My Suggestions After Testing Alpha 17 SVN (And In General)

[Prodigal Son]

Let's start by saying that I will not go in detail with the well deserved praise to the team and all contributors for the game's development so far, but rather focus on fixes and proposals, instead of mentioning what I like. After testing Alpha 17 a bit ( a few games on both single and multiplayer, as well as a quite deep examination of changes for all units, techs, civs etc), some fixes come to mind first. Mind that I'm not 100% sure on all of them, that would need extensive multiplayer testing which I haven't done.

SOME MINOR STUFF:

- I'm not going to mention unit tooltips needing changes or updating, they were too many to note or notice all of them.

- Athens (at Gymnasion) and (Sparta at Syssition) have a leftover tech pair of "heroism" (which was removed in general) and "will to fight" (which they also have at the fortress alone). Also Gymnasion doesn't make sense as the structure training the "City Guard" and "Scythian Archers" (which actually were a force of Scythian policemen in ancient Athens). A name like Garrison / Phrourarhio would make more sense.

- Spartan Skirites are classified as Champions in the editor. Also several other (not trainable) factional units have wrong classifications.

SOME STRANGE STAT ISSUES:

- Citizen melee infantry have 120/130/140 hp plus the phasing hit point bonus bringing them to about 200-ish hp with all ranks and city phase.
- Champion infantry have merely 130 hp unupgradable.
- Something similar is the case with cavalry/ranged units as well.

OTHER:

- Rename "will to fight" to something better reflecting paying troops to inspire them to fight more fiercely. I'd suggest it should cost only food and metal since the other resources don't make sense as soldier rewards, and certainly not around 12000 resources in total, it's extremely expensive even relatively to it's bonus compared to other techs
- "Iron hero armor" seems a bit expensive for affecting only one unit while also increasing it's cost.
- "Nisean Horses" should be more expensive, looking at other techs.
- Siege unit cost reduction techs are expensive for their purpose, considering siege units aren't spammable. Stone cost seems a bit out of place as well.
- "Sturdy Foundations" should either be cheaper or stronger. Or they could affect forts as well. Towers and Forts could get a population cost (of 1/3), simulating default arrow crews and making you choose between extensive defenses and a bigger mobile army.
- "Xyston" was a cavalry lance. The two cavalry attack techs at the blacksmith, or at least the ranged one need new names and the melee one a spear icon.
- Marian Reforms shouldn't be hard to implement. Just a tech that replaces Hastati, Triarii and Extrardinarii with (existing in editor) Marian Legionaries and possibly adds some also existing auxiliaries. More detail later on.
- Mercenary units shouldn't cost wood. Metal makes more sense. If full metal is too much, let's go with food + metal which makes sense and economy between food and wood is easily manageable anyway, so it won't be a real gameplay change.

- Same with priests and food. At least give them half metal cost, they shouldn't be a spammable unit.

- If we want Carthage to be the ultimate naval faction, let's not handicap them by having naval architects only at/for the military dock.

- Rams could get a little reduced collision size and more hp to survive and pass through troops easier. I don't like them attack troops. They could even get a major Hp buff and a slight attack reduction.

A BALANCING TEMPLATE

(Stolen from here and adjusted accordingly):

This system allows for easy balance changes and understanding of unit stats and attributes. With it each unit has it's stats adjusted according to it's level (L). Exact modifiers per stat can change, those suggested should be close to current gameplay balance. Say units prove too expensive, you can adjust the resource cost modifier to something lower universally. If kill rates make the game too fast, dps can also be reduced universally.

Pop Cost: 1xL
Resource Cost: 100xL
Train Time: 10xL
Hp: 100xL
Dps: 10xL
Armor: 5xL
Movement: Average
Range: Melee
Skills: N/A

Then each unit can have some of it's stats modified to give it a more specific role. It's easy to keep track on how much and in what fields a unit is changed. I'm not going to mess with armor and attack types to keep it relatively simple for now. For example:

Spearman (level 1)
Pop Cost: 1
Resource Cost: 100
Train Time: 10 sec
Hp: 120 (100 +20% bonus for spearman class)
Dps: 10 (20 attack with a 2 sec cooldown as spear is a big weapon)
Armor: 7 (5 +40% bonus for spearman class)
Movement: Average
Range: Melee (could be slightly larger, and even more for pikemen. Pikemen could also have lower collision to work better in groups, at least until syntagma formation is properly implemented)
Skills: N/A

Then for each faction more specifics could be applied for more historical flavor and varied gameplay:

Sparabara (Persian Spearman) (level 1)
Pop Cost: 1
Resource Cost: 80 (100 -20% as an untrained levy)
Train Time: 8 sec (10 -20% as an untrained levy)
Hp: 120 (100 + 20% bonus)
Dps: 8 (10 -20% as an untrained levy)
Armor: 5 (Removed bonus as it's a light unit compared to most spearmen)
Movement: Average
Range: Melee
Skills: N/A

Now, to a Cavalry unit:
Cavalry Spearman (level 2)
Pop Cost: 2 (Cavalry units were more rare, stronger per unit and there's a need to maintain the mount as well)
Resource Cost: 200
Train Time: 20 sec
Hp: 200
Dps: 24 (20 + 20% - until charge is implemented, since it's an offensive unit it needs an attack boost)
Armor: 10
Movement: Fast (As mounted)
Range: Melee
Skills: N/A

I have ideas on balancing each unit type this way, but will avoid making this part any longer.

*A note here, I think cavalry also need a transported size of 2 (even more for elephants/large siege). The Persian skill in transporting cavalry which is translated in a (silly imo) bonus of training cavalry from ships could then be shifted to persian cavalry units having a trasported size of 1.

*Units with bigger collision size need slightly better stats since they can be attacked by more enemies at the same time.

*Lowering costs and train times like in the Persian Spearman example isn't perfect with the "citizen soldiers as workers" concept since it gives some factions an early game economic bonus, but imo it's a nice flavor and should be balanced on other ways. It partly does with having weaker troops that will die easier by rushes giving stat-boosting ranks to tougher units.

UNIT CLASS ROLES

To better handle differences of ranged and spear weapons if the current combat system is to be maintained, I'd suggest a spear attack type in addition to the existing ones, possibly renaming pierce to missile.

Infantry Spearman

• High defense/Anti-Cavalry
• Low attack speed (big weapons)
• Higher Attack/Lower Collision for Pikemen (to make them work better in groups until formations are in) but also slightly reduced missile defense (massed sarissas to maked up for smaller shields, but not totally). Maybe reduced speed.
• Persian, Mauryan, Gaul and Briton Citizen versions get reduced melee defense (only large shield, no armor), essentially meatshields, with the two celtic ones possibly having average attack and the other two reduced. Maybe increased speed.
• Triarrii bonused or trained at rank 2 as veterans
• Spartans bonused at dps/defense or having a fear aura
• Machimoi weaker but cheaper and faster to train
• Silver shields bonused at attack/defense
• Immortals lower defense but train faster
• Hoplites slightly higher defense

Infantry Swordsman

• The average unit with no big weakness or bonus. Relatively high attack and defense.
• High attack speed. Could be slightly faster moving than spearmen
• Iberian Citizen version could have reduced (missile) armor having smaller shields.

Infantry Skirmisher

• Best dps and defense, lowest range and attack speed among ranged infantry.
• Fast train time.
• Agrianians,Thracians and Iberians bonus dps or speed.

Infantry Archer

• Average dps and attack speed, good range, weak defense. Could have low collision for increased effectiveness in numbers.
• Reduced wood cost (very cheap armament) but increased train time (hard to master weapon).
• Persians, Syrians and Indians longer range.
• Cretans increased defense.

Infantry Slinger

• Lowest dps and defense, highest range and attack speed among ranged infantry.
• Reduced stone cost (very cheap armament) but increased train time (hard to master weapon).
• Rhodians longer range.
• Balearics increased damage.

Cavalry Spearman

• High dps, Low attack speed (big weapons).
• Good defense and speed.
• Companions/Thessalians bonused at dps/speed.
• Bactrians/Cappadocians bonused at defense
• Cataphracts largely bonused at defense but reduced speed.

Cavalry Swordsman

• Could be removed as somewhat unhistorical and for easier balance (swords could be implemented as a side arm for all cavalry, like units in AOE 3), else:
• Better melee defense (melee instead of chargers/lancers)and lower damage compared to Cav Spears, higher attack speed.

Cavalry Skirmisher

• Best dps and defense, lowest range and attack speed among ranged cavalry.
• Thracians (Odrysians) and Iberians increased dps
• Numidians increased speed

Cavalry Archer

• Average dps and attack speed, good range, weak defense.
• Reduced wood cost (very cheap armament) but increased train time (hard to master weapon).
• Increased range over average archer (all eastern units)
• Do camel ones still need their stench aura? - perhaps camel-traders could also be deployed as cavalry debuffers.

Chariots

• Will need trample to balance and get a proper role, better left as more expensive cavalry archers/skirmishers for now

War Elephants

• Differentiate their stats among civs by armor and elephant species.
• Fear aura still missing?
• Seleucid, Indian armored increased dps, hp and defense, reduced speed
• Indian Archer increased hp
• Ptolemaic, Carthaginian, Possible Extra/Mercenary ones at average

GENERAL SUGGESTIONS AND TECH PROPOSALS:

- Move all cavalry units (besides the starting scout) to the town phase. That's what all major RTS do for fast units, they have them at tier2+. A village wouldn't have a cavalry force anyway. Fits nicely with my stronger and costlier cavalry proposal as well (see balancing template).

