Guest Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 6 hours ago, stanislas69 said: As you probably know our lead and only AI Dev went to make a fork of the game Curious as to what exactly is planned for the AI at this point? Surely, you can’t just keep it unchanged forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 4 hours ago, (-_-) said: Curious as to what exactly is planned for the AI at this point? Surely, you can’t just keep it unchanged forever. Well the best thing would be that someone do a knowledge transfer with mimo but I don't know whether he would accept to do that. Else we'd have to wait for someone to come along and learn about the current AI or make another one. We can also dumbly copy paste fork AD AI code each time they release their source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, stanislas69 said: We can also dumbly copy paste fork AD AI code each time they release their source. Well..if you gonna copy-paste better and improved code, why stop there? I am sure that none there would commit anything unless it is an improvement (knowingly) Edited March 12, 2019 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 40 minutes ago, (-_-) said: Well..if you gonna copy-paste better and improved code, why stop there? I am sure that none there would commit anything unless it is an improvement (knowingly) There could be complications. Like some edge case fixed by some random commit we don't know about which isn't a problem without the improved AI. That is only assuming they keep their repository private forever. If we are able to see their commits it will be easier to track changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 Fair enough, but in the meantime, let's say a contributor with AI patches did come along. What then?. Because the way I see it, it is more than likely that WFG would never be able to review/commit such a thing. Which does not seem like a good thing to me any way you slice it. Unless of course, one of the staff decide to take the time to read things in simulation/ai . Fork AD will be bound by the icenses in effect. Anyone can use the code and will have access to the source files. Unfortunately, none of the used licenses mandate releasing version control history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 40 minutes ago, (-_-) said: Fair enough, but in the meantime, let's say a contributor with AI patches did come along. What then?. Because the way I see it, it is more than likely that WFG would never be able to review/commit such a thing. Which does not seem like a good thing to me any way you slice it. Well... I don't have any solution to this. Also it's not really my call to make as I'm not a team programmer. 41 minutes ago, (-_-) said: Fork AD will be bound by the icenses in effect. Anyone can use the code and will have access to the source files. Unfortunately, none of the used licenses mandate releasing version control history. Yeah that was I referring to. I guess time will tell. Maybe something good will come out of this maybe not. One can only hope. Didn't they say first quarter 2019 ? That would be in a month Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 (edited) That first quarter thing was an estimate. I had assumed that the relevant people had already discussed and decided something. If no such discussion had taken place after all this time (a long time since mimo left) when a whole game component is entirely abandoned, well that doesn’t sound very promising. But enough with this, the discussion is getting side tracked. (Remember what happened the last time, I dont like getting my main account banned or something, one might also consider removing these posts) Edited March 12, 2019 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 46 minutes ago, (-_-) said: That first quarter thing was an estimate. Sure. I have no contact with them so I assumed you would infirm or confirm the statement. 46 minutes ago, (-_-) said: I had assumed that the relevant people had already discussed and decided something. If no such discussion had taken place after all this time (a long time since mimo left) when a whole game component is entirely abandoned, well that doesn’t sound very promising. I don't remember any such discussion taking place but I might be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 (edited) Alright. Your (“WFG”) project your choice I guess. But until a decision has been taken, it would be impossible to add a unique new feature, (except a few that won’t break the AI. But if it does not break the AI, is it really a unique new feature?) without breaking it. In any case, not a nice situation to be stuck in. Edited March 12, 2019 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 2 hours ago, (-_-) said: Alright. Your (“WFG”) project your choice I guess. But until a decision has been taken, it would be impossible to add a unique new feature, (except a few that won’t break the AI. But if it does not break the AI, is it really a unique new feature?) without breaking it. In any case, not a nice situation to be stuck in. That's correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 Thanks for the information (I think others also appreciate status updates like this one) and splitting the topic I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 You are welcome. My goal is and I guess will always be making 0 A.D. an enjoyable experience for the players. So I can give back what was given to me when I played videogames. I believe players have the right to know what is going on however sad it might be. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundiata Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 52 minutes ago, stanislas69 said: You are welcome. My goal is and I guess will always be making 0 A.D. an enjoyable experience for the players. So I can give back what was given to me when I played videogames. I believe players have the right to know what is going on however sad it might be. We thank you! Over the years (even before joining the forum) I've noticed 0AD's development go through these cycles of crisis alternated by major development spurts... People will always come and go. It's a great game and an even greater project! I just hope we don't have to wait too long for someone to pick up AI development again. It's already evolved by leaps and bounds over the past few years already, but isn't quite there yet.. Anybody know why exactly @mimo left, and if he'll ever come back? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 18 minutes ago, Sundiata said: Anybody know why exactly @mimo left, and if he'll ever come back? I don't think he will ever come back as Fork AD 9001 will fulfill anything we could offer him. Unless of course Fork AD 9001 becomes the only 0 A D. As of for why he might have left I guess you should ask him directly. I guess parts of the answer lie in the Fork AD thread. 