New counter system

[Alekusu]

The ranged units have a great advantage in the field, I see players using only ranged units for the entire match. I do it, I know how it works, but would like to see more balanced matches between melee and ranged units. I see more numbers than strategy often.

I disagree with that, melee cavs are awesome for harrassing and alows different strategies than just making ranged units.

[Peregriino]

I disagree with that, melee cavs are awesome for harrassing and alows different strategies than just making ranged units.

Just swordmen cav. The spearmen cav. are too slow rate attack to do anything.

Read the Panando's coments: http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19421

Edited December 24, 2014 by Peregriino

[Alekusu]

Ah ok, it's true, I only use the sword cav.

[LordIgorIIIofKiev]

meh hard counters are stupid, because by putting hard counters you are saying that this unit will kill this other unit in every single occasion,

let's say that that it is archer vs spear cav

if archer can see the cav coming then the archer will kill the cav in almost every situation

and if the archer doesnt see it coming from further away then the cav would win every single time

so by putting a hard counter your saying that the spear cav wins every time which is not true in wins

depending on which situation it is in and this is what i like about no hard counter were it actually come down to the situation and so on which makes it 100 times more interesting

but i do think a bit of balancing to the armor of different units would be useful and shields

SHIELDS would completely solve

the ranged vs melee and archers vs skirms problems

if archers flank they win if no flank then the spears can get close

and what i mean by shields is that if the unit that carries the shield get attack from the front which is were the shield is when it is not in combat,

then if it has a big shield lets say there is a 70 % chance that is does not take any damage

and for example skirms they have small shields so maybe a 30% chance they dont take damage from the front

archers = no shields but longer range as scythe has done in the balance branch

in my eyes this solves most balancing issues

Edited January 10, 2015 by LordIgorIIIofKiev

[jurgenjuggernaut]

Shield upgradeable thing in the forge that give more health or armor vs ranged damage.

[jurgenjuggernaut]

Here's what I had in my mind (for a proposed hard counter, anyway)

Melee Unit

Swordsman > Spearman > Cavalry > Swordsman

Ranged Unit

Ranged Unit does not counter anything, and not countered by anything. Has lowish hp.

Slinger : Long Range, Slow Attack, Most Damage, Least Accurate.

Archer: Mid Range, Normal Attack, Low Damage, Most Accurate

Skirmisher: Short Range, Fast Attack, Mid Damage, Normal Accuracy.

Elephant

Ranged Unit > Melee Elephant > Melee unit

Siege Weapon

Siege tower does not counter anything, and not countered by anything.

Any melee unit > Battering ram + Stone thrower > Building

Any melee unit > Bolt shooter > Any non-siege unit

* For the purpose of hard counter, treat siege weapon and naval unit as building.

Like ur idea Would like to add few things

Elephant

Any elephant>beats mele horse and sword infantry (splash damage u know)

Archers and pikemans>beats elephants

(Stampide pasive that gives them splash damage but when near death makes them crazy, attacking anything in their way or around)

Also charriots to have dont know less acuarate shots or less damage but instead have splash damage when charging against units

With this i mean able to use the blades, also able to shot while moving as there are 2 guys in the chariot.

Caballery and pike units(when formed)>Charriots>swordinfrantry and ranged infantry

Caballery to me able to "charge" and have tramble damage (already discussed though)

[LordIgorIIIofKiev]

Shield upgradeable thing in the forge that give more health or armor vs ranged damage.

but its not an actual shield

this is why through history archers were not great vs melee because melee had shields so little of their shots actually hit its not about armor

armor does not provide cover a shield does make sense now?

