Ranged Cavalry too strong

[Lion.Kanzen]

Michael did changes about this. So is time to SVN users to test balance changes.

[iNcog]

Oh right, I have SVN too! I'll try to get on it tomorrow evening, european evening that is. ^^

By the way, Skirm cav and archer cav, just ranged cav in general, need to be removed from age 1. Currently you can do this broken strategy which consists of making 8 ranged cav then going to attack and the only way to hold that off is making ranged cav of your own or investing HEAVILY into slower, ranged units (archers and skirms). The problem with investing into slower ranged units is that ranged cav has the range and mobility to keep harassing and picking off units early game. Back home you just continue making villagers normally and you just get a huge, insurmountable lead.

This can be easily changed, imo, by replace age 1 ranged cav with spear or sword cav. you can then rely on the cc for defense, as well as spearmen. it's much less broken than ranged cav which can do LOTS of damage and prevent units from gathering resources through their mere presence. spear and swordcav can still hunt and scout. See this game:

Edited June 3, 2014 by iNcog

[auron2401]

(repost from this thread)

Or you can just do this.

http://i.imgur.com/ZahrAPU.png

Or if you are feeling extreme

http://i.imgur.com/irIDP1c.png

Excuse me for using the celts as an example, but i think what i did there was obvious.

Melee cav instead of skirm cav at the civ centre. so if you want to do skirm cav rushes, you can just fork out a few more bucks in for a quick barracks/stable, but it doesnt remove the possibility of them.

Edited June 9, 2014 by auron2401

[Lion.Kanzen]

Ok I see, may be adjust inn range or speed to reload or missile accuracy and some early defensive features for the village( colony)

[iNcog]

if you just replaced skirm cav with melee cav you'd solve every single problem with a single, simple and elegant solution.

[Lion.Kanzen]

if you just replaced skirm cav with melee cav you'd solve every single problem with a single, simple and elegant solution.

I'm not sure... Because not all faction have melee cavalry.( Sparta)

[iNcog]

Sparta has Allied Greek Cav, which are spear-cav, no? This is what I think would be good to see for every civ: http://i.imgur.com/ZahrAPU.png

The problem with skirm cav being available from age 1 is a design problem, not a stats problem. Any melee unit is at the mercy of skirm-cav. If you make enough skirm cav, you can also pick off ranged units one at a time and trade very cost-effectively. You can also prevent units from gathering resources without getting into CC range. Even if your opponent makes lots of ranged infantry to counter your early game skirm-cav rush, you can just run away and come back to harass 10s later, due to the speed of cavalry.

The design of skirm-cav as a unit is mostly fine; the problem is you can make 8 of them in 1 minute and just go attack and win the game with just 8 cav units. This is because you can make them at the start of the game, from the CC. Even putting them in a rax isn't that great a solution since you can just make the rax with all your starting units and still have enough harvesters to pump out 8 skirm cav really fast. The unit itself is mostly fine, it's just that you shouldn't be able to make them in age 1.

Melee cav have to get in close to do damage, so spear men can deal with them very cost-efficiently. Someone doing a melee cav rush will have to be on top of micro to make the units pay for themselves and spearmen + CC will be enough to defend against 8 expensive units which aren't harvesting early on.

[iNcog]

bump in response to this:

If I understood correctly, the thread is about running a bughunting tournament in svn, where skirm cav already are nerfed (20 attack/40 range instead of 25/44 in a16).

Skirm cav can get lesser stats and they'll still remain a problem so long as you can make them in the first 5 seconds of the game. Mobility, high attack and long range are still there, they're much better than other units for those reasons. You can also make them right off the bat. It doesn't matter if you need to make 10 skirm cav instead of 8 to kill an infantry unit it one shot, that's exactly what that "nerf" does. Ranged cav so early in the game is a design flaw, skirmcav in age 1 needs to be replaced by spearcav or swordscav (melee cav basically) so that you can't hit and run melee infantry and you can also defend yourself using the civic center. You can still hunt with melee cav and also scout, so this is a very simple solution and it instantly solves every single problem that skirmcav poses.