22 minutes ago, Sundiata said: Over the years (even before joining the forum) I've noticed 0AD's development go through these cycles of crisis alternated by major development spurts... People will always come and go. It's a great game and an even greater project! I just hope we don't have to wait too long for someone to pick up AI development again. It's already evolved by leaps and bounds over the past few years already, but isn't quite there yet.. True. However there's been quite a few blows in the past years. I don't think AI will be picked up anytime soon. We never know but the code is gonna be a big leap of faith for anyone agnostic to it. However as I said since mimo is still working on it there are still hopes for improvements. Keeping them in sync though might be harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 (edited) The bigger issue is the fact that someone from WFG staff should be the one picking it up. Else, one can only spam patches to a queue which never moves. This point is further reinforced by the fact that much smaller, generic (not AI specific for example) patches get stuck in the queue. The last time I said that, things didn’t go too well. So let’s just leave it at that. Edited March 12, 2019 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 42 minutes ago, (-_-) said: The bigger issue is the fact that someone from WFG staff should be the one picking it up. Else, one can only spam patches to a queue which never moves. This point is further reinforced by the fact that much smaller, generic (not AI specific for example) patches get stuck in the queue. The last time I said that, things didn’t go too well. So let’s just leave it at that. Actually I agree with you on that. Itms recently launched a new Initiative that's called Housekeeping days, with the goal to help fix that. The first iteration was mostly trac reorganization, but the goal is to keep patches out of the review queue as well. If I remember correctly though the last two things you linked on Phab were patches, not differentials, and I don't see them on my dashboard, and since they are not technically asking to be reviewed that's why they might go unnoticed (Along with all the other reasons) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 Yes, people come and go, which is perfectly fine. But if more people leave than join in the long run, then the project's doomed. And yes, the review backlog is also problematic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 Never meant the two diffs. https://code.wildfiregames.com/D1492 would suffice as an example. 4 lines were added. If one needs more examples, search my profile for everything created after April 2018. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundiata Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Nescio said: Yes, people come and go, which is perfectly fine. But if more people leave than join in the long run, then the project's doomed. OMG, you're so dramatic! I think the most important thing is to: And whatever you think you can do towards improving the development of 0AD yourself, whatever your skill, The more work we do individually (and share it of course), the more other people will feel inspired to do more work themselves, regardless of the department. 0AD has been under development for so long. Even if we need to wait a year for a new AI developer to come along, I'll still be here! And my personal skills will have improved as well... Because one department has ground to a standstill, doesn't mean that every other department does too, nor does it mean that it's a permanent issue. There are so many things that took years to fix... I'm not too worried about the future of the game. Even though I recognize that there is a crisis of sorts, there's always a crisis of sorts... It's the way of the world. The thing is... 0AD has never been more popular, more stable, more fun and more beautiful than it is today! It has blossomed into one of the greatest games in it's genre, and something tells me we're just getting started 2012? 2018! The trajectory suggests greatness. Have faith my brother! 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itms Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 3 hours ago, Sundiata said: We thank you! Over the years (even before joining the forum) I've noticed 0AD's development go through these cycles of crisis alternated by major development spurts... People will always come and go. It's a great game and an even greater project! You are totally correct, and I also thank you for the kind words. We are in a dip in the programming activity, due to a low availability of the programmers. On the other hand, the output of our artists and of the modding community is staggering these days! There are up and downs in all the areas of the development, and that's the reality of the life of the project (or any project, for that matter). I am very likely to prioritize programming over leadership in the upcoming months, because the state of the review queue is indeed now one of my biggest concerns (personally, I'm happy that I have no bigger problems than that to fix right now ). But I can't make miracles, I can only do my best. I usually don't answer this kind of thread because they are nerve-wracking. I am genuinely sorry that our best is not good enough for you. It is very difficult to see you guys angry or disappointed when you make such great contributions! Not being able to allocate time to include your work is heartbreaking. The best thing you can do to help is to be supportive (like Sundiata). It really helps us to read nice messages: motivation is our only fuel. I understand the need to complain and push people into doing things, that is something we do a lot in other situations, but that doesn't work for volunteer work. I don't blame you for complaining, but it doesn't help, and sometimes it goes too far. I am really encouraging you to give us ideas about concrete and realistic things that we could try to do, that is always welcome! (especially with the matter at hand, which is, how to make the project attractive for new AI contributors). But just stating the problems we have or might have is not helping, as we are painfully aware of them already. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itms Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 Wonderful timing for coordinated posts full of positivity @Sundiata 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 10 minutes ago, Sundiata said: OMG, you're so dramatic! Thank you for your dramatic response. To clarify, I didn't intend to complain, nor am I saying 0 A.D. is doomed; what I wrote was “if”. I too have observed this project grow and improve over the years, which is likely to continue for years to come. Personally I don't care how fast or slow development is; it's already a great game and can only get better! 23 minutes ago, Itms said: I am really encouraging you to give us ideas about concrete and realistic things that we could try to do, that is always welcome! I don't know what could – or should – change, but I do hope new people will come and join the project eventually; having two dozen people who do a little is preferable to a situation where one person does so much he's become irreplaceable. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itms Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 That is my hope as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 I just hope what I did before complaining was helpful (It was not that helpful, maybe it was in a little way. Don't know). With the recent re-introduction thread, things might turn around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteTreePaladin Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 You all think it's bad now? Back in my day, we didn't even have an AI, or any multiplayer either. Imagine playing a game like that, then having it rewritten so that all terrain is solid black, and buildings, trees, water, mountains, and pretty much everything just let units walk right through without restriction. Units didn't automatically migrate to fresh resources, they just stopped working. As a bonus, depleted resources didn't disappear, so you had to manually pick each tree to see if the workers would gather from it. I think one reason it seems there's less progress happening today, is that there's less obvious progress to make. We're closer than ever to a completed game. 4 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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