My Suggestions After Testing Alpha 17 SVN (And In General)

[Prodigal Son]

  On 29/09/2014 at 12:01 AM, Lion.Kanzen said:

Only Devs can commit , I suggest you make a patch and upload to trac

Thanks for the info:)

How does this work? Devs review the patches and add them if they are approvable?

(I was thinking commit had an approval phase before being added to the core files).

[Lion.Kanzen]

I'm not sure but is diff extension file. they testing and get some reviews first and then they commit into official SVN.

[Loki1950]

You create the diff file with TortoiseSVN on windows a diff is just a file with your edits that can be applied to the the version in svn there by saving bandwidth

Enjoy the Choice

[Prodigal Son]

Just did added a patch ticket, took a while to figure out but it worked:) Most time spent on searching where to add it while I didn't even had a track account...

Edited September 29, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[auron2401]

  On 28/09/2014 at 1:49 PM, plumo said:

- I don't like the current 'embassies' for carthage: you can build all three buildings which don't fit the general feel of the Carthaginian building set

You can only build 2 at a time though.

[Zeta1127]

It doesn't help matters that there usually isn't much more foraging opportunities beyond what is near to starting locations.

That's a nice idea for Civic Centers and Barracks, but what about the Helot Skirmishers for the Spartans, they are the obvious choice for the main Spartan citizen-soldier dedicated to resource gathering and construction?

I agree about the Carthaginian Embassies, though the current buildings should definitely be kept in their present form for use in scenarios and eventually campaigns. Were the Carthaginian mercenary tech pairs removed, because if they were that seems like a silly idea, since they seem like reasonable trade offs. Auron is right though, a cap of two Embassies was implemented, and I am the reason its two not one, because it would have heavily favored production time over cost reduction.

The Spartan Skirtai Commandos are like that for a reason, since they are already elite troops. The Cleomenian Reforms are an interesting idea to utilized the Spartan Pikemen that aren't normally available. I don't think the Spartan Hoplites would if they were available from the start, because Champions exist for a reason.

As long as the Athenian Marines are still available at the Gymnasium, I am open to alternative ideas for Iphicratean Reforms.

I still say the Carthaginians need garrisoning or a repair aura at the Cothon in order to make it a powerful naval tool.

I am not certain what could be done for the Britons and Gauls.

A ring of like four Dorre (Defense Tower) seems like a reasonable alternative to the walls and would allow the Iberians to do some interesting things with the equivalent of four Houses built.

I am not certain what type of polyreme would work best as an addition to the Macedonians.

I like the Mauryan and Persian suggestions, but don't know what to make of the Ptolemaic suggestions.

The Marian Reforms should be added, but the Auxiliaries must also be a part of it and it shouldn't wreck the Roman economy by making the Auxiliaries citizen-soldiers and the Marian Legionaries champions.

What's wrong with the current Seleucid Reforms for unlocking champions?

Edited September 29, 2014 by Zeta1127

[Prodigal Son]

  On 29/09/2014 at 3:43 AM, Zeta1127 said:

It doesn't help matters that there usually isn't much more foraging opportunities beyond what is near to starting locations.

That holds true but gameplay variety and regional realism need some regions without/with few bushes.

That's a nice idea for Civic Centers and Barracks, but what about the Helot Skirmishers for the Spartans, they are the obvious choice for the main Spartan citizen-soldier dedicated to resource gathering and construction?

Are you talking only about Spartans or my idea to redesign recruitment overall here? Yes helots could be, and historically were the main workers for Sparta.

I agree about the Carthaginian Embassies, though the current buildings should definitely be kept in their present form for use in scenarios and eventually campaigns. Were the Carthaginian mercenary tech pairs removed, because if they were that seems like a silly idea, since they seem like reasonable trade offs. Auron is right though, a cap of two Embassies was implemented, and I am the reason its two not one, because it would have heavily favored production time over cost reduction.

The tech pairs are still in the game. If there's no redesign on mercenary recruitment overall I'm with what plumo said, even if letting them have two (single style) embassies works better than one. The other structures would probably stay as editor units anyway.

The Spartan Skirtai Commandos are like that for a reason, since they are already elite troops. The Cleomenian Reforms are an interesting idea to utilized the Spartan Pikemen that aren't normally available. I don't think the Spartan Hoplites would if they were available from the start, because Champions exist for a reason.

I suggested to make Skiritae Champions or add Crypteia to increase the number of Spartan champions. Those two were elite units, while pikemen were only a reform unit that didn't get to shine much (fought well but lost their first/only major battle against the Macedonians, and most of them were not "true" Spartans - by then there were only some hundreds of them left).

I'm well aware that champions from the start sounds crazy. But it makes for a unique civ and it has worked well the way I suggested it in my warcraft mod.

As long as the Athenian Marines are still available at the Gymnasium, I am open to alternative ideas for Iphicratean Reforms.

They could be, although even marines would use a spear for their main weapon normally. Marine Archers could work as well, instead of making a tiny force of Scythian policemen as a major champion archer unit. On Reforms I'm suggesting to have reforms for every civ.

I still say the Carthaginians need garrisoning or a repair aura at the Cothon in order to make it a powerful naval tool.

Could work.

I am not certain what could be done for the Britons and Gauls.

Same, I'm not that deep into celtic knowledge, especially for Britons.

A ring of like four Dorre (Defense Tower) seems like a reasonable alternative to the walls and would allow the Iberians to do some interesting things with the equivalent of four Houses built.

Could work, but buffing the civ center is a better idea imo. I don't really like randomly preplaced buildings, they reduce the player's layout choice and won't work well in all maps due to different landscape. Plus a more fortified civ center give the feel of the "fortress" they are supposed to start with.

I am not certain what type of polyreme would work best as an addition to the Macedonians.

5ths (or 6ths) would do. Edit, after some research 5ths along with a monstrous "18th" flagship are mentioned for Antigonos Gonatas' fleet. So Penteres I guess.

I like the Mauryan and Persian suggestions, but don't know what to make of the Ptolemaic suggestions.

The Ptolemaic ones, besides the reforms are for reorganization of recruitment/historical flavor. If the machimoi reform looks strange gameplay-wise, see AOK, there are champion (unique) units that are weaker stat-wise than normal units and it works, plus adds flavor.

The Marian Reforms should be added, but the Auxiliaries must also be a part of it and it shouldn't wreck the Roman economy by making the Auxiliaries citizen-soldiers and the Marian Legionaries champions.

Marian legionaries would be professional soldiers, so the best way to depict them would be as champions. Auxiliaries on the other hand would often be levies from subject people. You would also still have velites as workers.

What's wrong with the current Seleucid Reforms for unlocking champions?