- Civ Centers training only a basic melee unit and women. Exceptions to this are factions with weak infantry and developed archery (Persians, Mauryans), and possibly Spartans with an extra helot unit. (see faction specifics). Most RTS have a single tier1 melee unit, with some throwing in an extra ranged one. I suggest something in between, reflecting the development of ancient warfare as well. In most cases, you'll need a tier1 barracks to add early ranged units to your army, but it will be a choice rather than a need. Hoplites and such units dominated early battlefields and factions lacking heavy infantry will have earlier access to ranged through the CC. Btw ranged should get more fragile, cheap and with a slightly weaker attack. This isn't the modern era.

- An alternative way of handling Civ Centers and Military Settlements (Seleucids, Ptolemies), could be making CC normally buildable by all factions while MC get limited to 1 per CC. This way it can simulate that the region had military settlers, else they can just train native levies from the (levy) barracks. Techs, especially for the Seleucids could increase MC number and build/train time.

- Cavalry Swordsmen are conceptually strange. I've yet to come across an ancient cavalry unit with swords as their main weapon. It would be a side-arm to spears, javelins or bows. I guess the class could be removed overall, making balance easier as well, as we have too many troop types.

- Make chariots one-ranked (to avoid spawning new carts and horses out of thin air), non champion units. In the vast majority of documented battles they took place, they were from useless to destructive for their own army. Other units deserve the champion slots more. Briton ones could be excluded, as flavor, since we anyway lack much information on them and no other unit seems more fitting. Those shouldn't be turned into some strange superunit though, more likely some fast, cheap, weak (for a champion) unit.

- Make Trade Ships able to garrison 20-30 units. 15 is too little for the ship closer to/ment to function as transport.
- Give every faction reform techs. I can provide detailed information on this for all factions besides Celt and Iberian ones (would need some research). More info at faction specific proposals.
- Add back the rank-up techs, but make them per unit-type and place them in the middle line of structure interface bellow each unit. This way you can make some of your units harder drilled by default and keep others better as workers. Makes sense historically as well, like a choice of core army units and simple levy units. It also gives the equivalent of Age Of Empires, medium/heavy/champion style upgrades. Or:
- Paired techs could work fine per unit, like Ekdromoi (Hoplite speed)/Bronze Cuirass (Hoplite armor). I can come up with such for most units if it's desired,
- Naval Prestige: Tech for Hellenistic factions (Macedon, Seleucid, Egypt) related to constructing big warships faster/cheaper/stronger. Macedon could use a top tier ship. It had a very strong navy including huge ships for a while.
- Expert Sailors: Dock tech for Carthage, Athens and Ptolemies increasing ship speed.
- Fanaticism/Ritual Sacrifice/Afterlife: Temple tech slightly increasing all unit attack speed and/or gather rate (like 5%)
- Coinage: Market tech providing a tickle of metal income per ally (could also be shared between researching player and allies)
- Fire Arrows: Tech making arrow firing units/ships/structures more effective vs ships/siege and wooden or all structures)
- Import Elephants: Market tech unlocking War Elephant Champions for some factions (maybe with a limit). Some factions like Macedon, Persia and Rome, especially the former, occasionally used War Elephants.
- Elephant Bells: Fortress/Elephant Stable tech adding a fear aura to elephants (or increasing an existing one. A fear aura should reduce nearby enemy damage or attack speed.
- Composite Bows: Barracks or Blacksmith tech increasing archer, horse archer (and possibly ship/structure) range for Persians, Seleucids, Mauryans (named longbows here) and maybe Ptolemies. Could also work for roman auxiliary archers if they get implemented.
- God choice: Several linked techs at the temple. Choosing a patron god would provide bonuses linked to the culture their worship would develop and their supposed attributes. Like Poseidon (Ships and Cavalry), Vulcan (Weapons/Armor) upgrades, Demeter (Farming), Melquart (Trade) etc. A number from 3 to anything per temple would work and also be a nice base for a mythology mode.

- Map based Auxiliaries/Mercenaries/Satrapal Levies: Ideally each map would be classified to a regional pool, and each faction would be able to train some civ-specific mercenaries (their most common perhaps) and some from the regional pool. Same with successor levy barracks structures. Mercenaries could train slightly fasted by default to make up for their high metal cost and add realism.

CAMPAIGN:

- Do you remember the old Medieval/Shogun Total War risk-style campaign maps? They were my favorites, as the limited the annoyingly high amount of battles in later TW games and the campaign AI had it easy to handle them, it actually was competitive. They also have increased replayability and easier design over a story-driven campaign. I'm suggesting something like those, instead of/in addition to story-driven. When formations-running-charging-stamina-trample etc are implemented, even battles could work total war style, as of avoiding build & destroy each time you invade a province. Instead, the units you have trained in the turn-based campaign map, will be the ones you'll be able to use in a tactical battle. Overall, with relatively minor extra coding and artistic work, the game could be the most complete experience in the genre, including all of RTS, TBS and RTT.

FACTION SPECIFICS

Trying to make each faction unique through historical attributes. Note that the unit lists I'm mentioning are chosen mostly from a historical perspective, balance and uniqueness for each faction on that field would need lengthy discussions.

ATHENIANS

The Athenians should have bonuses on navy, expansion, infantry mobility, economy and research, with an expand and defend playstyle. Faster built or cheaper Civ Centers will allow quick expansion (simulating colonization or vassalization of other's colonies) with mobile infantry forces and navies to protect them or raid enemy holdings. Later on, Philosopher units can help the colonies flurish enhancing construction, economy and research, to make up for a slightly weak late game military.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Athenian Hoplite
• (Athenian Skirmisher)
• (Athenian Cavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS (native units)

• Athenian Hoplite
• Athenian Skirmisher
• Athenian Slinger
• Athenian Archer
• Athenian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Athenian Cavalry Spearman
• (Iphicratian Hoplite - after reform)

MERCENARY CAMP/EMBASSY (limited to 1)

• Thracian Skirmisher
• (Iphicratian Hoplite - after reform)
• (Thracian Phomphaiophoros)
• (Thracian Cavalry Skirmisher)
• (Scythian Archer)
• (Cretan Archer)
• (Rhodian Slinger)

GYMNASION (Now this structure makes some sense for proposed champions, if they are rejected please rename it to garrison and add a new icon)

• Logades Hoplites - Elite hoplite force instead of the generic "city guard", same function. I've read they also trained to use bows, but not sure about the source. Going this way could have Logades Hoplites and Archers (picked force of both as champions) without marines full time on land.
• Marine Archers - Makes more sense than the scythians or some unhistorical marine swordsman. Marines could give an extra bonus when garrisoned in ships.

(NEW) ACADEMY STRUCTURE (For Greeks, Succesors, Romans and Maybe Carthaginians - library or some recently unbuildable greek structures as placeholders)

• Holds some (new) techs that don't fit elsewhere
• Philosopher Champion Healer: New unit that functions as a priest but also has an aura or empowerment skill increasing construction/train time/tech time.

REFORMS

• Iphicratian Reform: Increased movement speed for melee and ranged infantry, possibly at a slight armor trade-off if it proves too strong. Could also replace Hoplites with Iphicratian Hoplites looking similar to the current city guard.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Colonization/Athenian Empire: Cheaper/faster built CC that provide a small tickle of metal.
• Chorigoi (Sponsors): Dock tech reducing Trireme (metal?) cost.
• Iphicratids: Increases all infantry speed (if reforms aren't implemented) tech and
• Philosophy (or something related): reduced tech research time. Tech or bonus.
• Laurion Mines: Increased metal mining speed with each researched phase. Bonus.
• Shared (Team) bonus: Delian League - faster shipbuilding.

BRITONS

The Britons should be an offensive civ with relatively cheap and weak (in defense) early units and weaker, faster built (wooden) structures. This makes them a viable booming faction as well. More research needed.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Celtic Spearman
• (Celtic Skirmisher)
• (CelticCavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS (native units)

• Celtic Spearman
• Celtic Skirmisher
• Celtic Cavalry Skirmisher
• Celtic Slinger
• Celtic Cavalry Spearman
• (Celtic Archer)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Champion Longswordsman
• Champion Chariot

REFORMS

• Needs research

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Crossbreeding (or other tech): increased wardog attack/hp
• Woad/Body Paint: Temple tech adding a fear aura to melee infantry (slightly decreasing the attack speed or damage of melee enemies in range).
• As with Persians and Mauryans, but to a lesser extend, earlier units are cheaper/weaker, which gives an economic bonus
• Druids bonus/tech: Increased research rate
• Shared (Team) Bonus: Needs research

CARTHAGINIANS

The Carthaginians should have bonuses on naval trade, navy, exploration, expansion, defenses and mercenaries. Locating (with bonused scouting) and securing (with fast built or tough structures) metal deposits, to help them make the most out of their mercenary armies, as well as maintaining naval and trade superiority could be their core direction.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Libyan Spearman
• (Libyan Skirmisher)
• (Punic/Libyan Cavalry Spearman)

BARRACKS (Citizen/Subject People Recruits)

• Libyan Spearman
• Libyan Skirmisher
• (Mauritanian/Punic/Libyan Archer)
• Punic/Libyan Cavalry Spearman

MERCENARY CAMP/EMBASSY (Bonused to 2+ for Carthage)

• Numidian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Balearic Slinger
• Iberian Swordsman
• Iberian Skirmisher
• Gallic Swordsman
• Gallic Cavalry Spearman
• Iberian Cavalry Spearman
• Italian Cavalry Spearman
• Italian Swordsman
• (Numidian Skirmisher)
• (Numidian Archer)
• (Ligurian Spearman)
• (Gallic Spearman)
• (Iberian Spearman)
• (Greek Hoplite)
• (Cretan Archer)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• War Elephant