Skirmcav themselves also need to be reworked; even in age 2 when you don't get rushed, they're just the best units overall. They have high damage, long range and insane mobility. You can get so much value out of skirmcav it isn't funny. I would propose something more along the lines of making skirmcav specialized units. Give them lower attack and a strong multiplier against certain unit types, siege engines and support units for example. Skirmcav also need a >ranged< counter; I think skirms fit that role quite well.

[odalman]

Firstly, ranged units could have their attack strength decrease towards 0 with distance, so they would have to come closer to be effective. That would simulate missile inaccuracy, but without introducing randomness.

Secondly, missiles could have a cost. For example 1 wood.

[sanderd17]

Firstly, ranged units could have their attack strength decrease towards 0 with distance, so they would have to come closer to be effective. That would simulate missile inaccuracy, but without introducing randomness.

Secondly, missiles could have a cost. For example 1 wood.

We have missile accuracy with pseudo randomness and a distance precision term.

As for the cost per missile, not good as long they're very trigger happy.

[iNcog]

Firstly, ranged units could have their attack strength decrease towards 0 with distance, so they would have to come closer to be effective. That would simulate missile inaccuracy, but without introducing randomness.

Secondly, missiles could have a cost. For example 1 wood.

Missile inaccuracy already exists in the game and it's an indirect buff to melee units which I find interesting.

What you're talking about is a fairly roundabout way of fixing a problem that doesn't even exist. It's not that ranged units are too strong, it's that one ranged unit in particular is too strong.

[av93]

Maybe this is solved a little bit giving bonus to buildings against cav skrimishers?

[auron2401]

That won't even come close to solving the problem.

The only building you have at the start that can shoot at skirmcav is your civ centre. Anyone who can micro decently can stay well out of the range of a civ centre, whilst still damaging your early game economy significantly.

So essentially, it's like increasing taxes for persons who are exempt from paying taxes.

Edited June 20, 2014 by auron2401

[Sanguivorant]

I'm really starting to hate ranged cavalry.

Games are now a competition to see who can get ranged cavalry the quickest. You barely need to micromanage these guys because they already move away from melee units.

Their range is unbearably large, to the point where they could take out my farms with relative ease. I even placed towers, and they do almost nothing, because they can get away in time. How can I do anything when I can't even gather food? And how can a few javelin throws destroy a farm?

Spearmen are crap against them because they move slowly. The only melee unit that is good against them are the Spartan swordsmen when massed up and micro'ed efficiently. And even they are only buildable in the town phase, well after a ranged cavalry rush is executed.

I believe that if their range was drastically lowered in the village phase, they would not be able to cause such a problem, because that is their greatest advantage. Either that, or make them untrainable until the town phase.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Sanguivorant

[GoHsty]

Like mentioned in the post before, I'd remove the "automatic kiting" of the ranged units.

Another thing I'd like to have implemented is that ranged units have much lower attack damage if they are fighting units within the melee range. These changes would make the Skirmish Kav very unefficient if they are catched by melee units when the player didnt pay attention.

Another issue I noticed: For example the athenian spearmen (or however they are called ) have like 115 HP at rank 3, whereas the Skirmish Kav has like 150 HP I think. This is pretty unbalanced in my opinion, because the spearman has much heavier armor + a big shield, whereas the skirmish kav just has a light armor. Also the spearman is melee, thereby should have better defensive stats.

TL;DR:

• Remove automatic kiting
• Ranged units should have lower attack damage fighting in melee range
• Lower the HP of the Skirmish Kav

[Lion.Kanzen]

Agree but disagree with kitting. That don't make the rush less effective.

[Radagast.]

Games are now a competition to see who can get ranged cavalry the quickest. You barely need to micromanage these guys because they already move away from melee units

Not sure what you guys think but I was laughed at when I proposed to not only have arrows miss targets (what we already have) but also arrows doing no to almost no damage if too far away (as it was in reality, e.g. tanks couldn't do any damage to each if too far away, thus e.g. German tanks had to come pretty close to Russian tanks to do any damage. They even had to circle around Russian T34 tanks to do any damage at all, quite a risky manoevre.).