They are completely unhistorical linked this way. Plus chariots don't deserve the champion slot imo and companion cavalry screams for it.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[Prodigal Son]

Detailed Faction Proposals:

PTOLEMIES (EGYPTIANS)

CIV CENTER (Core regions such as Alexandria - Only buildable by Heroes)

• Woman
• Macedonian Settler Pikeman
• Thracian Settler Skirmisher*
• Macedonian Settler Cavalry Spearman*

(LEVY) BARRACKS (Subject People Recruits)

• Judean Slinger - tier 1
• Nabataean Camel Archer - tier 2
• Machimos Pikeman Champion (After Reform)

MILITARY SETTLEMENT (Military Settler Colonies)

• Macedonian Settler Pikeman
• Thracian Settler Skirmisher
• Galatian Settler Swordsman
• Macedonian Settler Cavalry Spearman

MERCENARY CAMP (Limited to 1 for all but Carthage)

• Aetolian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Cretan Archer
• Carian Axeman (Sword class)
• Hellenic Thyreophoros (Spearman or Skirmisher)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Royal Guard (Agema) Cavalry
• War Elephant

REFORMS

• Machimoi Reform (Early): Unlocks the slightly weak, but cheap and fast to train Machimos Pikeman Champion.
• Romanization Reform (Late): New Thorakites Sword Champion replaces Macedonian Settler Pikeman and Machimos Thyreophoros (non-Champion) replaces Machimos Pikeman.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Farming (The Nile)
• Naval or Naval/Siege (Great Engineering and Fleets)
• Mercenaries (Focused on them - Related with their agents recruiting from Greece?)
• Forts (Focused on Garrisons)

SELEUCIDS

CIV CENTER (Core regions such as Antioch - Only buildable by Heroes)

• Woman
• Macedonian Settler Pikeman
• Syrian Archer*
• Thessalian Settler Cavalry Spearman*

(LEVY) BARRACKS (Subject People Recruits)

• Syrian Archer - tier 1
• Median Cavalry Skirmisher - tier 2
• Arabian Skirmisher - tier 2
• Scythed Chariot (as one-rank non-champion) - tier 2/3
• Dahae Horse Archer (Could be cut out to reduce troop types and dublicates) - tier 2/3

MILITARY SETTLEMENT (Military Settler Colonies)

• Macedonian Settler Pikeman
• Thracian Settler Rhomphaophoros (Peltast would be a more common but dublicate class)
• Thessalian Settler Cavalry Spearman
• Silver Shield Pikeman Champion
• Thorakites Sword Champion (After Reform)
• Cataphract Champion (After Reform)

MERCENARY CAMP(Limited to 1 for all but Carthage)

• Galatian Cavalry Swordsman (most troops types possible actually)
• Cretan Archer
• Judean Thyreophoros Spearman or Slinger

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Hetairos (Companion Cavalry)
• Armored War Elephant

REFORMS

• Cavalry Reform (Early): Cataphracts Replace Thessalian Horsemen
• Romanization Reform (Late): New Thorakites Sword Champion Available

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Their economy not handicaped in any way, as they controlled wealthy farming and trade regions, but they also faced constant warfare and rebellions could work, along with their focus being a strong all around military civ with many choices.

MACEDONIANS

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Macedonian Pikeman
• Agrianian Skirmisher*
• Macedonian Settler Cavalry Spearman*

BARRACKS (Native and Closely related Subjects/Allies)

• Macedonian Pikeman - tier 1
• Agrianian Skirmisher - tier 1
• Thessalian Cavalry Spearman - tier 2
• Odryssian Cavalry Skirmisher - tier 2

MERCENARY CAMP(Limited to 1 for all but Carthage)

• Rhodian Slinger
• Cretan Archer
• Thracian Rhompaiophoros Swordsman
• Galatians and Greek Thyreophoroi were also very common after 280bc if we lack some class. (After Reform)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Hetairos (Companion Cavalry)
• Hypaspist/Silvershield
• Hetairos Aspidophoros (After Reform) - Resilient cavalry skirmisher.
• Royal Peltast (After Reform) - Could be anything from pikeman/skirmisher/swordsman.
• Kestros Slinger (After Reform) - High attack slinger, or turned into a slinger tech.
• War Elephant (Possible with Import elephants tech or with full metal cost at the mercenary camp)

REFORMS

• Early Antigonid Reform: Hetairos Aspidophoros replaces Hetairos. Royal Peltast replaces Hypaspist. Adds extra mercenary units.
• Late Antigonid Reform: Increases Pikeman hack armor and train speed. Adds Kestros Slinger Champion unit or tech.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Starting having Alexander's army rooster, then envolving into early and late era Antigonid Macedon with reforms.
• Give them Penteres (Heavy Warship). Could be with the early reform if not by default.

*(If my recruitment ideas are rejected)

Edited September 30, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[Lion.Kanzen]

What you think about create mod in order we can test your propasals?

Actually the mod selector can charge easily any change in main game and without change SVN files.

[Prodigal Son]

  On 29/09/2014 at 2:55 PM, Lion.Kanzen said:

What you think about create mod in order we can test your propasals?

Actually the mod selector can charge easily any change in main game and without change SVN files.

That's not a bad idea. Would take a while though especially since I've just started messing with the game files and no clue how many would be willing to test it. I plan to make a mod in the future anyway but that would also have some more fundamental changes included, like the removal of worker-soldiers for example.

I might start with the alpha 17 release as a base and implement these proposed concepts first if I get some people willing to test, then possibly introduce major changes sometime in the future.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[Stan`]

What would you replace human workers with ?

[tau]

About CC buildable by heroes: i think this concept should be reconsidered.

From my a16 experience, virtually noone bothers to train a hero to build a CC. People either don't know about this feature or happy with colonies protected by fortresses (and i suspect the latter is true).

Maybe a CC should be simply available in city phase or not available at all. Or maybe players will be more willing to build a CC if fortresses will become weaker (iirc there were plans to do so).

[Prodigal Son]

  On 29/09/2014 at 3:59 PM, stanislas69 said:

What would you replace human workers with ?

I would not replace the human workers, I would just make it so that soldiers can't build or work (maybe with a few exceptions like the roman army camp/siege walls and successor kings laying down civ center foundations). Male workers would be added in addition to female, or just a generic worker that would spawn as either of them.

This would make economy harassment more viable and allow bigger starting unit price differentiations without breaking balance. The citizen soldier concept is smart and realistic, but it could also be represented just by strength differences between levy and elite/professional warriors.

  On 29/09/2014 at 4:16 PM, tau said:

About CC buildable by heroes: i think this concept should be reconsidered.

From my a16 experience, virtually noone bothers to train a hero to build a CC. People either don't know about this feature or happy with colonies protected by fortresses (and i suspect the latter is true).

Maybe a CC should be simply available in city phase or not available at all. Or maybe players will be more willing to build a CC if fortresses will become weaker (iirc there were plans to do so).

It's more of a flavor than a needed feature, but it's not game-breaking anyway. It could be slightly rebalanced somehow I guess.

Another solution I've thought about is limiting Military Settlements to one per CC (and make CC normally buildable for all civs). Building one would mean the region has settler troops instead of just locals, and represent that the successors had to train locals as well if they wanted vast armies. Techs could increase military settlement number or train speed.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[Zeta1127]

I was commenting on some of plumo's suggestions with my first three comments, Prodigal Son. The second comment was about the suggestion concerning adjustments to what units are available at the Civic Center, so I have concerns about only having melee units at the Civic Center, hence my concerns about the Helot Skirmishers.

I just don't see much of a problem with so much of what is already in the game and already planned, that I am very skeptical about most of your changes and it doesn't help matters that I don't even know that much about some of these civilizations in order to properly evaluate all of these suggestions.

Basically, I like the idea of Marian Reforms and Iphicratean Reforms as you envision them.

In all honesty, the Spartans are one of the most unique civilizations already since they don't have walls.

I don't have a problem with a fortified Civic Center for the Iberians, though that can get tricky for balancing, take the Teutonic Town Center from AoK for example, though I don't think that will be much of a problem with the territory system.

I still say the Persians need the Sparabara formation in order to give them a tactic to have a chance at combating Greek and Roman heavy infantry.