TEMPLE

• Sacred band infantry and Cavalry Champions (plus healers ofc)

REFORMS

• Barcid Armies: Increased armor for melee infantry units (rearmed with looted roman kits) and reduced mercenary costs (better handling of alliances and subjects through diplomacy and use of hostages)

POSSIBLE TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Colonization bonus: Either shared with Athens (cheaper/faster built CC) or faster built houses/CC/Temples.Works better as a bonus.
• Exploration: Increased unit/ship line of sight (maybe for civilian and non-mercenary units only, or just traders and ships). Works better as a bonus.
• Mass Production: Increased siege weapon train speed. Works better as a tech.
• Triple Walls/Fortified Barracks: Increased Wall, barracks, fortress, tower hp. Bonus or tech(s).
• Buff naval shipyard with repair aura, ability to garrison ships and an attack or some of them. Add naval architects to both docks, they were major shipbuilders from early on and not doing so makes their mid game navy weak.
• (Ability to corral horses/elephants/camels for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
• Shared (Team) bonus: Increased naval trade income

GAULS

The Gauls should be an offensive civ with relatively cheap and weak (in defense) early units and weaker, faster built (wooden) structures. This makes them a viable booming faction as well. Later on they get access to tougher units and upgrades.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Celtic Spearman
• (Celtic Skirmisher)
• (CelticCavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS (native units)

• Celtic Spearman
• Celtic Swordsman
• Celtic Skirmisher
• Celtic Cavalry Skirmisher
• Celtic Slinger
• Celtic Cavalry Spearman
• (Celtic Archer)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Champion Swordsman
• Champion Cavalry Spearman

REFORMS

• "Increased use of Chainmail": Increases armor (especially hack) for melee infantry and cavalry units.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Trimarcisia: Barracks tech increasing cavalry hit point regeneration (or later on stamina regeneration). A special tactic they used involving extra mounts and auxiliary servants for horsemen.
• As with Persians and Mauryans, but to a lesser extend, earlier units are cheaper/weaker, which gives an economic bonus
• Loot bonus: increased resources from destroying buildings, or income from attacking them.
• Mass Migration: increases all foot unit speed
• Druids bonus/tech: Increased research rate
• Shared (Team) Bonus: Foreign Service, decreasing mercenary and champion unit train times. Many Gauls served in foreign armies as mercenaries, settler troops or parts of elite/royal guard units.

IBERIANS

The Iberians are the ultimate turtle civ with several defensive bonuses and also specialize at guerilla warfare. Their units are quite varied but their navy is one of the weakest.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Iberian Swordsman
• (Iberian Skirmisher)
• (Iberian Cavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS (native units)

• Iberian Swordsman
• Iberian Skirmisher
• Iberian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Iberian Spearman
• Iberian Cavalry Spearman
• Balearic Slinger

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Champion Swordsman
• Champion Cavalry Skirmisher

REFORMS

• Needs research

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• I don't like the default wall bonus. It's imbalanced, looks strange and prevents desired city-building unless you start deleting the walls. An extra Civ Center default arrow and increase in Civ Center hp would work as maintaining their anti-rush attribute, and coupled with their stronger towers and forts make a good defensive civ.
• I thought of a way of implementing their ambush attribute. Iberian units could be detectable at a reduced percentage of enemy unit line of sight instead of the full of it. This could also work for selected units of other civs as well with good ambush abilities.
• When building capturing/loyalty is implemented (although I don't really like the concept having experimented with something similar in WC3) Iberian structures could be harder to capture to simulate their fierce resistance to Roman expansionism.
• (Ability to corral horses for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
• Flaming javelins tech
• Shared (Team) Bonus: Javelin armed non-champion units cheaper.

MACEDONIANS

The Macedonians field powerful cavalry, infantry and siege weapons and reliable missile units. A mostly offensive faction at early-mid game, that gets more staying power later on with reforms increasing the survivability of several units.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Macedonian Pikeman
• (Agrianian Skirmisher)
• (Macedonian Cavalry Spearman)

BARRACKS (Native and Closely related Subjects/Allies)

• Macedonian Pikeman
• Agrianian Skirmisher
• Thessalian Cavalry Spearman
• Odryssian Cavalry Skirmisher
• (Sarissophoros Cavalry Spearman)

MERCENARY CAMP(Limited to 1)

• Rhodian Slinger
• Cretan Archer
• Thracian Rhompaiophoros Swordsman
• Thracian Skirmisher
• Galatians Horse/Sword (After Reform)
• Greek Thyreophoroi (After Reform)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Hetairos (Companion Cavalry)
• Hypaspist/Silvershield
• Hetairos Aspidophoros (After Reform) - Resilient cavalry skirmisher.
• Royal Peltast (After Reform) - Could be anything from pikeman/skirmisher/swordsman.
• Kestros Slinger (After Reform) - High attack slinger, or turned into a slinger tech.
• War Elephant (Possible with Import elephants tech or with full metal cost at the mercenary camp)

REFORMS

• Early Antigonid Reform: Hetairos Aspidophoros replaces Hetairos. Royal Peltast replaces Hypaspist. Adds extra mercenary units.
• Late Antigonid Reform: Increases Pikeman hack armor and train speed. Adds Kestros Slinger Champion unit or tech.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Starting having Alexander's army rooster, then envolving into early and late era Antigonid Macedon with reforms.
• Give them Penteres (Heavy Warship). Could be with the early reform if not by default.
• Shared (Team) Bonus: Standardized Currency, Tribute and trade between allies of the metal resource is bonused ~ 15%(their old one, seems very interesting).
• Fetters of Hellas: late game tech increasing fortress hit points. Antigonid Macedonians controlled the most valuable fortified locations in Greece for a long while.
• (Ability to corral horses for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.

MAURYANS

The Mauryans could be an aggressive (rush) civ with weak, cheap and fast trained units, relatively weak and fast built (wooden) structures. This can also allow them to play with a booming playstyle, since cheap citizen-soldiers should give an early economic advantage. Their armies are rather weak with the exceptions of archery units and war elephants.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Worker Elephant
• Indian Spearman
• Indian Archer
• (Indian Cavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS

• Indian Spearman
• Indian Swordsman
• Indian Cavalry Spearman
• Indian Archer
• Indian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Indian Chariot

ELEPHANT STABLES

• Worker Elephant
• Elephant Archer Champion
• Armored Elephant Champion

FORTRESS

• Infantry Swordsman Champion (btw do we need almost identical male and female versions of the same unit? If female warriors were indeed important, perhaps make the archer version trainable instead).

REFORMS

• No clue yet.. did a little read and the only reform I found is related to pacifism.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• If realism is considered and early Mauryan units are weaker, cheaper and faster to train, this gives them by default a slight economic edge, so they need less bonuses compared to other factions.
• Shared (Team) Bonus: Evangelism, reducing temple tech cost/time sounds good as it is.
• (Ability to corral elephants for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.

PERSIANS

The Persians excel at massing weak, cheap infantry units supported by equally cheap but formidable archers. But what really stands out is their cavalry arm, one of the strongest among all civs. Their structures are strong as well, although a little slower to build.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Persian Spearman
• Persian Archer
• (Median Cavalry Skirmisher)

*options are endless, so I'll just go with "Persian" for many units

(LEVY) BARRACKS

• Persian Spearman
• Persian Archer
• Persian Skirmisher
• Cardacas Hoplite (After Reform)

STABLES

• Median Cavalry Skirmisher
• Scythed Chariot - as one-rank non-champion
• Scythian Horse Archer (could also be champion, subject to balance)
• Cappadocian Spear Cavalry
• Hycarnian Axe Cavalry

MERCENARY CAMP (Limited to 1 - After Reforms)

• Greek Mercenary Hoplite
• Greek Mercenary

PALACE (Champions)

• Immortal

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Bactrian Cavalry
• Indian War Elephant - (After reform if no "import elephants" tech is used)

REFORMS

• Late Achaemenid Reform: Unlocks Cardakas Hoplite, Mercenary Camp and possibly War Elephants

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Add Persian architecture as a default bonus, should work better. Weak, faster trained troops, out of strong, slower built structures. As a tech it's a bit discouraging.
• If realism is considered and early Persian units are weaker, cheaper and faster to train, this gives them by default a slight economic edge, so they need less bonuses compared to other factions.
• (Ability to corral horses/camels for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
• Cavalry have a transported size of 1 instead of 2.
• Shared (Team) Bonus: The Royal Road. Increased trader speed.

PTOLEMIES

The Ptolemies should have a well balanced military, with most troop types and better than average mercenaries, but that shouldn't be the core of their strength, somewhat lacking in champion units and military techs. Farming, research, naval and defense bonuses should make them a booming-defensive faction with a variety of secondary options.

CIV CENTER (Core regions such as Alexandria - Only buildable by Heroes?)

