===[TASK]=== Crowd Sourced - Thracians (Faction)

[Lion.Kanzen]

5 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

 

I found I found more things and places.

Priestess

 

Seuthopolis

[Genava55]

5 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

already there:

ps: To avoid the display bug, first open the hidden section, then expand

Edited February 28, 2023 by Genava55

[Lion.Kanzen]

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/research-odrysian-kingdom-thracian-union.263647/page-4

plenty of references.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

I have the impression that their most modest constructions and most of them have tile roofs(same material as bricks) What supports that are wooden beams sticking out of a wall or wood or stucco, with solid stone bases. 

it was more complex than I imagined.

 

I imagined something certainly "barbaric" Celtic style and something Mediterranean Greek.

There's a lot of Greek influence but I'm not sure it's all that very Greek.

I need to investigate more...

[Lion.Kanzen]

he had forgotten other neighbors they had, the Getians and Dacians.

What kind of Celts lived to the east?

(North of the Balkans).

I feel like we only designed Gauls and Britons...

[Lion.Kanzen]

[Lion.Kanzen]

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

 

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

Thracian culture is somewhat removed from the Greek, but not quite.

Same with their homes.

I have not been able to find pre-Hellenistic architecture.

But I have managed to find examples from Thrace and rural Bulgaria.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

Rural architecture from Bulgaria continues is fascinating.

[Genava55]

6 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

What kind of Celts lived to the east?

The Gauls is associated to the culture of La Tène which extent to the Carpathian mountains. In Transylvania, the Celts were established up to 200/180 BC according to the archaeological records. It was probably people from the Taurisci confederacy. There are also the Anartes and Cotini in modern day Slovakia. In modern day Serbia, the Scordisci were the main people established there. In Thrace, the kingdom of Tylis emerged with the invasion of the Galatians and disappear around 200 BC due to the wars with Thracians. Finally there are the Bastarnae and the Britolagi mentioned in Romania and Moldavia. The Britolagi are probably a Celtic people who migrated in Northern Romania. The Bastarnae are probably a Germanic people who migrated from Poland to Moldavia.

What is represented on the illustrations of Radu Oltean are not proper Celts. After 180 BC, there are some interesting warrior burials emerging in the region of the iron gates (north-eastern Bulgaria) and in Transylvania. Those burials are mixing elements from Thracian tradition and from Celtic tradition. Notably the weapons are exclusively Celtic. This people is not very understood. They are known exclusively from those warrior burials. There are several theories about them, either they represent the Minor Scordisci, a branch of the Scordisci mentioned in late sources, the Triballi, or the Dacians. The Romanian historians generally think those people are the birth of the Dacian aristocracy. Radu Oltean represented them as such.

38 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Thracian culture is somewhat removed from the Greek, but not quite.

@wowgetoffyourcellphone would like to have both the Dacians and the Thracians. So I think it would be best to distinguish evidences from the Dacian period from those related to the Thracian period. 

I have put evidences from archaeological sites with proper description. 

Seuthopolis, Sboryanovo, Sinemorets, Pistiros and Kozi Gramadi should be enough. Did you investigate those?

[Genava55]

30 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Rural architecture from Bulgaria

Something is bothering me with this method. Both Bulgaria and Romania speak a different language, unrelated to the Dacians and Thracians. I don't see why they should have conserved the architecture of their distant and unrelated ancestors. This is like using rural architecture of England and France for the Britons and Gauls.

[Lion.Kanzen]

9 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Taurisci confederacy.

this sounds interesting.

 

9 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Seuthopolis

This,but they did not have the basic buildings, the texts say that only the palaces and civic buildings.

 

The architecture of the houses are the ones that serve as an example and starter for the corral, the farmstead, the warehouse and even the barracks.

 

0 A.D is a game that in many cases is the first to show in a 3D way buildings of many civilizations, including Mauryas (all representations are illustrations).