Actually, the Seleucid Reforms are some of the most historically linked mechanics we have, because there is strong evidence the Seleucids were going to Romanize their military, though you may be right about Companion Cavalry being a better choice for a Champion than Scythed Chariots. I believe chariots in general really need their trample damage.

What tech pairs are still available and what techs were added, because that video posted awhile back wasn't particularly helpful? I happen to know how to look at the code, but even as a programmer, I still have a hard time making sense of what is what.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Zeta1127

[Prodigal Son]

  On 29/09/2014 at 4:59 PM, Zeta1127 said:

I was commenting on some of Plumo's suggestions with my first three comments, Prodigal Son. The second comment was about the suggestion concerning adjustments to what units are available at the Civic Center, so I have concerns about only having melee units at the Civic Center, which would technically exclude the Helots even though it is historically accurate for the Spartans to use them as resource gathers.

I didn't take it "personally" just said my opinion as well:). On that second point about helots, you are right, didn't think about it, but there are several workarounds possible. With one being an extra helot (slave-worker) for Spartans trainable at the CC.

I still say the Persians need the Spabara formation in order to give them a tactic to have a chance at combating Greek and Roman heavy infantry.

As of Sparabara infront and archers behind them mixed formation?

Actually, the Seleucid Reforms are some of the most historically linked mechanics we have, because there is strong evidence the Seleucids were going to Romanize their military, though you may be right about Companion Cavalry being a better choice for a Champion than Scythed Chariots. I believe chariots in general really need their trample damage.

That's wrong:

1st Pair: Silvershield Pikemen (That shouldn't be a reform or choice unit, it was one of their core units) & Chariots (We agree on Hetairoi instead of them and yes, trample is needed)

2nd Pair: Cataphracts & Romanized Thorakites (Those two happened several decades appart and were in no way linked. The first had to do with campaigning in the east and the second with defeats by the romans - and it also happened in addition to silver shield pikemen, not instead of them)

What tech pairs are still available and what techs were added, because that video posted awhile back wasn't particularly helpful? I happen to know how to look at the code, but even as a programmer, I still have a hard time making sense of what is what.

I think the only paired techs currently left in the game are those for the walls, the seleucid bonus unit choice and those at the carthaginian embassies.

Nothing majorly new besides redesign of the armory and tower techs and increased tech cost, but many small changes here and there.

[Zeta1127]

Yes, that's what I meant, the Sparabara formation, with the Sparabara in front and Sogdian Archers behind.

That's annoying, I really love tech pairs and the temple techs work fine as tech pairs to me.

[Prodigal Son]

  On 29/09/2014 at 6:37 PM, Zeta1127 said:

Yes, that's what I meant, the Sparabara formation, with the Sparabara in front and Sogdian Archers behind.

That's annoying, I really love tech pairs and the temple techs work fine as tech pairs to me.

Such formations are possible I guess but they would have to wait for a better re-implementation of formations.

Tech pairs would work well on some occasions gameplay-wise. The example with priest techs is one, thought it doesn't make much sense from a realism point of view. Techs that could work well in pairs and are realistic are the wall example (faster to build or stronger if I recall right) and the one I gave earlier, ekdromoi (light hoplites - gives speed) or bronze cuirass (Heavier hoplites - gives armor).

Unrelated things paired like improved woodcutting or handcart don't make sense either way and their removal was a good decision imo.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[Prodigal Son]

Detailed Faction Proposals Part 2:

CARTHAGINIANS

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Libyan Spearman
• Libyan Skirmisher*
• Punic Cavalry Spearman*

BARRACKS (Citizen/Subject People Recruits)

• Libyan Spearman
• Libyan Skirmisher
• Mauritanian Archer
• Punic Cavalry Spearman

MERCENARY CAMP/EMBASSY (Bonused to 2 or more for Carthage)

• Numidian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Iberian Skirmisher
• Gallic Swordsman
• Ligurian Spearman
• Iberian Swordsman
• Celtic Cavalry Swordsman
• Iberian Cavalry Spearman
• Italian Cavalry Spearman
• Italian Swordsman
• Balearic Slinger
• Many of the above could change class or be narrowed down to reduce duplicates

*Ideally each map would be classified to a regional pool, and each faction would be able to train some civ-specific mercenaries (their most common perhaps) and some from the regional pool. Same with successor levy barracks structures.

*Mercenaries could train slightly fasted by default to make up for their high metal cost and add realism.

FORTRESS (Champions)

• War Elephant

TEMPLE

• Sacred band infantry and Cavalry Champions (plus healers ofc)

REFORMS

• Barcid Armies: Increased armor for melee infantry units (rearmed with looted roman kits) and reduced mercenary costs (better handling of alliances and subjects through diplomacy and use of hostages)

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Colonization bonus: Either shared with Athens (cheaper/faster built CC) or their current tech as a default bonus
• Exploration bonus: Increased unit/ship line of sight (maybe for civilian and non-mercenary units only)
• Mass Production: Increased siege weapon train speed
• Give them back their wall bonuses even if lesser and/or a tech increasing tower, fortress, barracks and wall hp. They had massive walls with built-in barracks, stables and elephant stables.
• Buff naval shipyard with repair aura, ability to garrison ships and an attack or some of them. Add naval architects to both docks.

ATHENIANS

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Athenian Hoplite
• Athenian Psilos Slinger* (usually javelinmen, at times archers, but for flavor and avoiding duplicates let's go with slingers)
• Athenian Cavalry Skirmisher*

BARRACKS

• Athenian Hoplite
• Athenian Psilos Slinger
• Athenian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Athenian Cavalry Swordsman (flavor to differentate greeks, I think Spearman is more likely though)

MERCENARY CAMP/EMBASSY (limited to 1 for all but Carthage)

• Thracian Peltast
• Scythian Archer (they were policemen, I think armed with clubs, but flavor again)
• Cretan Archers (possible and more realistic alternative to scythians)
• Rhodian Slingers also possible.

GYMNASION (Now this structure makes some sense for proposed champions, if they are rejected please rename it to garrison and add a new icon)

• Logades Hoplites - Elite hoplite force instead of the generic "city guard", same function. I've read they also trained to use bows, but not sure about the source. Going this way could have Logades Hoplites and Archers (picked force of both as champions) without marines full time on land.
• Marine Archers - Makes more sense than the scythians or some unhistorical marine swordsman. Marines could give an extra bonus when garrisoned in ships.

(NEW) ACADEMY STRUCTURE (For Greeks, Succesors, Romans and Maybe Carthaginians - library or some recently unbuildable greek structures as placeholders)

• Holds some (new) techs that don't fit elsewhere
• Philosopher Champion Healer: New unit that functions as a priest but also has an aura or empowerment skill increasing construction/train time/tech time.

REFORMS

• Iphicratian Reform: Increased movement speed for melee and ranged infantry, possibly at a slight armor trade-off if it proves too strong. Could also replace Hoplites with Iphicratian Hoplites looking similar to the current city guard.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Colonization bonus: Cheaper/faster built CC
• Imperialism/Athenian Empire bonus: Civ Centers, Triremes (or docks) or both provide a small tickle of metal.
• Chorigoi (Sponsors): Dock tech reducing Trireme (metal?) cost.
• Their 2 superfast messenger Triremes, Paralos and Salaminia could be used as some form of fast scout ship with extensive line of sight, but I guess it's not worth the modeling effort for something so minor in gameplay.