• Woman
• Macedonian Settler Pikeman
• (Thracian Settler Skirmisher)
• (Macedonian Settler Cavalry Spearman)

(LEVY) BARRACKS (Subject People Recruits)

• Judean Slinger
• Nabataean Camel Archer
• Machimos Pikeman Champion (After Reform)

MILITARY SETTLEMENT (Military Settler Colonies)

• Macedonian Settler Pikeman
• Thracian Settler Skirmisher
• Galatian Settler Swordsman
• Macedonian Settler Cavalry Spearman

MERCENARY CAMP (Limited to 1)

• Aetolian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Cretan Archer
• (Galatian Sword/Horse)
• (Thracian Skirm/HorseSkirm/Phomphaophoros)
• (Carian Axeman - Sword class)
• (Libyan Skirmisher)
• Hellenic Thyreophoros Spearman or Skirmisher

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Royal Guard (Agema) Cavalry
• War Elephant
• (Royal Foot Guard - hypaspist-like unit, many possible functions)
• (Machimoi Epilektoi - After Reforms)

REFORMS

• Machimoi Reform (Early): Unlocks the slightly weak, but cheap and fast to train Machimos Pikeman Champion.
• Romanization Reform (Late): New Thorakites Sword Champion replaces Macedonian Settler Pikeman and Machimos Thyreophoros (non-Champion) replaces Machimos Pikeman.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Farming bonus or tech (The Nile)
• Naval or Naval/Siege/structure tech (Great Engineering and Fleets)
• Recruiting Agents/Officers: Faster trained Mercenaries tech
• Garrison damage bonus or tech. They focused a lot on defensive garrisons.
• (Ability to corral elephants/camels for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.
• Shared (Team) bonus: Breadbasket of the Mediterranean a slow trickle of food income.

ROMANS

The Romans might have somewhat weak cavalry, but make up for it with easy to mass tough infantry, strong siege weapons/structures and increasingly good technology as the game advances.

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• Roman Swordsman - (alternative, a hoplite-like rank1 of triarii to simulate early roman army fighting that way)
• (Roman Skirmisher)
• (Roman Cavalry Spearman)

(LEGION) BARRACKS

• Roman Swordsman
• Roman Spearman - (could start at rank2 to simulate he's a veteran)
• Roman Skirmisher
• Roman Cavalry Spearman

AUXILIARY/MERCENARY CAMP (Limited to 1)

• Allied Cavalry Skirmisher
• Extraordinaire Champion
• (Allied legions/Italic units)

The Following are possible post-reform units

• Numidian Cavalry Skirmisher
• Numidian War Elephant
• Gallic/Germanic Horseman
• Balearic Slinger
• Rhodian Slinger
• Cretan Archer
• Syrian Archer

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Consular Bodyguard Champion

REFORMS

• Marian Reforms: Hastati, Triarii, Extraordinarii replaced by (Marian) Legionaries. Some mercenaries/auxiliaries unlocked as well

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Gladius: Tech increasing infantry swordsman attack speed (and maybe slightly reducing damage, but overall increasing dps)
• Logistics: Barracks or Army camp tech increasing infantry training (and batch training) speed. Their major strength, ability to field and replace big numbers of reliable heavy infantry needs to be represented in game.
• The overall focus on infantry, could kick the extraordinarri champions out of the rooster, or downgrade them, leaving romans with no champions (besides the bodyguard cav) before the reforms. This would be balanced by the massability of reliable citizen infantry.
• Imported Construction Technology: Tech slightly increasing ship/siege/structure hit points and damage. Simulating their common practice of copying whatever worked well from their enemies. Makes me think of the need for an academy type structure for some factions to hold such upgrades
• Shared (Team) Bonus: I'm thinking of a reverse thing here, debuffing all enemies instead of buffing allies. Roman allies were just ment to be absorbed by Rome later on anyway. So something like divide and conquer, what would be a nice in game bonus for it? Not that Socii (or citizenship) in the DD (but yet to be added I guess) are bad bonuses)

SELEUCIDS

The Seleucids probably have access to the largest troop variety of all civs, including several elite units and powerful reforms. Their other aspects could stay at average more or less for balance, even though historically they could have many other bonuses and their weaknesses don't translate well in RTS gameplay.

CIV CENTER (Core regions such as Antioch - Only buildable by Heroes?)

• Woman
• Macedonian Settler Pikeman
• (Neo-Cretan Archer)
• (Thessalian Settler Cavalry Spearman)

(LEVY) BARRACKS (Subject People Recruits)

• Syrian Archer
• Median Cavalry Skirmisher
• Arabian Skirmisher
• Scythed Chariot - as one-rank non-champion
• Dahae Horse Archer
• (Persian Archer, Cyrtian Slinger and goes on and on and on)

MILITARY SETTLEMENT (Military Settler Colonies)

• Macedonian Settler Pikeman
• Thracian Settler Skirmisher
• Neo-Cretan Archer
• Thessalian Settler Cavalry Spearman
• Silver Shield Pikeman Champion
• Thorakites Sword Champion (After Reform)
• Cataphract Champion (After Reform)
• (Thracian Settler Rhomphaophoros)

MERCENARY CAMP (Limited to 1)

• Galatian Swordsman/Horseman
• Cretan Archer
• Tarantine Cavalry Skirmisher
• Judean Thyreophoros Spearman or Slinger
• (Greek Skirmisher)

FORTRESS (Champions)

• Hetairos (Companion Cavalry)
• Armored War Elephant

REFORMS

• Cavalry Reform (Early): Cataphracts Replace Thessalian Horsemen
• Romanization Reform (Late): New Thorakites Sword Champion Available

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• "Plenty of Greek Settlers" Bonus: Increases Military Settlement training and bach training time (or construction speed).
• Shared (Team) Bonus: "Fertile Cresent"/"Silk Road"/"Mesopotamia"/"w/e" small boost to farming and land trade. (The old bonus of Syrian Tetrapolis seems too artificial to me).
• (Ability to corral horses/elephants/camels for reduced cost on respective units) Works better as a bonus.

SPARTANS

The Spartans can be a very unique faction with early available, very limited, super-elite infantry supported by average to poor other units. Late game reforms can provide a reliable, massable unit in Cleomenian Pikemen and improve other troop classes through newly unlocked mercenaries, so that they can stand against other faction's now powerful armies. Helots can be used as a unique worker unit with the best default farming rate (even if slaves are added in general).

CIV CENTER

• Woman
• (Helot - Slave worker with farming bonuses and degenerating hitpoints - going gaia and aggressive at low health)
• (Spartan Hoplite Champion limited to one per farm or house - can't gather/build)
• (Spartan Hoplite - alternative to the above, a bit tougher, more expensive and longer to train than other early units - possibly can't gather/build)
• (Helot Skirmisher)
• (Perioikos Cavalry Skirmisher)

BARRACKS (Subjects such as perioikoi, helots and skiritae - those were a actually tribe, not spartan commandos, probably being confused with crypteia)

• Helot Skirmisher
• Perioikos Hoplite
• Perioikos Cavalry Skirmisher
• Skiritis Ekdromos (fast light spearman)

MERCENARY CAMP/EMBASSY (limited to 1)

• Cretan Archers
• Tarantine Cavarly Skirmisher
• (Elean Cavalry Spearman)
• (Arcadian Hoplite)
• (Hellenic Thyreophoros Spearman or Skirmisher)
• (Rodian or Arcadian Slingers)

SYSSITION (Champion Units)

• Spartan Hoplite Champion
• Cleomenian Pikeman - after reform
• (Spartan Royal Guard or Hippeis Champion - if early champion idea is rejected and normal spartan hoplites are used)
• (Crypteia - swordsman for variety? - Special operations and police force, often used to terrorize-murder helots. Could have a helot suppression aura preventing helot revolts if helot workers are used)

REFORMS

• Cleomenian Reform: Unlocks pikemen citizen-soldiers, provides a farming bonus and possibly unlocks some of the mercenaries.

TECHS/BONUSES/COMMENTS

• Agoge and Female bonus more or less as they are.
• Tyrtean Paeans: Spartan hoplites move faster. Tech.
• Replace Agis - who seems less interesting with no aura - with Cleomenes III, having an aura buffing pikemen.
• Shared (Team bonus): Peloponessian League - Citizen Infantry Spearmen train faster.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[Prodigal Son]

For the second part I have several suggestions on mostly new things rather than needed fixes and current gameplay.

A balancing template (stolen from here and adjusted accordingly):

This system allows for easy balance changes and understanding of unit stats and attributes. With it each unit has it's stats adjusted according to it's level (L). Exact modifiers per stat can change, those suggested should be close to current gameplay balance. Say units prove too expensive, you can adjust the resource cost modifier to something lower universally. If kill rates make the game too fast, dps can also be reduced universally.

Pop Cost: 1xL
Resource Cost: 100xL
Train Time: 10xL
Hp: 100xL
Dps: 10xL
Armor: 5xL
Movement: Average
Range: Melee
Skills: N/A

Then each unit can have some of it's stats modified to give it a more specific role. It's easy to keep track on how much and in what fields a unit is changed. I'm not going to mess with armor and attack types to keep it relatively simple for now. For example:

Spearman (level 1)
Pop Cost: 1
Resource Cost: 100
Train Time: 10 sec
Hp: 120 (100 +20% bonus for spearman class)
Dps: 10 (20 attack with a 2 sec cooldown as spear is a big weapon)
Armor: 7 (5 +40% bonus for spearman class)
Movement: Average
Range: Melee (could be slightly larger, and even more for pikemen. Pikemen could also have lower collision to work better in groups, at least until syntagma formation is properly implemented)
Skills: N/A

Then for each faction more specifics could be applied for more historical flavor and varied gameplay:

Sparabara (Persian Spearman) (level 1)
Pop Cost: 1
Resource Cost: 80 (100 -20% as an untrained levy)
Train Time: 8 sec (10 -20% as an untrained levy)
Hp: 120 (100 + 20% bonus)
Dps: 8 (10 -20% as an untrained levy)
Armor: 5 (Removed bonus as it's a light unit compared to most spearmen)
Movement: Average
Range: Melee
Skills: N/A

Now, to a Cavalry unit:
Cavalry Spearman (level 2)
Pop Cost: 2 (Cavalry units were more rare, stronger per unit and there's a need to maintain the mount as well)
Resource Cost: 200
Train Time: 20 sec
Hp: 200
Dps: 24 (20 + 20% - until charge is implemented, since it's an offensive unit it needs an attack boost)
Armor: 10
Movement: Fast (As mounted)
Range: Melee
Skills: N/A

I have ideas on balancing each unit type this way, but will avoid making this part any longer.