[jurgenjuggernaut]

u right but thats harder too make, most game rather use statics to counter this, if u manage to maybe make a "pasive" that allows units with shields to evade ranged attacks would be great. when i speak of the forge i meant maybe for some factions to upgrade their shileds from woden shield to bronze and then steel like the upgrade of the macedons elite

[Lion.Kanzen]

but its not an actual shield

this is why through history archers were not great vs melee because melee had shields so little of their shots actually hit its not about armor

armor does not provide cover a shield does make sense now?

sounds some micro management, you means add some kind ability to raise shields? Edited January 10, 2015 by Lion.Kanzen

[LordIgorIIIofKiev]

sounds some micro management, you means add some kind ability to raise shields?

no

just when they are not fighting they have a shield which blocks a percentage of the shots from the front only

which will make it easier to approach ranged without receiving damage and if archers want to make true damage they need to outflank

KEY WORD, only frontal attacks

Edited January 10, 2015 by LordIgorIIIofKiev

[Stan`]

no

just when they are not fighting they have a shield which blocks a percentage of the shots from the front only

which will make it easier to approach ranged without receiving damage and if archers want to make true damage they need to outflank

KEY WORD, only frontal attacks

That implies checking if the unit has a prop shield ^^ also, it makes a difference on wether the shield is big or not ^^

[LordIgorIIIofKiev]

That implies checking if the unit has a prop shield ^^ also, it makes a difference on wether the shield is big or not ^^

yeees skirms have small shields small percentage other units such as spears have bigger

[wolflance]

Archer Jones' schematic.

The 'light' in this schematic implying ranged/skirmishing weapon, while 'heavy' implying melee/shock weapon. So a fully armoured cataphract shooting with his bow is still classified as light cavalry.

The direction of arrow means advantage, or 'counter'. The 'A' means attacking and forcing enemy to engage, while 'D' means defending.

Base off this schematic,

Melee Cavalry > Ranged Infantry > Melee Infantry & Ranged Cavalry

Ranged Anything > Melee Infantry > Melee Cavalry

Ranged Infantry > Ranged Cavalry > Melee Anything

Melee Infantry & Ranged Cavalry > Melee Cavalry > Ranged Infantry

Edited January 11, 2015 by wolflance

[wolflance]

Like ur idea Would like to add few things

Elephant

Any elephant>beats mele horse and sword infantry (splash damage u know)

Archers and pikemans>beats elephants

(Stampide pasive that gives them splash damage but when near death makes them crazy, attacking anything in their way or around)

Also charriots to have dont know less acuarate shots or less damage but instead have splash damage when charging against units

With this i mean able to use the blades, also able to shot while moving as there are 2 guys in the chariot.

Caballery and pike units(when formed)>Charriots>swordinfrantry and ranged infantry

Caballery to me able to "charge" and have tramble damage (already discussed though)

I don't think elephant should be countered by pike though. Elephants beat anything in a straight-up melee fight, period. You could still win by drowning them with numbers though. I think Alexander managed to beat elephants with his pikemen (Battle of Hydaspes), but suffered heavy losses, his phalanx was under the covering fire from his ranged unit too.

Chariots are outdated and terribly bad weapon. For all intent and purpose, they act like ranged cavalry, only slower and dumber. There's nothing a chariot can do that cavalry can't do better. Still good for faction(s) without other ranged cavalry option though.

Scythed chariots should have enormous charge bonus, but in prolonged melee they are dead meat.

Edited January 11, 2015 by wolflance

[jurgenjuggernaut]

I don't think elephant should be countered by pike though. Elephants beat anything in a straight-up melee fight, period. You could still win by drowning them with numbers though. I think Alexander managed to beat elephants with his pikemen (Battle of Hydaspes), but suffered heavy losses, while under the covering fire from his ranged unit.

Chariots are outdated and terribly bad weapon. For all intent and purpose, they act like ranged cavalry, only slower and dumber. There's nothing a chariot can do that cavalry can't do better. Still good for faction(s) without other ranged cavalry option though.

Scythed chariots should have enormous charge bonus, but in prolonged melee they are dead meat.

yeah heavy loses still though, but the actual elephants from the game are too expansive and not really a good choice, they die soon agains pretty anything, also would like to ask why 250 iron cost for them, would suggest 400 food istead.

actually much of the units arent rentable when u harvest tons of food and lumber while iron and stone are harder, would suggest some units cost of iron and stone to be dropped, like slingers yeah its more realistic but common 50 stone one single slinger he is not going to throw the mine.

as for chariots yes, actually persia wasnt as before, after alexander conquest, but many cultures used charriots, britons, romans, greeks, egypcians, babylonians, sythes (dont remember the real name, the most known enemies of egypt), persia.

when I though the suggestion of the chariot wasnt to mele, They go on the way shotting bolts and killing people with blades, what its true its the lack of mobility that a single horse has, that make alexander succes against persians armies. the chariots couldnt go against the phalanx nor use the blades.