SPARTANS

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Helot (Slave worker with farming bonuses and degenerating hitpoints - going gaia and aggressive at low health)
• Spartan Hoplite Champion (limited to one per farm or house - can't gather/build)
• Perioikos Hoplite - if the above two are not implemented
• Perioikos Cavalry Skirmisher*

BARRACKS (Subjects such as perioikoi, helots and skiritae - those were a actually tribe, not spartan commandos, probably being confused with crypteia)

• Helot Skirmisher
• Perioikos Hoplite
• Perioikos Cavalry Skirmisher
• Skiritis Swordsman (or more accurately fast light hoplite)

MERCENARY CAMP/EMBASSY (limited to 1 for all but Carthage)

• Cretan Archers
• Tarantine Cavarly Skirmisher
• Elean Cavalry Spearman
• Hellenic Thyreophoros (Spearman or Skirmisher)
• Rodian or Arcadian Slingers

SYSSITION (Champion Units)

• Spartan Hoplite
• Crypteia (swordsman for variety?) - Special operations and police force, often used to terrorize-murder helots. Could have a helot suppression aura preventing helot revolts if helot workers are used.

REFORMS

• Cleomenian Reform: Unlocks pikemen citizen-soldiers, provides a farming bonus and possibly unlocks some of the mercenaries.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Replace Agis - who seems less interesting with no aura - with Cleomenes III, having an aura buffing pikemen.

*(If my recruitment ideas are rejected)

Edited September 30, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[plumo]

- Maybe edit your original topic to contain all your proposals (it will be a long post, but you can hide things with spoilers, for example: per faction) ?

- It will be too late to include any changes for Alpha 17, but maybe you can try git. (or work together with scythewirler for the balance patch).

[Prodigal Son]

  On 30/09/2014 at 2:04 PM, plumo said:

- Maybe edit your original topic to contain all your proposals (it will be a long post, but you can hide things with spoilers, for example: per faction) ?

- It will be too late to include any changes for Alpha 17, but maybe you can try git. (or work together with scythewirler for the balance patch).

What's the code for spoilers?

I know and had no intention to push all this in the game in the last moment before A17 release. Scythe seems rather busy and possibly not very interested, I'm not blaming him, he has just reorganized everything, it would be strange to throw it all away and much of it is in a good direction anyway.

However, factions now feel like the old Age Of Empires clone ones, with very minor variations (besides the visuals). That might be a good start for balance, but we need to start implementing variety and interesting concepts little by little so they can be tested and finally reach balance while having unique and historical factions. So I'm for changing some minor things if there's some time available, with more coming in for the next alpha.

By the way, with Mythos gone, is there anyone currently in the team with a vision on the historical and uniqueness part of the factions? While I did not completely agree with the way it was, it was still rather good on that aspect compared to now and most (wannabe) historical RTS.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[niektb]

  Reveal hidden contents

is the code

[scythetwirler]

The current state of gameplay is just mostly a simplified, unified game just to test (through an alpha release) whether the civs are balanced at their current state before we start introducing bells and whistles for each faction (rebalancing after civ perks will be much more difficult if the baseline isn't balanced).

[Prodigal Son]

  On 30/09/2014 at 9:35 PM, scythetwirler said:

The current state of gameplay is just mostly a simplified, unified game just to test (through an alpha release) whether the civs are balanced at their current state before we start introducing bells and whistles for each faction (rebalancing after civ perks will be much more difficult if the baseline isn't balanced).

I've got what's behind the core of it and as I said it's a nice start, but I still believe it's too oversimplified this way. Balance tests now will only be about differences in available unit classes and a couple of different techs per civ, without concerning that some classes, techs and attributes would be too unhistorical if added or removed for some factions.

I believe there's a need to consider what uniqueness each civ should have at the same time (even if added little by little in the almost level case we've got now) if we want a historical and varied game with civs that will play more differently than "mine more stone than average with X civ", or "train cavalry spears cause you don't have cavalry swords available".

Edit: Btw, this just made me remember.. Cavalry Swords are a bit strange conceptually. I've yet to come across an ancient cavalry unit with swords as their main weapon. It would be a side-arm to spears, javelins or bows. I guess the class could be removed overall, making balance easier as well, as we have too many troop types.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[Prodigal Son]

Updated OP with hopefully all info and many extras

  Reveal hidden contents

SOME MINOR STUFF:

  Reveal hidden contents

- I'm not going to mention unit tooltips needing changes or updating, they were too many to note or notice all of them.

- Athens (at Gymnasion) and (Sparta at Syssition) have a leftover tech pair of "heroism" (which was removed in general) and "will to fight" (which they also have at the fortress alone). Also Gymnasion doesn't make sense as the structure training the "City Guard" and "Scythian Archers" (which actually were a force of Scythian policemen in ancient Athens). A name like Garrison / Phrourarhio would make more sense.

- Spartan Skirites are classified as Champions in the editor. Also several other (not trainable) factional units have wrong classifications.

SOME STRANGE STAT ISSUES:

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- Citizen melee infantry have 120/130/140 hp plus the phasing hit point bonus bringing them to about 200-ish hp with all ranks and city phase.
- Champion infantry have merely 130 hp unupgradable.
- Something similar is the case with cavalry/ranged units as well.

OTHER:

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- Rename "will to fight" to something better reflecting paying troops to inspire them to fight more fiercely. I'd suggest it should cost only food and metal since the other resources don't make sense as soldier rewards, and certainly not around 12000 resources in total, it's extremely expensive even relatively to it's bonus compared to other techs
- "Iron hero armor" seems a bit expensive for affecting only one unit while also increasing it's cost.
- "Nisean Horses" should be more expensive, looking at other techs.
- Siege unit cost reduction techs are expensive for their purpose, considering siege units aren't spammable. Stone cost seems a bit out of place as well.
- "Sturdy Foundations" should either be cheaper or stronger. Or they could affect forts as well. Towers and Forts could get a population cost (of 1/3), simulating default arrow crews and making you choose between extensive defenses and a bigger mobile army.
- "Xyston" was a cavalry lance. The two cavalry attack techs at the blacksmith, or at least the ranged one need new names and the melee one a spear icon.
- Marian Reforms shouldn't be hard to implement. Just a tech that replaces Hastati, Triarii and Extrardinarii with (existing in editor) Marian Legionaries and possibly adds some also existing auxiliaries. More detail later on.
- Mercenary units shouldn't cost wood. Metal makes more sense. If full metal is too much, let's go with food + metal which makes sense and economy between food and wood is easily manageable anyway, so it won't be a real gameplay change.

- Same with priests and food. At least give them half metal cost, they shouldn't be a spammable unit.

- If we want Carthage to be the ultimate naval faction, let's not handicap them by having naval architects only at/for the military dock.

- Rams could get a little reduced collision size and more hp to survive and pass through troops easier. I don't like them attack troops. They could even get a major Hp buff and a slight attack reduction.

A BALANCING TEMPLATE

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(Stolen from here and adjusted accordingly):

This system allows for easy balance changes and understanding of unit stats and attributes. With it each unit has it's stats adjusted according to it's level (L). Exact modifiers per stat can change, those suggested should be close to current gameplay balance. Say units prove too expensive, you can adjust the resource cost modifier to something lower universally. If kill rates make the game too fast, dps can also be reduced universally.