*A note here, I think cavalry also need a transported size of 2 (even more for elephants/large siege). The Persian skill in transporting cavalry which is translated in a (silly imo) bonus of training cavalry from ships could then be shifted to persian cavalry units having a trasported size of 1.

*Units with bigger collision size need slightly better stats since they can be attacked by more enemies at the same time. Also lowering costs and train times like in the Persian Spearman example isn't perfect with the "citizen soldiers as workers" concept since it gives some factions an early game economic bonus, but imo it's a nice flavor and should be balanced on other ways. It partly does with having weaker troops that will die easier by rushes giving stat-boosting ranks to tougher units.

More coming soon

Edited September 28, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[Prodigal Son]

Some General Suggestions and Tech Proposals:

- Move all cavalry units (besides the starting scout) to the town phase. That's what all major RTS do for fast units, they have them at tier2+. A village wouldn't have a cavalry force anyway. Fits nicely with my stronger and costlier cavalry proposal as well.

- Make Trade Ships able to garrison 20-30 units. 15 is too little for the ship closer to/ment to function as transport.
- Give every faction reform techs. I can provide detailed information on this for all factions besides Celt and Iberian ones (would need some research). More info at faction specific proposals.
- Add back the rank-up techs, but make them per unit-type and place them in the middle line of structure interface bellow each unit. This way you can make some of your units harder drilled by default and keep others better as workers. Makes sense historically as well, like a choice of core army units and simple levy units. It also gives the equivalent of Age Of Empires, medium/heavy/champion style upgrades. Or:
- Paired techs could work fine per unit, like Ekdromoi (Hoplite speed)/Bronze Cuirass (Hoplite armor). I can come up with such for most units if it's desired,
- Naval Prestige: Tech for Hellenistic factions (Macedon, Seleucid, Egypt) related to constructing big warships faster/cheaper/stronger. Macedon could use a top tier ship. It had a very strong navy including huge ships for a while.
- Expert Sailors: Dock tech for Carthage, Athens and Ptolemies increasing ship speed.
- Fanaticism/Ritual Sacrifice/Afterlife: Temple tech slightly increasing all unit attack speed and/or gather rate (like 5%)
- Coinage: Market tech providing a tickle of metal income per ally (could also be shared between researching player and allies)
- Fire Arrows: Tech making arrow firing units/ships/structures more effective vs ships/siege and wooden or all structures)
- Import Elephants: Market tech unlocking War Elephant Champions for some factions (maybe with a limit). Some factions like Macedon, Persia and Rome, especially the former, occasionally used War Elephants.
- Elephant Bells: Fortress/Elephant Stable tech adding a fear aura to elephants (or increasing an existing one. A fear aura should reduce nearby enemy damage or attack speed.
- Composite Bows: Barracks or Blacksmith tech increasing archer, horse archer (and possibly ship/structure) range for Persians, Seleucids, Mauryans (named longbows here) and maybe Ptolemies. Could also work for roman auxiliary archers if they get implemented.
- God choice: Several linked techs at the temple. Choosing a patron god would provide bonuses linked to the culture their worship would develop and their supposed attributes. Like Poseidon (Ships and Cavalry), Vulcan (Weapons/Armor) upgrades, Demeter (Farming), Melquart (Trade) etc. A number from 3 to anything per temple would work and also be a nice base for a mythology mode.

- Map based Auxiliaries/Mercenaries/Satrapal Levies. An option to set "region" per map during creation on the editor. So if the map is set in Gaul, Carthaginians would hire Gallic mercenaries (in a single embassy structure), Rome auxiliaries, Seleucids/Persians train Gallic levies instead of some of their non core units. I guess this one goes a bit too far:p

More Coming Soon

Edited September 28, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[Prodigal Son]

Faction Specifics (Trying to make each faction more unique through historical attributes, part1/4)

Athenians

Athens as a faction with naval strength (especially mid-game), good tech/infantry/ranged units and an expand & protect focus.

Reforms:

- Iphicratian Reforms, instead of the (silly imo) "train units from ships" bonus, should give speed bonuses to infantry units. Iphicrates improved Hoplite mobility and focused on skirmishers. Makes sense for a Civ with weak cavalry that focuses on expanding and protecting it's colonies.

Other:

- Colonization (Civ Bonus): Civ Centers Cheaper or build faster

- Athenian Empire (Civ Bonus): Civ Centers, Triremes or both provide a small tickle of metal.

Athens' main strategy was founding colonies/allying coastal towns and protecting/taxing them.

- Philosopher (Champion Healer): New unit that functions as a priest but also has an aura or empowerment skill increasing construction/train time/tech time.

- Chorigoi (Sponsors): Dock tech reducing Trireme cost.

Notice how the above proposals co-relate with the expand & protect focus.

- Champion Hoplite "Logades": Historical elite Athenian unit with the same function instead of City Guards.

I wouldn't like seeing an army of "City Guards" attacking a town.

- Replace Cretan Archers with native/marine Athenian archers or with reasonably downgraded (non-champion) Scythian Archers.

Alternatives:

- If the reforms idea is not implemented an "Iphicratids" tech (the special boots he introduced) could add infantry unit speed.

- If the Philosopher unit is not implemented, a "Philosophy" tech could make techs slightly cheaper or faster to research. Or increase unit line of sight.

Britons:

An offensive civ with weaker but faster to build structures and a relatively good all around army (somewhat lacking cavalry).

Reforms:

- Needs Research

Other:

- Crossbreeding: Kennel tech increasing War Dog attack/Hp

- Woad: Temple tech adding a fear aura to melee infantry (decreasing the attack speed or damage of melee enemies in range).

- Give them back their faster built but weaker structures (even with less differences than before). Could also be slightly cheaper. Forts, Towers and Civ Centers could stay at average stats.

Carthaginians:

Focusing on navy, trade, mercenaries and strong defenses.

Reforms:

- Barcid/Late Armies, increases melee infantry armor and reduces mercenary cost (Through alliances with tribes and city states).

Other:

- Colonization (Civ Bonus): (Like Athens) Cheaper or faster to build Civ Centers or add the existing tech as a default bonus
- Add exploration (unit/ship line of sight) as default Civ Bonus
- Mass Production: Fortress tech increasing siege weapon train speed. They often had huge numbers of them.

- Give them back their wall bonuses even if lesser and/or a tech increasing tower, fortress, barracks and wall hp. They had massive walls with built-in barracks, stables and elephant stables.

- If we want Carthage to be the ultimate naval faction, let's not handicap them by having naval architects only at/for the military dock.

- Naval Shipyard could also garrison a number of ships and possibly get an attack.

More coming soon

Edited September 28, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[Pureon]

This is really interesting feedback btw, please continue

[serveurix]

- I'm not going to mention unit tooltips needing changes or updating, they were too many to note or notice all of them.

Have you tried to activate the detailed tooltips in the options ? There are still a few things missing, but it's much better than basic tooltips.

- Siege unit cost reduction techs are expensive for their purpose, considering siege units aren't spammable. Stone cost seems a bit out of place as well.

It doesn't shock me that stone throwers cost stone.

- "Sturdy Foundations" should either be cheaper or stronger. Or they could affect forts as well. Towers and Forts could get a population cost (of 1/3), simulating default arrow crews and making you choose between extensive defenses and a bigger mobile army.

I don't agree with this. In the current state, empty towers and forts are not enough to make your city impenetrable, even when upgraded. If you want to make them really strong you need to garrison them/put units on your walls and this forces you to significantly reduce the size of your mobile army.

- Marian Reforms shouldn't be hard to implement. Just a tech that replaces Hastati, Triarii and Extrardinarii with (existing in editor) Marian Legionaries and possibly adds some also existing auxiliaries. More detail later on.

Aren't Marian reforms planned for Part 2 ?

- Same with priests and food. At least give them half metal cost, they shouldn't be a spammable unit.

I agree. Priests should be a bit more expensive : they should be hard to protect and worth fighting for.

- If we want Carthage to be the ultimate naval faction, let's not handicap them by having naval architects only at/for the military dock.

I have proposed in an other post to make the carthage military dock a special building to unlock some techs or bonuses, because it is big and hard to place, and if carthaginians have to build several of them, (along with regular docks for fishing and trade), it gives them more of a disadvantage than an advantage on sea.

(but adding military ships to the regular dock is already a change in the good direction)

I agree with most of the other things you say in this first post, or find them interesting enough to be worth considering.

[serveurix]

For the three other posts :

I won't comment on the stat changes, I'm not an expert on this.

Most of the tech changes you propose are really interesting. I just have a few comments on them :

- Move all cavalry units (besides the starting scout) to the town phase. That's what all major RTS do for fast units, they have them at tier2+. A village wouldn't have a cavalry force anyway. Fits nicely with my stronger and costlier cavalry proposal as well.

I'm not really an expert on history, but It doesn't shock me that a village or a small city is able to use a citizen cavalry. Horses were used a lot more than now, and in a village you could always find men that would be able to ride a horse (I'm mostly thinking about celts when I say this, but this is maybe less true for greek or persians). Of course we're not talking about a heavy organised cavalry force here.

Maybe it would be more realistic to make the light cavalry expensive at phase 1, and less expensive at phase 2, where proper cavalry training could be assimilated to "mass-production".

And maybe this could depend on the faction. Didn't the romans have a cavalry force from the very early times of Rome ?

- Naval Prestige: Tech for Hellenistic factions (Macedon, Seleucid, Egypt) related to constructing big warships faster/cheaper/stronger. Macedon could use a top tier ship. It had a very strong navy including huge ships for a while.