 

I want to get as close as possible to the architectural tradition of the place.

[Genava55]

7 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

This,but they did not have the basic buildings, the texts say that only the palaces and civic buildings.

Seuthopolis is not occupied by regular households, but it had houses:

"Seuthopolis was strongly fortified. It included a basileia, erected as an essential part of the general Hippodamos city-planning, an agora, some 50 luxury houses, large streets and a temple of the Great Gods of Samothrace incorporated in the basileia. A temple of Dionysos with altar nearby found place by the agora. Of particular interest is the decision a second copy of the royal decree to be exposed by the altar of Dionysos on the agora thus stressing the importance of the city square as second center of social and political life after the King’s palace and suggesting some economic aspects of the worship of Dionysos as „agoreian” deity’as well. The suburbs north of the city were occupied by tiled farmhouses „ of economic and social importance”. The similarities between Seuthopolis and the Greek Hellenistic poleis are evident although the Greek city planning was adapted to the needs of an aristocratic rather than a democratic society. Anyway, in some extend a Greek type of economy and especially trade activities would be not surprising in similar urban background."

- Trade and Monetary Economy in the Early Hellenistic City of Seuthopolis in Thrace. By Kamen Dimitrov

 

Sboryanovo had also dwellings:

"The fortified area had been densely occupied by dwellings, workshops, and other buildings."

- THE GETIC CAPITAL AT SBORYANOVO (NORTH-EASTERN BULGARIA). By Totko Stoyanov

 

The dwellings inside the fortifications were quite similar to those of Greeks, using plastered walls:

"In the eastern half of the building were unearthed the foundations of a large domestic oven (Fig. І. 3. 39, 43) belonging to a type, characteristic for the city. In some of the dwellings discovered in the central excavation, the oven is in the same room, where the eschara is located, in others it can be even outside of the building. It is possible the building, due to its considerable dimensions, to have had two rooms. The walls are heavily deformed by the earthquake, and across the clay floor have fallen bits of wall plaster and the ceiling, rammed into the ground to various degrees by the wall stones, and mixed with fragments of vessels, which probably were not only left on the floor of the room but also on shelves (cupboards?) on the walls."

- THE THRACIAN CITY. CITY PLANNING FORTIFICATION SYSTEM ARCHITECTURE. Sboryanovo. VOLUME III, 2015.

 

 

[Genava55]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

I want to get as close as possible to the architectural tradition of the place.

Architectural tradition of the Thracians yes, that's a good idea.

Architectural tradition of the Bulgarians, no thanks.

[Lion.Kanzen]

7 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Seuthopolis was strongly fortified. It included a basileia, erected as an essential part of the general Hippodamos city-planning, an agora, some 50 luxury houses, large streets and a temple of the Great Gods of Samothrace incorporated in the basileia. A temple of Dionysos with altar nearby found place by the agora. Of particular interest is the decision a second copy of the royal decree to be exposed by the altar of Dionysos on the agora thus stressing the importance of the city square as second center of social and political life after the King’s palace and suggesting some economic aspects of the worship of Dionysos as „agoreian” deity’as well. The suburbs north of the city were occupied by tiled farmhouses „ of economic and social importance”.

I had thought of a Basileia Agora.

But simpler. Not so Hellenistic something more rustic.

11 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Architectural tradition of the Thracians yes, that's a good idea.

Architectural tradition of the Bulgarians, no thanks.

What would be the noticeable difference?

[Genava55]

3 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

What would be the noticeable difference?

The accuracy.

The issues are not the houses, the farms and other rural buildings of the Thracians. Even among Greeks there were houses made from wattle-and-daub or wood. There are always good options of simple buildings among any civilizations. So in the end, there were some "barbaric" Thracian houses and some Hellenistic Thracian houses. Both kinds existed.

The issue however are the temples and the fortresses. I understand that you want wooden temples, but do you have any evidences of wooden temples among Thracians? Currently, the evidences are about Hellenistic inspired temples made out of stones.