Pop Cost: 1xL
Resource Cost: 100xL
Train Time: 10xL
Hp: 100xL
Dps: 10xL
Armor: 5xL
Movement: Average
Range: Melee
Skills: N/A

Then each unit can have some of it's stats modified to give it a more specific role. It's easy to keep track on how much and in what fields a unit is changed. I'm not going to mess with armor and attack types to keep it relatively simple for now. For example:

Spearman (level 1)
Pop Cost: 1
Resource Cost: 100
Train Time: 10 sec
Hp: 120 (100 +20% bonus for spearman class)
Dps: 10 (20 attack with a 2 sec cooldown as spear is a big weapon)
Armor: 7 (5 +40% bonus for spearman class)
Movement: Average
Range: Melee (could be slightly larger, and even more for pikemen. Pikemen could also have lower collision to work better in groups, at least until syntagma formation is properly implemented)
Skills: N/A

Then for each faction more specifics could be applied for more historical flavor and varied gameplay:

Sparabara (Persian Spearman) (level 1)
Pop Cost: 1
Resource Cost: 80 (100 -20% as an untrained levy)
Train Time: 8 sec (10 -20% as an untrained levy)
Hp: 120 (100 + 20% bonus)
Dps: 8 (10 -20% as an untrained levy)
Armor: 5 (Removed bonus as it's a light unit compared to most spearmen)
Movement: Average
Range: Melee
Skills: N/A

Now, to a Cavalry unit:
Cavalry Spearman (level 2)
Pop Cost: 2 (Cavalry units were more rare, stronger per unit and there's a need to maintain the mount as well)
Resource Cost: 200
Train Time: 20 sec
Hp: 200
Dps: 24 (20 + 20% - until charge is implemented, since it's an offensive unit it needs an attack boost)
Armor: 10
Movement: Fast (As mounted)
Range: Melee
Skills: N/A

I have ideas on balancing each unit type this way, but will avoid making this part any longer.

*A note here, I think cavalry also need a transported size of 2 (even more for elephants/large siege). The Persian skill in transporting cavalry which is translated in a (silly imo) bonus of training cavalry from ships could then be shifted to persian cavalry units having a trasported size of 1.

*Units with bigger collision size need slightly better stats since they can be attacked by more enemies at the same time.

*Lowering costs and train times like in the Persian Spearman example isn't perfect with the "citizen soldiers as workers" concept since it gives some factions an early game economic bonus, but imo it's a nice flavor and should be balanced on other ways. It partly does with having weaker troops that will die easier by rushes giving stat-boosting ranks to tougher units.

GENERAL SUGGESTIONS AND TECH PROPOSALS:

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- Move all cavalry units (besides the starting scout) to the town phase. That's what all major RTS do for fast units, they have them at tier2+. A village wouldn't have a cavalry force anyway. Fits nicely with my stronger and costlier cavalry proposal as well (see balancing template).

- Civ Centers training only a basic melee unit and women. Exceptions to this are factions with weak infantry and developed archery (Persians, Mauryans), and possibly Spartans with an extra helot unit. (see faction specifics). Most RTS have a single tier1 melee unit, with some throwing in an extra ranged one. I suggest something in between, reflecting the development of ancient warfare as well. In most cases, you'll need a tier1 barracks to add early ranged units to your army, but it will be a choice rather than a need. Hoplites and such units dominated early battlefields and factions lacking heavy infantry will have earlier access to ranged through the CC. Btw ranged should get more fragile, cheap and with a slightly weaker attack. This isn't the modern era.

- An alternative way of handling Civ Centers and Military Settlements (Seleucids, Ptolemies), could be making CC normally buildable by all factions while MC get limited to 1 per CC. This way it can simulate that the region had military settlers, else they can just train native levies from the (levy) barracks. Techs, especially for the Seleucids could increase MC number and build/train time.

- Cavalry Swordsmen are conceptually strange. I've yet to come across an ancient cavalry unit with swords as their main weapon. It would be a side-arm to spears, javelins or bows. I guess the class could be removed overall, making balance easier as well, as we have too many troop types.

- Make chariots one-ranked (to avoid spawning new carts and horses out of thin air), non champion units. In the vast majority of documented battles they took place, they were from useless to destructive for their own army. Other units deserve the champion slots more. Briton ones could be excluded, as flavor, since we anyway lack much information on them and no other unit seems more fitting. Those shouldn't be turned into some strange superunit though, more likely some fast, cheap, weak (for a champion) unit.

- Make Trade Ships able to garrison 20-30 units. 15 is too little for the ship closer to/ment to function as transport.
- Give every faction reform techs. I can provide detailed information on this for all factions besides Celt and Iberian ones (would need some research). More info at faction specific proposals.
- Add back the rank-up techs, but make them per unit-type and place them in the middle line of structure interface bellow each unit. This way you can make some of your units harder drilled by default and keep others better as workers. Makes sense historically as well, like a choice of core army units and simple levy units. It also gives the equivalent of Age Of Empires, medium/heavy/champion style upgrades. Or:
- Paired techs could work fine per unit, like Ekdromoi (Hoplite speed)/Bronze Cuirass (Hoplite armor). I can come up with such for most units if it's desired,
- Naval Prestige: Tech for Hellenistic factions (Macedon, Seleucid, Egypt) related to constructing big warships faster/cheaper/stronger. Macedon could use a top tier ship. It had a very strong navy including huge ships for a while.
- Expert Sailors: Dock tech for Carthage, Athens and Ptolemies increasing ship speed.
- Fanaticism/Ritual Sacrifice/Afterlife: Temple tech slightly increasing all unit attack speed and/or gather rate (like 5%)
- Coinage: Market tech providing a tickle of metal income per ally (could also be shared between researching player and allies)
- Fire Arrows: Tech making arrow firing units/ships/structures more effective vs ships/siege and wooden or all structures)
- Import Elephants: Market tech unlocking War Elephant Champions for some factions (maybe with a limit). Some factions like Macedon, Persia and Rome, especially the former, occasionally used War Elephants.
- Elephant Bells: Fortress/Elephant Stable tech adding a fear aura to elephants (or increasing an existing one. A fear aura should reduce nearby enemy damage or attack speed.
- Composite Bows: Barracks or Blacksmith tech increasing archer, horse archer (and possibly ship/structure) range for Persians, Seleucids, Mauryans (named longbows here) and maybe Ptolemies. Could also work for roman auxiliary archers if they get implemented.
- God choice: Several linked techs at the temple. Choosing a patron god would provide bonuses linked to the culture their worship would develop and their supposed attributes. Like Poseidon (Ships and Cavalry), Vulcan (Weapons/Armor) upgrades, Demeter (Farming), Melquart (Trade) etc. A number from 3 to anything per temple would work and also be a nice base for a mythology mode.

- Map based Auxiliaries/Mercenaries/Satrapal Levies: Ideally each map would be classified to a regional pool, and each faction would be able to train some civ-specific mercenaries (their most common perhaps) and some from the regional pool. Same with successor levy barracks structures. Mercenaries could train slightly fasted by default to make up for their high metal cost and add realism.

CAMPAIGN:

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- Do you remember the old Medieval/Shogun Total War risk-style campaign maps? They were my favorites, as the limited the annoyingly high amount of battles in later TW games and the campaign AI had it easy to handle them, it actually was competitive. They also have increased replayability and easier design over a story-driven campaign. I'm suggesting something like those, instead of/in addition to story-driven. When formations-running-charging-stamina-trample etc are implemented, even battles could work total war style, as of avoiding build & destroy each time you invade a province. Instead, the units you have trained in the turn-based campaign map, will be the ones you'll be able to use in a tactical battle. Overall, with relatively minor extra coding and artistic work, the game could be the most complete experience in the genre, including all of RTS, TBS and RTT.