Carthage should have a similar tech too. The french Wikipedia mentions that the Marsala punic shipwrecks have revealed that the carthaginians used a technology that allowed them to build warships, including big ones like quinqueremes, at a very fast rate. They already had this technology during the first punic war, which gave them a great advantage against the romans (but the romans were able to keep up because their politicians and upper-class citizen were constantly providing new ships and money for the war effort).

- God choice: Several linked techs at the temple. Choosing a patron god would provide bonuses linked to the culture their worship would develop and their supposed attributes. Like Poseidon (Ships and Cavalry), Vulcan (Weapons/Armor) upgrades, Demeter (Farming), Melquart (Trade) etc. A number from 3 to anything per temple would work and also be a nice base for a mythology mode.

If this has to be implemented we should be very careful to show that the bonuses are linked to the culture that the people developed, and not to the god itself. Otherwise it would indeed look like a mythology game, which is almost the opposite of the goal of the project.

[serveurix]

Carthage should have a similar tech too. The french Wikipedia mentions that the Marsala punic shipwrecks have revealed that the carthaginians used a technology that allowed them to build warships, including big ones like quinqueremes, at a very fast rate. They already had this technology during the first punic war, which gave them a great advantage against the romans (but the romans were able to keep up because their politicians and upper-class citizen were constantly providing new ships and money for the war effort).

I've tried to translate some of the related parts of the french Wikipedia. I don't guarantee the translation is 100% correct, since there are a lot of naval technical terms that I didn't even know in french, but I've used all the dictionaries I could find and I think I've done the best I could :

[...] According to the tracking letters painted on the hull pieces, those ships seem to have been built following a standardised process avoiding the long shaping of the gunwale pieces. This assessment would justify the statement made by the historians of Antiquity on the remarkable rapidity of construction of those ships, that wasn't considered very plausible till then. [...]

[...] The ships of Marsala followed a very elaborated technique. Usually the antique naval shipyards used to set up the hull and the keel in a second phase, after they've made the keel, the sternpost and the gunwale. In Marsala the builders have put the garbords using tenons on the keel, then placed the strake elements of the planking under the waterline, then made the floors, and finally made the gunwale. The construction technique of the gunwale of the Marsala shipwreck is very particular, with a difference between the planks which are under the waterline and those which are above it, whose inferior edge has a bulge whose purpose is to avoid splashing on the deck when the ship sailed at a quick pace.

Every plank of the keel was tagged with alphabetic signs used for the assembly. Punics word have been identified too. The writings appeared on the inner sides of the keel and the hull. Each sign allowed to indicate the position of each piece. The elements of the ships were made by carpenters and given to the shipwrights. They were probably stocked in the warehouse of the port, and the naval shipyards could then work in every season. [...]

Appian signals that during the third punic war, around 147 B.C., despite the roman siege of Carthage, the Carthaginians built several dozens of ships, triremes and quinqueremes. Since the discovery of Marsala, we have no more reasons to doubt this statement. This construction system also allows to understand the story of Polybius which mentions the capture of a punic ship by the romans and its use as a model to build their own fleet. [...]

sources : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premi%C3%A8re_guerre_punique#Apports_de_l.E2.80.99arch.C3.A9ologie and https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89paves_puniques_de_Marsala , license is CC by-sa 3.0 I think.

[niektb]

In fact, there is a Marian reforms tech but it is disabled (not researchable).

Gaius Marius was alive during part 1, no reason to push his reforms to part 2, IMO.

Those Reforms technologies are the most interesting to me. It is however required to be able to disable the training of units by tech research (so you could for example swap one unit type for another)

[plumo]

My observations after last night's game with staff (mostly about economy).

- Berries carry too little food. It is quickly gone (why even research wicker baskets (faster berry gathering speed)?)

- the game relies too heavily on wood (buildings, upgrades, units...) Also, trees could carry some more wood.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Faction Specifics (Trying to make each faction more unique through historical attributes)

Athenians

Athens as a faction with naval strength (especially mid-game), good tech/infantry/ranged units and an expand & protect focus.

Reforms:

- Iphicratian Reforms, instead of the (silly imo) "train units from ships" bonus, should give speed bonuses to infantry units. Iphicrates improved Hoplite mobility and focused on skirmishers. Makes sense for a Civ with weak cavalry that focuses on expanding and protecting it's colonies.

Other:

- Colonization (Civ Bonus): Civ Centers Cheaper or build faster

- Athenian Empire (Civ Bonus): Civ Centers, Triremes or both provide a small tickle of metal.

Athens' main strategy was founding colonies/allying coastal towns and protecting/taxing them.

Actually, the Athenians did not plant that many colonies compared to cities like Corinth. Rather, I would recommend that they have trade and infrastructure bonuses. If there are philosophers, other Greek powers also had very influential ones so it should not be limited to only Athens but also Macedonia and the Ptolomies.

Finally, regarding the choice of moving cavalry to the town phase, I think the the problem isn't so much that but repurposing them. Starting cavalry should be weaker and only used for purposes such as scouting and hunting. Without inventions like the saddle for for riders, charging would be relatively ineffective. A technology like that available during the town phase could be a logical idea.

[Prodigal Son]

This is really interesting feedback btw, please continue

Thanks, I plan to do so, pretty soon:)

Have you tried to activate the detailed tooltips in the options ? There are still a few things missing, but it's much better than basic tooltips.

I think I haven't. I'm not blaming anyone anyway, I know they are too many and recent changes were quite big.

It doesn't shock me that stone throwers cost stone.

I'm talking about the upgrade techs here, as of artillery instructors/makers etc. People shouldn't cost stone.

I don't agree with this. In the current state, empty towers and forts are not enough to make your city impenetrable, even when upgraded. If you want to make them really strong you need to garrison them/put units on your walls and this forces you to significantly reduce the size of your mobile army.

I'm actually suggesting to buff their tech. At the same time though, having them cost 1 pop for each default arrow seems reasonable to me, as of sacrificing potential offensive power if you want strong garrisons. It has worked very well in my WC3 mod and got nice comments from experienced RTS players.

Aren't Marian reforms planned for Part 2 ?

See what niektb said bellow.

I agree. Priests should be a bit more expensive : they should be hard to protect and worth fighting for.

Agreed:)

I have proposed in an other post to make the carthage military dock a special building to unlock some techs or bonuses, because it is big and hard to place, and if carthaginians have to build several of them, (along with regular docks for fishing and trade), it gives them more of a disadvantage than an advantage on sea.

(but adding military ships to the regular dock is already a change in the good direction)

Yup it's a nice start. Unique techs or some shared only with other strong naval factions are welcome as well. And/or the thing I mentioned.

I agree with most of the other things you say in this first post, or find them interesting enough to be worth considering.

For the three other posts :

I won't comment on the stat changes, I'm not an expert on this.

Most of the tech changes you propose are really interesting. I just have a few comments on them :

I'm not really an expert on history, but It doesn't shock me that a village or a small city is able to use a citizen cavalry. Horses were used a lot more than now, and in a village you could always find men that would be able to ride a horse (I'm mostly thinking about celts when I say this, but this is maybe less true for greek or persians). Of course we're not talking about a heavy organised cavalry force here.

Maybe it would be more realistic to make the light cavalry expensive at phase 1, and less expensive at phase 2, where proper cavalry training could be assimilated to "mass-production".

And maybe this could depend on the faction. Didn't the romans have a cavalry force from the very early times of Rome ?

While that doesn't sound impossible, it should be quite rare. Maintaining warhorses was expensive and excluding the steppe/eastern/nomad people only a small percentage of armies anyway. Usually only very rich nobles had horses. How many would there be in a village? Worth representing, especially when it goes against the most common/successful RTS design choice (fast units at tier 2+)? Including it for only some civs, that would have some of an early cavalry force, would cause a serious village phase imbalance.

Carthage should have a similar tech too. The french Wikipedia mentions that the Marsala punic shipwrecks have revealed that the carthaginians used a technology that allowed them to build warships, including big ones like quinqueremes, at a very fast rate. They already had this technology during the first punic war, which gave them a great advantage against the romans (but the romans were able to keep up because their politicians and upper-class citizen were constantly providing new ships and money for the war effort).

I had in mind the Successor naval arms race when thinking of this tech but I guess it could fit with Carthage as well.

If this has to be implemented we should be very careful to show that the bonuses are linked to the culture that the people developed, and not to the god itself. Otherwise it would indeed look like a mythology game, which is almost the opposite of the goal of the project.

Totally with you here.

In fact, there is a Marian reforms tech but it is disabled (not researchable).

Gaius Marius was alive during part 1, no reason to push his reforms to part 2, IMO.

Those Reforms technologies are the most interesting to me. It is however required to be able to disable the training of units by tech research (so you could for example swap one unit type for another)

Agreed, part 2 will have imperial romans anyway, not late republican (such as Marius). I'll bring up more along with the rest of the factions. Imo they shouldn't necessarily swap out a unit, the effect should depend on the civ they are for and close to what happened in history while keeping in mind balance and variety.

My observations after last night's game with staff (mostly about economy).

- Berries carry too little food. It is quickly gone (why even research wicker baskets (faster berry gathering speed)?)

- the game relies too heavily on wood (buildings, upgrades, units...) Also, trees could carry some more wood.

It really depends on the map about wood, although a small increase could be nice for light forested maps. Berries do deplete too fast, but I think it's fine as a design choice, I've never had an issue on changing to hunting/farming/fishing towards their depletion.