You want to do a proper and fair depiction of the Thracians? Then stick to the evidences. Currently all our factions have notable buildings based on known evidences. If you know about the Achaemenid empire, then by playing the Persians in 0AD you can easily recognize a few buildings. If you know about the Roman period, then by playing the Romans, you will recognize a few buildings quickly. etc. etc.

A fair depiction of the Thracians should be based on real evidences. Someone knowing the history of the Thracians should be able to recognize some buildings by playing the Thracians.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Suethopolis seemed more akin to an administrative center such as Persepolis than an actual city or town. Fair? 

[Genava55]

12 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Suethopolis seemed more akin to an administrative center such as Persepolis than an actual city or town. Fair? 

Seuthopolis was city because it matches the definition of a city. In the same way, Persepolis was a city.

In the case of Seuthopolis, it seems Seuthes III really lived there.

But indeed, like Persepolis, Seuthopolis acted like the seat of the power. Probably that the closest clients and parents of Seuthes III lived in Seuthopolis or around the city.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

7 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Seuthopolis was city because it matches the definition of a city. In the same way, Persepolis was a city.

Oh my

[Lion.Kanzen]

42 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

The issue however are the temples and the fortresses. I understand that you want wooden temples, but do you have any evidences of wooden temples among Thracians? Currently, the evidences are about Hellenistic inspired temples made out of stones.

This part was my initial idea, but any Greek expressions that are coupled and that have not been seen.

 

I want it to be Greek without anyone thinking that there are already a lot of Greek factions.

[Genava55]

8 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Oh my

You don't like it but it is necessary. People from ancient times, both Greeks and Persians viewed Persepolis as a city. And from a modern perspective, it is indeed a city. I know people confuse this a lot, but a city isn't just about population size.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Genava55

[Lion.Kanzen]

46 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

fair depiction of the Thracians should be based on real evidences. Someone knowing the history of the Thracians should be able to recognize some buildings by playing the Thracians

The problem is that I only see structural traces I don't see no concern for recreating their archeological sites.

There is no history of the architecture of that area, I will keep looking, but even I had problems with the Mauryas looking for that palace.

I know it is difficult for many reasons to see what the buildings looked like.

[Duileoga]

16 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Something is bothering me with this method. Both Bulgaria and Romania speak a different language, unrelated to the Dacians and Thracians. I don't see why they should have conserved the architecture of their distant and unrelated ancestors. This is like using rural architecture of England and France for the Britons and Gauls.

Buenos días o tardes ; 

@Genava55 @wowgetoffyourcellphone @Lopess @Lion.Kanzen

-Estuve haciendo una ligera investigación y encontré suficientes diferencias entre Dacios y Tracios , la mayor diferencia es que los Tracios fueron más influenciados por la cultura helenística y los Dacios por los pueblos celtas.

 

-Podría intentar hacer una arquitectura tracia con dos sub-ramas ligeramente diferenciadas ;

Edificios tracios con más elementos griegos;

(columnas , muros de piedra...)

1. Centro cívico
2. Templo
3. Maravilla
4. Fortaleza
5. torre defensiva( torre grande)

 

Edificios tracios con elementos rurales ;

( paredes de madera , suelos de tierra...)

1. Casas 
2. almacén 
3. corral
4. granero
5. torre centinela (torre pequeña)

 

¿Ustedes que opinan?

¿Tienen ideas para los edificios culturales posibles?

 

 

 

Disculpen las molestias*

[Genava55]

In my opinion, a building that is a must-have is one of those royal tombs.

Let's imagine we will have one of those tombs:

Spoiler

What kind of design for the other buildings could work with?

----------------------

Now, do we want something inspired from the sanctuary of Tatul?

Spoiler

If yes, same question than for the royal tomb: what kind of design for the other buildings could work with?