FACTION SPECIFICS

Trying to make each faction unique through historical attributes. Note that the unit lists I'm mentioning are chosen mostly from a historical perspective, balance and uniqueness for each faction on that field would need lengthy discussions.

ATHENIANS

The Athenians should have bonuses on navy, expansion, infantry mobility, economy and research, with an expand and defend playstyle. Faster built or cheaper Civ Centers will allow quick expansion (simulating colonization or vassalization of other's colonies) with mobile infantry forces and navies to protect them or raid enemy holdings. Later on, Philosopher units can help the colonies flurish enhancing construction, economy and research, to make up for a slightly weak late game military.

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CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Athenian Hoplite
• (Athenian Skirmisher)
• (Athenian Cavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS (native units)

• Athenian Hoplite
• Athenian Skirmisher
• Athenian Slinger
• Athenian Archer
• Athenian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Athenian Cavalry Spearman
• (Iphicratian Hoplite - after reform)

MERCENARY CAMP/EMBASSY (limited to 1)

• Thracian Skirmisher
• (Iphicratian Hoplite - after reform)
• (Thracian Phomphaiophoros)
• (Thracian Cavalry Skirmisher)
• (Scythian Archer)
• (Cretan Archer)
• (Rhodian Slinger)

GYMNASION (Now this structure makes some sense for proposed champions, if they are rejected please rename it to garrison and add a new icon)

• Logades Hoplites - Elite hoplite force instead of the generic "city guard", same function. I've read they also trained to use bows, but not sure about the source. Going this way could have Logades Hoplites and Archers (picked force of both as champions) without marines full time on land.
• Marine Archers - Makes more sense than the scythians or some unhistorical marine swordsman. Marines could give an extra bonus when garrisoned in ships.

(NEW) ACADEMY STRUCTURE (For Greeks, Succesors, Romans and Maybe Carthaginians - library or some recently unbuildable greek structures as placeholders)

• Holds some (new) techs that don't fit elsewhere
• Philosopher Champion Healer: New unit that functions as a priest but also has an aura or empowerment skill increasing construction/train time/tech time.

REFORMS

• Iphicratian Reform: Increased movement speed for melee and ranged infantry, possibly at a slight armor trade-off if it proves too strong. Could also replace Hoplites with Iphicratian Hoplites looking similar to the current city guard.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Colonization/Athenian Empire: Cheaper/faster built CC that provide a small tickle of metal.
• Chorigoi (Sponsors): Dock tech reducing Trireme (metal?) cost.
• Iphicratids: Increases all infantry speed (if reforms aren't implemented) tech and
• Philosophy (or something related): reduced tech research time. Tech or bonus.
• Laurion Mines: Increased metal mining speed with each researched phase. Bonus.
• Shared (Team) bonus: Delian League - faster shipbuilding.

BRITONS

The Britons should be an offensive civ with relatively cheap and weak (in defense) early units and weaker, faster built (wooden) structures. This makes them a viable booming faction as well. More research needed.

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CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Celtic Spearman
• (Celtic Skirmisher)
• (CelticCavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS (native units)

• Celtic Spearman
• Celtic Skirmisher
• Celtic Cavalry Skirmisher
• Celtic Slinger
• Celtic Cavalry Spearman
• (Celtic Archer)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Champion Longswordsman
• Champion Chariot

REFORMS

• Needs research

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Crossbreeding (or other tech): increased wardog attack/hp
• Woad/Body Paint: Temple tech adding a fear aura to melee infantry (slightly decreasing the attack speed or damage of melee enemies in range).
• As with Persians and Mauryans, but to a lesser extend, earlier units are cheaper/weaker, which gives an economic bonus
• Druids bonus/tech: Increased research rate
• Shared (Team) Bonus: Needs research

CARTHAGINIANS

The Carthaginians should have bonuses on naval trade, navy, exploration, expansion, defenses and mercenaries. Locating (with bonused scouting) and securing (with fast built or tough structures) metal deposits, to help them make the most out of their mercenary armies, as well as maintaining naval and trade superiority could be their core direction.

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CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Libyan Spearman
• (Libyan Skirmisher)
• (Punic/Libyan Cavalry Spearman)

BARRACKS (Citizen/Subject People Recruits)

• Libyan Spearman
• Libyan Skirmisher
• (Mauritanian/Punic/Libyan Archer)
• Punic/Libyan Cavalry Spearman

MERCENARY CAMP/EMBASSY (Bonused to 2+ for Carthage)

• Numidian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Balearic Slinger
• Iberian Swordsman
• Iberian Skirmisher
• Gallic Swordsman
• Gallic Cavalry Spearman
• Iberian Cavalry Spearman
• Italian Cavalry Spearman
• Italian Swordsman
• (Numidian Skirmisher)
• (Numidian Archer)
• (Ligurian Spearman)
• (Gallic Spearman)
• (Iberian Spearman)
• (Greek Hoplite)
• (Cretan Archer)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• War Elephant

TEMPLE

• Sacred band infantry and Cavalry Champions (plus healers ofc)

REFORMS

• Barcid Armies: Increased armor for melee infantry units (rearmed with looted roman kits) and reduced mercenary costs (better handling of alliances and subjects through diplomacy and use of hostages)

POSSIBLE TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Colonization bonus: Either shared with Athens (cheaper/faster built CC) or faster built houses/CC/Temples.Works better as a bonus.
• Exploration: Increased unit/ship line of sight (maybe for civilian and non-mercenary units only, or just traders and ships). Works better as a bonus.
• Mass Production: Increased siege weapon train speed. Works better as a tech.
• Triple Walls/Fortified Barracks: Increased Wall, barracks, fortress, tower hp. Bonus or tech(s).
• Buff naval shipyard with repair aura, ability to garrison ships and an attack or some of them. Add naval architects to both docks, they were major shipbuilders from early on and not doing so makes their mid game navy weak.
• (Ability to corral horses/elephants/camels for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
• Shared (Team) bonus: Increased naval trade income

GAULS

The Gauls should be an offensive civ with relatively cheap and weak (in defense) early units and weaker, faster built (wooden) structures. This makes them a viable booming faction as well. Later on they get access to tougher units and upgrades.

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CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Celtic Spearman
• (Celtic Skirmisher)
• (CelticCavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS (native units)

• Celtic Spearman
• Celtic Swordsman
• Celtic Skirmisher
• Celtic Cavalry Skirmisher
• Celtic Slinger
• Celtic Cavalry Spearman
• (Celtic Archer)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Champion Swordsman
• Champion Cavalry Spearman

REFORMS

• "Increased use of Chainmail": Increases armor (especially hack) for melee infantry and cavalry units.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Trimarcisia: Barracks tech increasing cavalry hit point regeneration (or later on stamina regeneration). A special tactic they used involving extra mounts and auxiliary servants for horsemen.
• As with Persians and Mauryans, but to a lesser extend, earlier units are cheaper/weaker, which gives an economic bonus
• Loot bonus: increased resources from destroying buildings, or income from attacking them.
• Mass Migration: increases all foot unit speed
• Druids bonus/tech: Increased research rate
• Shared (Team) Bonus: Foreign Service, decreasing mercenary and champion unit train times. Many Gauls served in foreign armies as mercenaries, settler troops or parts of elite/royal guard units.