Actually, the Athenians did not plant that many colonies compared to cities like Corinth. Rather, I would recommend that they have trade and infrastructure bonuses. If there are philosophers, other Greek powers also had very influential ones so it should not be limited to only Athens but also Macedonia and the Ptolomies.

Compared to other civs in the game (besides Carthage), they did. It also represents bullying theirs/other colonies/coastal towns under their protection for benefits. The fact is that whenever they were left unchecked by other big powers they were very fast to expand their influence all over the Aegean and easy Civ Center building is the best way to implement it in game imo.

Sure others had philosophers as well. But Athens was developed in that aspect and lacks unit variety compared to Macedon or Ptolemies. They would buff their teching and infrastructure nicely and enhance their expand and protect doctrine with faster build up of new settlements while healing protecting troops recovering them from enemy attacks.

Finally, regarding the choice of moving cavalry to the town phase, I think the the problem isn't so much that but repurposing them. Starting cavalry should be weaker and only used for purposes such as scouting and hunting. Without inventions like the saddle for for riders, charging would be relatively ineffective. A technology like that available during the town phase could be a logical idea.

The scout could do the scouting and hunting thing. He's already too much of the population as a cavalry percentage in a village from a realism aspect:p. All major RTS have one melee foot unit (and some one ranged as well) for tier 1. And fast units/cavalry come into game later. Want to raid with (a bit stronger than now) cavalry instead of an infantry rush? Tech fast to tier 2 while the opponent still booms their economy and do so. It also fits well with a historical progress in ancient warfare. At first classes were mostly between masses of infantry (exception - persians), with ranged units introduced little by little. Then some cavalry later on and further, more civ - specific changes along the way.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[Lion.Kanzen]

I worry a lot, lacking of wood in some maps like Anatolían Plateau.

Other lacking is cívic techs like as we can found in a governament center. (AOE)or library (AOK), laws, aristocracy reforms, historical festivals and religious tech that affects other units beyond than healers.

Some ideas:

After life. (Soldiers def. bonus)

Fanaticism (soldiers attack bonus)

Divine ancestry (hero defense bonus)

Holy war (experience bonus)

Destiny ( hero attack bonus)

[niektb]

[...]

Agreed, part 2 will have imperial romans anyway, not late republican (such as Marius). I'll bring up more along with the rest of the factions. Imo they shouldn't necessarily swap out a unit, the effect should depend on the civ they are for and close to what happened in history while keeping in mind balance and variety.

[...]

Just looking at the design doc the Marian Reforms replaces all soldiers with Marian Legionnaires.

From the design document:

• Name: Marian Reforms
• History: In response to a Gallic-Germanic invasion, the great Gaius Marius reformed the Roman army, turning it from a part-time militia into a professional military force.
• Effect:
  • All infantry (Hastatus, Principes, Veles, Triarius, Extraordinarius) instantly upgrade to Marian Legionnaires, a champion swordsman whose only citizen-soldier function is in the building of Army Camps, Siege Walls, and Fortresses. Furthermore, no longer can citizen-soldiers be trained, but rather only Marian Legionnaires. This has a large economic impact and is generally a late-game attempt at a game-changer.
  • Swift Numidian Cavalry unlocked.

Edited September 28, 2014 by niektb

[Prodigal Son]

Faction Specifics (Trying to make each faction more unique through historical attributes, part 2/4)

Gauls:

An offensive civ with weaker but faster to build structures and a relatively good all around army (similar to Britons).

Reforms:

- Needs research, possibly around heavier melee units.

Other:

- Trimarcisia: Barracks tech increasing cavalry hit point regeneration (or later on stamina regeneration). A special tactic they used involving extra mounts and auxiliary servants for horsemen.

- Give them back their faster but weaker structures (even with less differences than before). Could also be slightly cheaper. Forts, Towers and Civ Centers could stay at average stats.

- A civ bonus or tech representing mass migrations and raids, adding infantry speed or stealing/gaining resources by attacking structures.

Iberians:

Defensive and raiding/ambushing civ.

Reforms:

- Needs research.

Other:

- I don't like the default wall bonus. It's imbalanced, looks strange and prevents desired city-building unless you start deleting the walls. An extra Civ Center default arrow and increase in Civ Center hp would work as maintaining their anti-rush attribute, and coupled with their stronger towers and forts make a good defensive civ.

- I thought of a way of implementing their ambush attribute. Iberian units could be detectable at a reduced percentage of enemy unit line of sight instead of the full of it. This could also work for selected units of other civs as well with good ambush abilities.
- When building capturing/loyalty is implemented (although I don't really like the concept having experimented with something similar in WC3) Iberian structures could be harder to capture to simulate their fierce resistance to Roman expansionism.

Macedonians:

Balanced civ with a focus on military.

Reforms:

- Early Antigonid Reforms: Adds Hetairoi Aspidophoroi champion cavalry skirmisher with a focus on resilience (or replaces Hetairoi with them). The remaining macedonian nobility became more conservative with glorious cavalry charges after decades of constant warfare and a majority of them migrating to the east.

- Late Antigonid Reforms: Increases pikeman (hack) armor. Increased focus on infantry and an attempt to counter roman expansion resulted in more numerous and heavier pikemen.

Other:

- Kestros Slings: Tech greatly increasing slinger attack. Could be included on the late reform or be made an extra champion unit for flavor (there's not any champion slinger unit).

- They could use a heavy warship, they at times had strong navies including huge ships.

- Royal Peltasts: Champion unit that replaced the hypaspists. Fought as skirmishers, pikemen and shock infantry. Could be tied to the early reform.

- They started to heavily use Thracians (even implementing them in the pike phalanx as macedonian numbers went down) and merceneries in general in an attempt to let their population recover. Could work as: An extra thracian unit, a mercenary thureophoros unit, a tech increasing pikeman training speed. Could be tied to the early or late reform depending on what's chosen.

- Sarissophoroi light pike-bearing cavalry is an interesting unit left out, I don't know if it could fit in the rooster without a change on how auxiliary/allied/mercenary units are handled. Such a change could bring them to the core rooster and have thessalian cav and other units at a mercenary barracks limited to 1 (excluding carthage and maybe ptolemies who would be able to build more) if something like that is desired for all factions.

More coming soon

Edited September 28, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[Prodigal Son]

I worry a lot, lacking of wood in some maps like Anatolían Plateau.

Other lacking is cívic techs like as we can found in a governament center. (AOE)or library (AOK), laws, aristocracy reforms, historical festivals and religious tech that affects other units beyond than healers.

Some ideas:

After life. (Soldiers def. bonus)

Fanaticism (soldiers attack bonus)

Divine ancestry (hero defense bonus)

Holy war (experience bonus)

Destiny ( hero attack bonus)

I like some of those tech proposals. I'm also thinking that an academy type building is missing, some of the techs I have in mind don't really fit elsewhere.

Just looking at the design doc the Marian Reforms replaces all soldiers with Marian Legionnaires.

From the design document:

I'm aware. I'll go in more detail when I touch the Roman specifics:)

Edited September 28, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[auron2401]

Agreed GREATLY on starting walls, but im confused about the macedonian reforms.

Do you have to research one to research the second one? Or are can you only research one of them?
(In which case, rename is in order. )

[plumo]

Other observation on Carthaginian Civ: barracks produces the same 3 units as the civ centre.... Shouldn't the barracks be a bit more specialized? Or the Civ Centre loose some of its military units?

I agree with OP: an academy building is missing (with civil techs, unique bonuses, ...) (cfr: University in Age of Kings).

[Prodigal Son]

Agreed GREATLY on starting walls, but im confused about the macedonian reforms.

Do you have to research one to research the second one? Or are can you only research one of them?

(In which case, rename is in order. )

I'm mostly laying down generic concepts here. They are too many to go in detail and some of them would need more thought, especially for the macedonians (see how almost all of my proposals can be tied into the reforms - which isn't bad, they are an all-around civ already with no need for major changes from a gameplay point of view). Most of my ideas are subject to renaming even if i had the direct authority to implement them as I desired. On this example they could be merged into one (they happened over some decades). If not, I'd rather have both of them available.

Other observation on Carthaginian Civ: barracks produces the same 3 units as the civ centre.... Shouldn't the barracks be a bit more specialized? Or the Civ Centre loose some of its military units?

I notice that every time a play them. Imo Civ center/Barracks/Military Settlement/Embassy/Mercenary camp units for most factions need a reorganization. In short something along the lines of:

Civ Center:

Native melee unit (Plus archer for Persians and Mauryans who would have weak core melee units and had developed early archer warfare)

Barracks (Not Seleucids/Ptolemies):

Tier1: Native melee unit + Native ranged unit

Tier2: Extra native melee/ranged infantry units, Native Cavalry

Tier3: On some cases champions

(Levy) Barracks (Seleucids/Ptolemies):

Tier1: Subject people's melee unit + Subject people's ranged unit

Tier2: Extra Subject people's melee/ranged infantry units, Subject people's Cavalry

Tier3: On some cases champions

Military Settlement (Seleucids/Ptolemies):

Settler (Greek/Macedonian/Galatian/Thracian etc) units

Mercenary Camp (limited to 1 for all but Carthage - Ptolemies and maybe others could have minor bonuses here):

Mercenary units

Forts, siege workshops etc stay more or less the same.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[plumo]

-The civ centre should produce women and a native melee unit (for gathering resources). Maybe also a scout unit (limited to 1), with auto-scout function (cfr. Rise of Nations).

Barracks should be the main unit recruitment center.

- I don't like the current 'embassies' for carthage: you can build all three buildings which don't fit the general feel of the Carthaginian building set.