[Lion.Kanzen]

no

just when they are not fighting they have a shield which blocks a percentage of the shots from the front only

which will make it easier to approach ranged without receiving damage and if archers want to make true damage they need to outflank

KEY WORD, only frontal attacks

is planned (gameplay feature)give units damage if you attack from back or sides

http://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/GameplayFeatureStatus

---off topic---

Remember guys may be for each feature the games needs a rebalancing. Much people includen specialtizate press or youtubers tend to think have full gameplay almost finish and says things like: "looks finish at alpha stage", Because is very playable and "enjoyable".

[LordIgorIIIofKiev]

is planned (gameplay feature)give units damage if you attack from back or sides

http://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/GameplayFeatureStatus

---off topic---

Remember guys may be for each feature the games needs a rebalancing. Much people includen specialtizate press or youtubers tend to think have full gameplay almost finish and says things like: "looks finish at alpha stage", Because is very playable and "enjoyable".

gd

[Peregriino]

meh hard counters are stupid, because by putting hard counters you are saying that this unit will kill this other unit in every single occasion,

let's say that that it is archer vs spear cav

if archer can see the cav coming then the archer will kill the cav in almost every situation

and if the archer doesnt see it coming from further away then the cav would win every single time

so by putting a hard counter your saying that the spear cav wins every time which is not true in wins

depending on which situation it is in and this is what i like about no hard counter were it actually come down to the situation and so on which makes it 100 times more interesting

but i do think a bit of balancing to the armor of different units would be useful and shields

SHIELDS would completely solve

the ranged vs melee and archers vs skirms problems

if archers flank they win if no flank then the spears can get close

and what i mean by shields is that if the unit that carries the shield get attack from the front which is were the shield is when it is not in combat,

then if it has a big shield lets say there is a 70 % chance that is does not take any damage

and for example skirms they have small shields so maybe a 30% chance they dont take damage from the front

archers = no shields but longer range as scythe has done in the balance branch

in my eyes this solves most balancing issues

The hard and soft counters are differents, but I don't think are diametrically opposed.

I agree with you the soft counter can be more interesting. But in part, in your example the ranged infantary have a good advantage against the spear cav. is very easy make a micro with them you just need aim, but for melee cav it's more dificult. Other thing, it's more interesting you don't know the result (in hard counter, you don't know the result, because you need make more units, you don't just use ranged infantary or cav, you need balance between your units), but know does not matter if I use swordman or spearmen infantary, you just need make a calc cost/benefit. And it's more interesting? I don't think so. In this case, the spearmen cav need a hard counter or need modifications in your status, you rate attack is very slow, 2.25.

[LordIgorIIIofKiev]

The hard and soft counters are differents, but I don't think are diametrically opposed.

I agree with you the soft counter can be more interesting. But in part, in your example the ranged infantary have a good advantage against the spear cav. is very easy make a micro with them you just need aim, but for melee cav it's more dificult. Other thing, it's more interesting you don't know the result (in hard counter, you don't know the result, because you need make more units, you don't just use ranged infantary or cav, you need balance between your units), but know does not matter if I use swordman or spearmen infantary, you just need make a calc cost/benefit. And it's more interesting? I don't think so. In this case, the spearmen cav need a hard counter or need modifications in your status, you rate attack is very slow, 2.25.

they just need more damage, with the velocity they come from

they should do almost 3 times or more pierce then a spear

[Peregriino]

I think the damage is good, if I remember 37 piercing damage, but the ranged units now have piercing damage and the cav. are weak for this. The swordman cav can balance this with your rate attack, but for spearmen cav. this isn't possible.

[Loki1950]

Most of the relative stats for each type of unit has been the object discussion for over a 100 yrs since the beginning of table-top war gaming much simpler than reinventing the wheel look up some on that research then adapt it for 0AD's combat stat system.

Enjoy the Choice