Same for arrows. If the archers are far away, then there was enough time to shield wall against those arrows. Also the armour mostly could deal with arrows shot from far away if it was not the English longbow. Anyway, it had tactical significance if units were placed infront of your melee as the distance to the enemy was reduced, which was decisive if the enemy didn't come up with something.

In general arrows were harassing and frightening enemy approaches, mainly lowering enemy morale + slowing down their advances. You couldn't win, i.e. put out a significant enough number of enemies only with arrow fire.

A battle mostly was won when 20% of the enemy was dead. Then one side panicked and you know what happened in the following pursuit.

Even the English longbow was most significant if used to drive the enemy into your melee formations.

We definitely should avoid creating artificial balancing fixes llike increasing building fire range if countering a certain enemy unit which is 100% unrealistic: Or can a cannon shoot farther only because it's a different enemy unit type?

I don't understand 0AD philosophy, on one hand it's being called for historical accuracy as major goal. On the other hand you are told it is no simulation and thus must not be historical accurate.

[GoHsty]

Agree but disagree with kitting. That don't make the rush less effective.

But if you dont remove the automatic kiting, the changes to lower the attack damage in melee fights wouldnt make sense, because the kav would never get into those fights..

EDIT: I'm also not just talking about the early skirmish kav rush, I'm talking about the unit in general

Edited June 21, 2014 by GoHsty

[Lion.Kanzen]

But if you dont remove the automatic kiting, the changes to lower the attack damage in melee fights wouldnt make sense, because the kav would never get into those fights..

EDIT: I'm also not just talking about the early skirmish kav rush, I'm talking about the unit in general

This for Ai can be easy , but we aren't talking only for Ai. Human is not difficult uses kitting. See the video posted by Incong

[iNcog]

Automatic kiting isn't that big a problem, in that skirmcav will often move to dumb areas when they kite. They'll target one spearman and move to the side, closer to enemy units instead of moving away from enemy units. Skirmcav are fairly dumb when it comes to taking into account more than one unit which is why I don't think it's a problem that skirmcav move back by themselves when attacking a unit; you still have to babysit skirmcav when you're doing hit and run with them so that aspect is mostly fine. It's actually better that you need to micro your units. (:

I often repeat myself, but whatever, I'll say it again. The problem with skirmcav is two-fold. On one hand, the unit itself poses a problem. On the other, they're "tech" units which are available far too early in the game in comparison to what they're capable of doing.

The unit itself:

The biggest problem with skirmcav is that they're fast and have long range. This means that these units can position themselves in a way that they inflict damage on other units, while taking minimal damage in return. By nature, skirmcav will always soft-counter every slow melee unit. In itself, this is not a problem, so long as every civ has an answer to this unit. By nature, you want the counter to skirmcav to be another ranged unit. In this manner, it will be difficult for skirmcav to inflict damage without taking damage in return. This problem will be even worse once our lovely devs fix pathfinding and lag issues so that units are even more responsive.

The most ideal solution I can think of, on paper, is making skirmcav short-ranged units and giving skirmishers a bonus against skirmcav. Skirmcav themselves get a bonus against siege engines and support units, but nothing else. What happens if skirmcav get the following change?

- Skirmishers become an effective counter against skirmcav. This won't make skirmcav useless. It just means that skirmcav will be forced to be more careful when and where they engage. Skirmcav still have the speed which allows them to engage and disengage quite easily.

- Skirmcav retain the ability to kite any melee unit.

- Skirmcav retain the ability to harass without actually engaging.

- Skirmcav will be "soft" countered by archers since archers will be able to attack skirmcav before skirmcav come into range to engage archers.

- Skirmcav get a specialized role where they're ideal units to take out siege engines. They can use their speed to get in quickly, they can use their range to take out siege engines. They have the speed to potentially avoid skirmishers and spearmen.