I rather have 1 embassy/mercenary building in carthaginian style. Then you can select (like a tech) to send envoys to Italy/Iberia/Gaul (only one of the three). When researched, the building has details of that culture (weapons, shields, ...). You can only build one embassy, but you can cancel your treaty with one nation, and research another place again.

For example: you build the embassy, you select 'treaty with Iberia'. After 60 seconds, your embassy building gets Iberian details (to be defined). Now you can recruit some Iberian units and techs.

You can cancel your treaty with Iberia, and after a cooldown get a treaty with Italy etc...

[Prodigal Son]

Faction Specifics (Trying to make each faction more unique through historical attributes, part 3/4)

Mauryans

Good booming with mass-able cheap troops and special bonuses. Powerful late game units.

Reforms:

- Not sure, possibly unlocking the heavy infantry champions, since early Indian armies were mostly masses of light troops supported with cavalry, chariots and elephants.

Other:

- Make All chariots non-champions (maybe excluding Briton ones as a cheap-weak-fast champion). They already have too many champions, chariots we generally ineffective. But keep them at one rank (and make all chariots so). It looks strange with new cart shapes and horses appearing out of nowhere. Could be justified by them being an outdated, so, unupgradable unit.

- Elephant archers deserve the champion role more. They could still stay at tier2, an early access champion as a factional bonus. Seeing them hunt also feels strange and while the archer per rank is a nice concept, it also looks strange on upgrade (less so than chariots though).

Persians

Good economy and defenses, weak, cheap early units and strong cavalry.

Reforms:

- Late Achaemenid Reforms: Kardakes hoplites, or Greek mercenary hoplites unlocked providing a reliable non-champion melee infantry. Needed with the Immortals trainable from only one structure and from a historical point of view as well.

Other:
- Add Persian architecture as a default bonus.

- One-rank chariots (see Mauryans)

- If "import elephants" is not used they could also unlock War Elephants with the reform.

- Add Scythian Horse archers, as champions or not, by default or reform, subject to balance.

*If realism is considered and early Persian/Mauryan units are weaker, cheaper and faster to train, this gives them by default a slight economic edge, so they need less bonuses compared to other factions.

Ptolemies

Strong tech, farming, defenses and navy, balanced military.

Reforms:

- Machimoi Reforms: Ptolemies should get a macedonian pikeman for starters. It took them 100 years to start training the egyptian "machimoi". Then the machimoi could be unlocked with a reform as a special champion. Not stronger, but cheaper and faster to train version of pikemen, perhaps slightly weaker as well. And we have one more unique Champion unit.

- Romanization Reforms: Unlocks Thorakites Champion Swordsmen.

Other:
- Could use a Thracian unit, Thracian settler/mercenaries were very common. Aetolians were also very common and are not represented in game. Perhaps a Thyreophorus.

- Civ center training camels and Kushite archers? Greek/Macedonian units make much more sense for a starting and civic army for Ptolemies. See my previous post for more on this.

More coming soon

Edited September 28, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[Prodigal Son]

-The civ centre should produce women and a native melee unit (for gathering resources). Maybe also a scout unit (limited to 1), with auto-scout function (cfr. Rise of Nations).

Barracks should be the main unit recruitment center.

- I don't like the current 'embassies' for carthage: you can build all three buildings which don't fit the general feel of the Carthaginian building set.

I rather have 1 embassy/mercenary building in carthaginian style. Then you can select (like a tech) to send envoys to Italy/Iberia/Gaul (only one of the three). When researched, the building has details of that culture (weapons, shields, ...). You can only build one embassy, but you can cancel your treaty with one nation, and research another place again.

For example: you build the embassy, you select 'treaty with Iberia'. After 60 seconds, your embassy building gets Iberian details (to be defined). Now you can recruit some Iberian units and techs.

You can cancel your treaty with Iberia, and after a cooldown get a treaty with Italy etc...

More or less agreed on the first part.

On the second, if my idea on reorganizing recruitment buildings is rejected, I'm 100% with you.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[Prodigal Son]

Faction Specifics (Trying to make each faction more unique through historical attributes, part 4/4)

Romans

More or less balanced faction with somewhat weak cavalry and focus on infantry, siege, and structures.

Reforms:

- Marian Reforms: Hastati, Triarii, Extraordinarii replaced by (Marian) Legionaries. Then there's a huge number of possible auxiliary units that can be tied to this reform, including Numidian/Gallic/Germanic Cavalry, Syrian/Cretan Archers, War Elephants and more. Equites and Allied horse skirmishers could also be removed by this reform, replaced by new cavalry types.

Other:
- Gladius: Tech increasing infantry swordsman attack speed (and maybe slightly reducing damage, but overall increasing dps)
- Logistics: Barracks or Army camp tech increasing infantry training (and batch training) speed. Their major strength, ability to field and replace big numbers of reliable heavy infantry needs to be represented in game.
- Imported Construction Technology: Tech slightly increasing ship/siege/structure hit points and damage. Simulating their common practice of copying whatever worked well from their enemies. Makes me think of the need for an academy type structure for some factions to hold such upgrades.

Seleucids

Balanced faction focused on military diversity and many available troop choices.

Reforms:

- "Eastern Cavalry Influence" Reform: Replaces Citizen cavalry lancers with Cataphract Champion Cavalry. After campaigning in the east Antiochus the Great rearmed his line cavalry as Cataphracts.

- Romanization Reform: Unlocks Thorakites Champion Swordsmen.

Other:

- Companions/Hetairoi need to be champions, being their most effective unit winning the flank they fought on even at lost battles.

- Other starting champions are Silver Shield Pikemen, Armored Elephants. A silver-shield hypaspist type unit is also possible but might be an overkill.

- Chariots as non-champion, one-rank units. See Mauryan example.

- Cretan Mercenaries were very common, but there's also the Syrian archers. Not sure on that.

- Change Civ Center units:

• Replace Thyreophoros with Pikeman (Not an early unit for the Seleucids, most Greek/Macedonian citizens would serve in the pike phalanx)
• Replace Arabian Skirmisher with Syrian Archer or a Greek/Thracian skirmisher (Not an early nor common unit)
• Replace Cav Skirmisher with Xystophoros Horseman

- "Satrapal Levy" Barracks = Subject people's Troops

• Arabian Skirmisher (although an eastern would be more common)
• Syrian Archer
• Median Horse Skirmisher
• Dahae Horse Archer (could remove as class conflicts with scythed chariot and they shouldn't be very common, unless scythed chariot turns out melee/able to charge as it was in reality)
• Scythed Chariot

- Military Settler Colonies = Settler Troops

• Pikeman (Greek/Macedonian Settler)
• Thracian Rhomphaiophoros
• Xystophoros Horseman (Macedonian/Thessalian Settler - Replaces Hetairos as non-champion)
• Galatian Swordsman, Horseman or Spearman (any could work and quite common)
• Judean Slinger/Thureophoros or Greek Thureophoros

Last but not least, with major proposed changes (some of them might sound too crazy:p):

Spartans
Powerful, limited infantry, reliable missile troops, weak cavalry and defenses
Reforms:

- Cleomenian Reforms: Unlocks the Spartan Pikemen. They should be non-champions imo and finally provide the Spartans with a massable line infantry (see bellow). This reform could also provide a farming bonus.

Other:
- Spartan Hoplite Champions trainable from start, but with a limit (one per house or farm as they owned the land while being full time soldiers). They were an early era force that gave the Spartans the military edge they had. Trainable at the Town Center and Syssition. They could have a fear aura reducing enemy melee attack and/or an inspiration aura for nearby allies. The limit and quite big metal cost, in addition to them being slow-ish should be enough to balance them.

- Perioikoi moved to Barracks, which could be renamed to reflect it trains subject/allied units.
- Replace Agis - who seems less interesting with no aura - with Cleomenes III, Having an aura buffing pikemen.
- Make Skirites champions as they are listed on the editor? Or add Crypteia who could have an ambush attribute (see Iberians).
- Add Cretan archers: they used them quite a bit, had close relation with Crete later on, possibly at city phase to reflect that.
- Helot Slave workers could be added (at the market?), with an extra bonus to farming or overall, and degenerating health. At low health the could rebel and go gaia. Tech could reduce or remove the degeneration, and healers can be used to keep them at high health. Or a huge "Helot suppression aura" for Crypteia, who trained themselves by terrorizing and murdering Helots. Slaves with similar attributes could be added for other factions as well, but with Spartans having an edge here.

That would be all... so far. At last:D

I'm very interested in the gameplay-meets-realism part of the game and RTS design in general, if I can be of any use I guess I can learn simple file edits (I've done so before in RTW) to fix some of the noted bugs and hopefully help implement any desired of my proposed changes. I can now go in detail on any of the proposals as well.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[Prodigal Son]

I successfully removed the leftover techs on Athenian Gymnasion and Spartan Syssition and it works in game. I've found how to commit them. I edited them with wordpad, is that ok? I'm not sure since I believe there are some issues with such files and some text editors.

Edit: Got notepad++, trying to commit them, but I get this error:

Commit failed (details follow):
POST of '/public/!svn/me': 403 Forbidden (http://svn.wildfiregames.com)

Am I doing something wrong or lack some permission?

Edited September 28, 2014 by Prodigal Son

[Lion.Kanzen]

I successfully removed the leftover techs on Athenian Gymnasion and Spartan Syssition and it works in game. I've found how to commit them. I edited them with wordpad, is that ok? I'm not sure since I believe there are some issues with such files and some text editors.

Edit: Got notepad++, trying to commit them, but I get this error:

Commit failed (details follow):

POST of '/public/!svn/me': 403 Forbidden (http://svn.wildfiregames.com)

Am I doing something wrong or lack some permission?

Only Devs can commit , I suggest you make a patch and upload to trac