bit overused in heroes and champions, so I figured we could skip a cape for this unit.