IBERIANS

The Iberians are the ultimate turtle civ with several defensive bonuses and also specialize at guerilla warfare. Their units are quite varied but their navy is one of the weakest.

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CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Iberian Swordsman
• (Iberian Skirmisher)
• (Iberian Cavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS (native units)

• Iberian Swordsman
• Iberian Skirmisher
• Iberian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Iberian Spearman
• Iberian Cavalry Spearman
• Balearic Slinger

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Champion Swordsman
• Champion Cavalry Skirmisher

REFORMS

• Needs research

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• I don't like the default wall bonus. It's imbalanced, looks strange and prevents desired city-building unless you start deleting the walls. An extra Civ Center default arrow and increase in Civ Center hp would work as maintaining their anti-rush attribute, and coupled with their stronger towers and forts make a good defensive civ.
• I thought of a way of implementing their ambush attribute. Iberian units could be detectable at a reduced percentage of enemy unit line of sight instead of the full of it. This could also work for selected units of other civs as well with good ambush abilities.
• When building capturing/loyalty is implemented (although I don't really like the concept having experimented with something similar in WC3) Iberian structures could be harder to capture to simulate their fierce resistance to Roman expansionism.
• (Ability to corral horses for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
• Flaming javelins tech
• Shared (Team) Bonus: Javelin armed non-champion units cheaper.

MACEDONIANS

The Macedonians field powerful cavalry, infantry and siege weapons and reliable missile units. A mostly offensive faction at early-mid game, that gets more staying power later on with reforms increasing the survivability of several units.

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CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Macedonian Pikeman
• (Agrianian Skirmisher)
• (Macedonian Cavalry Spearman)

BARRACKS (Native and Closely related Subjects/Allies)

• Macedonian Pikeman
• Agrianian Skirmisher
• Thessalian Cavalry Spearman
• Odryssian Cavalry Skirmisher
• (Sarissophoros Cavalry Spearman)

MERCENARY CAMP(Limited to 1)

• Rhodian Slinger
• Cretan Archer
• Thracian Rhompaiophoros Swordsman
• Thracian Skirmisher
• Galatians Horse/Sword (After Reform)
• Greek Thyreophoroi (After Reform)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Hetairos (Companion Cavalry)
• Hypaspist/Silvershield
• Hetairos Aspidophoros (After Reform) - Resilient cavalry skirmisher.
• Royal Peltast (After Reform) - Could be anything from pikeman/skirmisher/swordsman.
• Kestros Slinger (After Reform) - High attack slinger, or turned into a slinger tech.
• War Elephant (Possible with Import elephants tech or with full metal cost at the mercenary camp)

REFORMS

• Early Antigonid Reform: Hetairos Aspidophoros replaces Hetairos. Royal Peltast replaces Hypaspist. Adds extra mercenary units.
• Late Antigonid Reform: Increases Pikeman hack armor and train speed. Adds Kestros Slinger Champion unit or tech.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Starting having Alexander's army rooster, then envolving into early and late era Antigonid Macedon with reforms.
• Give them Penteres (Heavy Warship). Could be with the early reform if not by default.
• Shared (Team) Bonus: Standardized Currency, Tribute and trade between allies of the metal resource is bonused ~ 15%(their old one, seems very interesting).
• Fetters of Hellas: late game tech increasing fortress hit points. Antigonid Macedonians controlled the most valuable fortified locations in Greece for a long while.
• (Ability to corral horses for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.

MAURYANS

The Mauryans could be an aggressive (rush) civ with weak, cheap and fast trained units, relatively weak and fast built (wooden) structures. This can also allow them to play with a booming playstyle, since cheap citizen-soldiers should give an early economic advantage. Their armies are rather weak with the exceptions of archery units and war elephants.

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CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Worker Elephant
• Indian Spearman
• Indian Archer
• (Indian Cavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS

• Indian Spearman
• Indian Swordsman
• Indian Cavalry Spearman
• Indian Archer
• Indian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Indian Chariot

ELEPHANT STABLES

• Worker Elephant
• Elephant Archer Champion
• Armored Elephant Champion

FORTRESS

• Infantry Swordsman Champion (btw do we need almost identical male and female versions of the same unit? If female warriors were indeed important, perhaps make the archer version trainable instead).

REFORMS

• No clue yet.. did a little read and the only reform I found is related to pacifism.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• If realism is considered and early Mauryan units are weaker, cheaper and faster to train, this gives them by default a slight economic edge, so they need less bonuses compared to other factions.
• Shared (Team) Bonus: Evangelism, reducing temple tech cost/time sounds good as it is.
• (Ability to corral elephants for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.

PERSIANS

The Persians excel at massing weak, cheap infantry units supported by equally cheap but formidable archers. But what really stands out is their cavalry arm, one of the strongest among all civs. Their structures are strong as well, although a little slower to build.

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CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Persian Spearman
• Persian Archer
• (Median Cavalry Skirmisher)

*options are endless, so I'll just go with "Persian" for many units

(LEVY) BARRACKS

• Persian Spearman
• Persian Archer
• Persian Skirmisher
• Cardacas Hoplite (After Reform)

STABLES

• Median Cavalry Skirmisher
• Scythed Chariot - as one-rank non-champion
• Scythian Horse Archer (could also be champion, subject to balance)
• Cappadocian Spear Cavalry
• Hycarnian Axe Cavalry

MERCENARY CAMP (Limited to 1 - After Reforms)

• Greek Mercenary Hoplite
• Greek Mercenary

PALACE (Champions)

• Immortal

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Bactrian Cavalry
• Indian War Elephant - (After reform if no "import elephants" tech is used)

REFORMS

• Late Achaemenid Reform: Unlocks Cardakas Hoplite, Mercenary Camp and possibly War Elephants

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Add Persian architecture as a default bonus, should work better. Weak, faster trained troops, out of strong, slower built structures. As a tech it's a bit discouraging.
• If realism is considered and early Persian units are weaker, cheaper and faster to train, this gives them by default a slight economic edge, so they need less bonuses compared to other factions.
• (Ability to corral horses/camels for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
• Cavalry have a transported size of 1 instead of 2.
• Shared (Team) Bonus: The Royal Road. Increased trader speed.

PTOLEMIES

The Ptolemies should have a well balanced military, with most troop types and better than average mercenaries, but that shouldn't be the core of their strength, somewhat lacking in champion units and military techs. Farming, research, naval and defense bonuses should make them a booming-defensive faction with a variety of secondary options.

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CIV CENTER (Core regions such as Alexandria - Only buildable by Heroes?)