So skirmcav become this unit which is very good in some situations but not as good in others. This gives a "role" to skirmcav and a place in the game. As of right now, skirmcav are the jack of all trades. They can do anything and everything. Anything another unit can do, skirmcav can do better. ^^

Skirmcav in tech trees:

This is an issue which is 100% also needing to be looked at. Imagine for a second that we get the skirmcav I described in the first part. The skirmcav rush will still be a very strong rush. This is because you can still get 8 skirmcav 3 minutes into the game. Skirmcav will still be able to kite melee units, they'll still be able to stay out of CC range and they'll still be able to kill villagers very easily. They still have their speed, even if they're more short ranged. Even if skirms now "counter" skirmcav, skirmcav still have the ability to harass the other player while developing his own economy very safely.

By design, having a fast & ranged unit so early in the game is a problem in that its inherent abilities are much better than other units. If it's just fast, it's not a problem. If it's just ranged, it's not a problem either. But if it's both, well, it has a decisive edge against other units. This edge is very clear as of right now, where everyone makes skirmcav and that's it. Even if their stats were half as good as they are right now, it would only mean that they would take out other units in twice the time.

The real fix isn't in stats or changing the unit itself. It's changing when the unit becomes available. If you can't build skirmcav until age 2 for example, then the other player has more than enough time to develop a force capable of dealing with skirmcav.

It's really as simple as that. We still need a flexible early game unit which is capable of scouting and hunting though, so it's better to replace the skirmcav in age 1 with melee cav. It's a simple, easy fix:

- Melee cav can still hunt. If needed, perhaps melee cav can be given a small bow for hunting, but this bow wouldn't be used when fighting other units. Not sure how difficult this to implement, this is just a small, cute suggestion.

- Melee cav cav still scount.

- Melee cav can be dealt with melee infantry (spearmen).

- Villagers can be protected from melee cav by the civic center.

- Melee cav can still harass and kill villagers or units which are out of position. It becomes a battle between two players, the raiding cav player is looking for units out of position, the defending player is looking to make sure that his units are all covered.

[Radagast.]

Melee cav can still hunt. If needed, perhaps melee cav can be given a small bow for hunting, but this bow wouldn't be used when fighting other units. Not sure how difficult this to implement, this is just a small, cute suggestion.

It's possible and we'd love to get secondary weapons in.

Currently it'd be only possible to have two melee weapons if we subdivided the melee animations into

- attack_melee_sword,

- attack_melee_spear,

- ...

Then we could make the animations switch props, e.g. if attack_melee_sword command is given, then your units will play this animation and the props connected with this animation (in the actor.xml file) would be:

- sword attached to prop point right hand (e.g.)

- spear attached to prop point back (have it stored in the inventory so to say)

- shield attached to prop point left hand.

If attack_melee_spear was given as attack command, then:

- sword attached to prop point left_of_belly (if we have art resources + time, then we could even attach a different prop, i.e. not the blank sword, but a nice looking envelop)

- spear attached to prop point right hand

- shield attach to prop point back

The inventory in this case would come as side effect: Each prop point would be capable of bearing something. Thus we could have keys attached to the belt. If we wanted to visualize inventory at some time, then we could use prop points. (using arrows you could even attack the keys attached to the belt using Sander's prop turret changes!)

All that is already possible without changes for attack_melee and attack_ranged (and we could change the prop configuration for those depending on animation playing).

Therefore the secondary bow should be doable.

---

As for the tech I think we could add a tech that replaces the bows with higher quality ones.(the skirmcav initial bows could be very bad range)

[Radagast.]

I forgot one note: Templates

Those are the main issue as the attack values are stored in the unit type template. For secondary weapons to actually have an effect, the attack needed to be specified in the weapon template.

For this to work, the fighting system needed to examine which weapon is at the left + right hand prop points.

If there is a shield -> increase armour value.

If there is a weapon -> increase attack value (additionally to base attack which is if using the fist + gloves).

[iNcog]

By the way, how is armor calcuted?

[sanderd17]

For every attack type (pierce, hack and crush)

AttackValue * (0.9 ^ ArmourValue)

The percentage you find in the gui is the precalculated (0.9 ^ ArmourValue). So it's literally the percentage of the attack that comes through.

And it's summed for all attack types.

[iNcog]

So imagine a unit with a pierce armor of 5

I do a pierce attack of 20

so the damage the unit takes is:

20*(0.9^5) = 11.8 ?