• Woman
• Macedonian Settler Pikeman
• (Thracian Settler Skirmisher)
• (Macedonian Settler Cavalry Spearman)

(LEVY) BARRACKS (Subject People Recruits)

• Judean Slinger
• Nabataean Camel Archer
• Machimos Pikeman Champion (After Reform)

MILITARY SETTLEMENT (Military Settler Colonies)

• Macedonian Settler Pikeman
• Thracian Settler Skirmisher
• Galatian Settler Swordsman
• Macedonian Settler Cavalry Spearman

MERCENARY CAMP (Limited to 1)

• Aetolian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Cretan Archer
• (Galatian Sword/Horse)
• (Thracian Skirm/HorseSkirm/Phomphaophoros)
• (Carian Axeman - Sword class)
• (Libyan Skirmisher)
• Hellenic Thyreophoros Spearman or Skirmisher

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Royal Guard (Agema) Cavalry
• War Elephant
• (Royal Foot Guard - hypaspist-like unit, many possible functions)
• (Machimoi Epilektoi - After Reforms)

REFORMS

• Machimoi Reform (Early): Unlocks the slightly weak, but cheap and fast to train Machimos Pikeman Champion.
• Romanization Reform (Late): New Thorakites Sword Champion replaces Macedonian Settler Pikeman and Machimos Thyreophoros (non-Champion) replaces Machimos Pikeman.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Farming bonus or tech (The Nile)
• Naval or Naval/Siege/structure tech (Great Engineering and Fleets)
• Recruiting Agents/Officers: Faster trained Mercenaries tech
• Garrison damage bonus or tech. They focused a lot on defensive garrisons.
• (Ability to corral elephants/camels for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
• Shared (Team) bonus: Breadbasket of the Mediterranean a slow trickle of food income.

ROMANS

The Romans might have somewhat weak cavalry, but make up for it with easy to mass tough infantry, strong siege weapons/structures and increasingly good technology as the game advances.

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CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Roman Swordsman - (alternative, a hoplite-like rank1 of triarii to simulate early roman army fighting that way)
• (Roman Skirmisher)
• (Roman Cavalry Spearman)

(LEGION) BARRACKS

• Roman Swordsman
• Roman Spearman - (could start at rank2 to simulate he's a veteran)
• Roman Skirmisher
• Roman Cavalry Spearman

AUXILIARY/MERCENARY CAMP (Limited to 1)

• Allied Cavalry Skirmisher
• Extraordinaire Champion
• (Allied legions/Italic units)

The Following are possible post-reform units

• Numidian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Numidian War Elephant
• Gallic/Germanic Horseman
• Balearic Slinger
• Rhodian Slinger
• Cretan Archer
• Syrian Archer

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Consular Bodyguard Champion

REFORMS

• Marian Reforms: Hastati, Triarii, Extraordinarii replaced by (Marian) Legionaries. Some mercenaries/auxiliaries unlocked as well

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Gladius: Tech increasing infantry swordsman attack speed (and maybe slightly reducing damage, but overall increasing dps)
• Logistics: Barracks or Army camp tech increasing infantry training (and batch training) speed. Their major strength, ability to field and replace big numbers of reliable heavy infantry needs to be represented in game.
• The overall focus on infantry, could kick the extraordinarri champions out of the rooster, or downgrade them, leaving romans with no champions (besides the bodyguard cav) before the reforms. This would be balanced by the massability of reliable citizen infantry.
• Imported Construction Technology: Tech slightly increasing ship/siege/structure hit points and damage. Simulating their common practice of copying whatever worked well from their enemies. Makes me think of the need for an academy type structure for some factions to hold such upgrades
• Shared (Team) Bonus: I'm thinking of a reverse thing here, debuffing all enemies instead of buffing allies. Roman allies were just ment to be absorbed by Rome later on anyway. So something like divide and conquer, what would be a nice in game bonus for it? Not that Socii (or citizenship) in the DD (but yet to be added I guess) are bad bonuses)

SELEUCIDS

The Seleucids probably have access to the largest troop variety of all civs, including several elite units and powerful reforms. Their other aspects could stay at average more or less for balance, even though historically they could have many other bonuses and their weaknesses don't translate well in RTS gameplay.

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CIV CENTER (Core regions such as Antioch - Only buildable by Heroes?)

• Woman
• Macedonian Settler Pikeman
• (Neo-Cretan Archer)
• (Thessalian Settler Cavalry Spearman)

(LEVY) BARRACKS (Subject People Recruits)

• Syrian Archer
• Median Cavalry Skirmisher
• Arabian Skirmisher
• Scythed Chariot - as one-rank non-champion
• Dahae Horse Archer
• (Persian Archer, Cyrtian Slinger and goes on and on and on)

MILITARY SETTLEMENT (Military Settler Colonies)

• Macedonian Settler Pikeman
• Thracian Settler Skirmisher
• Neo-Cretan Archer
• Thessalian Settler Cavalry Spearman
• Silver Shield Pikeman Champion
• Thorakites Sword Champion (After Reform)
• Cataphract Champion (After Reform)
• (Thracian Settler Rhomphaophoros)

MERCENARY CAMP (Limited to 1)

• Galatian Swordsman/Horseman
• Cretan Archer
• Tarantine Cavalry Skirmisher
• Judean Thyreophoros Spearman or Slinger
• (Greek Skirmisher)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Hetairos (Companion Cavalry)
• Armored War Elephant

REFORMS

• Cavalry Reform (Early): Cataphracts Replace Thessalian Horsemen
• Romanization Reform (Late): New Thorakites Sword Champion Available

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• "Plenty of Greek Settlers" Bonus: Increases Military Settlement training and bach training time (or construction speed).
• Shared (Team) Bonus: "Fertile Cresent"/"Silk Road"/"Mesopotamia"/"w/e" small boost to farming and land trade. (The old bonus of Syrian Tetrapolis seems too artificial to me).
• (Ability to corral horses/elephants/camels for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.

SPARTANS

The Spartans can be a very unique faction with early available, very limited, super-elite infantry supported by average to poor other units. Late game reforms can provide a reliable, massable unit in Cleomenian Pikemen and improve other troop classes through newly unlocked mercenaries, so that they can stand against other faction's now powerful armies. Helots can be used as a unique worker unit with the best default farming rate (even if slaves are added in general).

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CIV CENTER

• Woman
• (Helot - Slave worker with farming bonuses and degenerating hitpoints - going gaia and aggressive at low health)
• (Spartan Hoplite Champion limited to one per farm or house - can't gather/build)
• (Spartan Hoplite - alternative to the above, a bit tougher, more expensive and longer to train than other early units - possibly can't gather/build)
• (Helot Skirmisher)
• (Perioikos Cavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS (Subjects such as perioikoi, helots and skiritae - those were a actually tribe, not spartan commandos, probably being confused with crypteia)

• Helot Skirmisher
• Perioikos Hoplite
• Perioikos Cavalry Skirmisher
• Skiritis Ekdromos (fast light spearman)

MERCENARY CAMP/EMBASSY (limited to 1)

• Cretan Archers
• Tarantine Cavarly Skirmisher
• (Elean Cavalry Spearman)
• (Arcadian Hoplite)
• (Hellenic Thyreophoros Spearman or Skirmisher)
• (Rodian or Arcadian Slingers)

SYSSITION (Champion Units)

• Spartan Hoplite Champion
• Cleomenian Pikeman - after reform
• (Spartan Royal Guard or Hippeis Champion - if early champion idea is rejected and normal spartan hoplites are used)
• (Crypteia - swordsman for variety? - Special operations and police force, often used to terrorize-murder helots. Could have a helot suppression aura preventing helot revolts if helot workers are used)

REFORMS

• Cleomenian Reform: Unlocks pikemen citizen-soldiers, provides a farming bonus and possibly unlocks some of the mercenaries.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Agoge and Female bonus more or less as they are.
• Tyrtean Paeans: Spartan hoplites move faster. Tech.
• Replace Agis - who seems less interesting with no aura - with Cleomenes III, having an aura buffing pikemen.
• Shared (Team bonus): Peloponessian League - Citizen Infantry Spearmen train faster.

[niektb]

That makes it really more readable!