Sounds to create

[LAVS]

Hi Team, thanks for your feedback. I gathered all your comments above and will continue working on this. I'll be back to you soon with news.

Edited December 18, 2013 by LAVS

[Sighvatr]

I think ambient battle sounds should only be played when there is a number of infantry and cavalry engaged. Otherwise the sound will not fit in a situation such as archers versus archers. I also suggest taking out the additional weapon sounds from the ambience and only apply the sounds of weapons from the units themselves.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Sighvatr

[LAVS]

Isn't that an argument for replacing them with more intense/multiple "hits in one sound" though? That they will "get lost" among the battle sounds. Either way, the main argument for me is that currently it's very annoying to hear a ton of the same sound being played at the same time, it doesn't sound good, and while it certainly gives a sense of chaos it's more of chaos in the "I don't want to listen to this" way than "this sounds like a battle" way

Hi Feneur, could you please share further details about the 'doesn't sounds good', I would like to apply your feedback concretely and, as I say when sharing the draft, this is a whole sound battle, it's kind of obvious that all this will not be working at the same time. Furthermore, I have received pretty good feedback about the design.

[LAVS]

Team, in order to make this more efficient, and make the battle sounds accurate, varied, and rich, we have to decide a few things before going any further:

1.- I will create from the draft the following ambience loops:

"Small Battle Sound" for severity = 2

"Large Battle Sound" for sevetity = 3

"Larger Battle Sound" for severity = 4

2.- Loops will include less units weapons sounds

3.- We prefer 10 variations for each "small", "Large" and "Larger" battle sounds

Thanks in advance for your confirmation. If you have further suggestions, please, kindly use the same structure when replying (1.-; 2.-; 3.-; etc.). Also, if you want me to improve or change something in the battle sounds do your best to be as descriptive as possible . Bear in mind that 'good ' or 'bad' doesn't say much and it's pretty subjective.

Thanks!

Matias

[feneur]

Hi Feneur, could you please share further details about the 'doesn't sounds good', I would like to apply your feedback concretely and, as I say when sharing the draft, this is a whole sound battle, it's kind of obvious that all this will not be working at the same time. Furthermore, I have received pretty good feedback about the design.

Hmm, not sure exactly how to phrase it, perhaps one could say it sounds a bit "echo-y" The same sound being played almost at the same time, but not exactly, just makes it sound weird. I'm not sure how to describe it.

[LAVS]

H Feneur, thanks, I'm working on the next version having in mind this! Just checking how much action we were expecting to have in the battles sounds.

[Mythos_Ruler]

I think we could leave the "sword clang" sounds to the individual units. But for a "battle loop" we could have the general "cheering and grunting" and vocal cacophony.

[Yves]

I think using only individual sounds and not a generic "battle loop" gives a better result in the end and should be the way to go.

I would prefer that approach because context sensitive sound in battles make them much more epic than a generic battle track.

You should hear it when a horde of elephants charges into battle and you should hear less sword "clang's" when only two or three units with swords are in battle but much more arrow "wuuush's" when you have a big battalion of archers.

With generic battle sounds played in loops it will also require a lot of care to make it at least a bit context sensitive but we will always be limited at a certain level. To make the sounds more rich, we need more variation per type of sound like "sword clang" and also more types and more events when they are triggered. A good result is only possible when the implementation and the sounds work well together.

I hope Steven (stwf) comes back, he could help with the implementation side.

EDIT: I've sent a PM to Steven and told him about this thread.

[sanderd17]

Erik, also, for the echos you hear. Maybe we should experiment with flushing them all per turn. So you don't get the difference in ms that the JS code gives you when selecting multiple units f.e.. But it's saved, and played all together the next turn. Either with very little time in between (as it's all in a single C++ loop, without JS calls involved). Or even grouped per sound type, and only played once with adapted volume.

As a turn only takes 200ms. It shouldn't be that noticeable. Given the speed of sound, a 200ms delay is what you get in real life when you stand on a distance of 70m.

[LAVS]

Hi team, there is great feedback here. I think we should plan the battle sounds feature. It's possible to implement FMOD in Pyrogenesis? Working with this middleware would expand the posibilities in a quite interesting level, and it's useful to take advange of sound in situations like this one.

I'm gathering all your feedback and working on a possible implementation.

[LAVS]

Hi team, I have the draft for 'phase_reach' sounds ready. I would like to have different sounds for each civilization (Iberos still missing).
Please take a look and confirm if you like the idea. Focus your feedback bearing in mind that these sounds are still a draft. If everybody like it, I will be sharing the final version soon:

http://goo.gl/tjjURE

Look forward to your comments!

Edited December 29, 2013 by LAVS

[Lion.Kanzen]

All are very great. congratulations this the best of your work. but yhe problem with some is the compatibly with all other sounds before.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I will change the file of Lavs to game correct format OGG but i need know what proprieties have the file.

What is the sample of the sounds in the game?

Edited December 29, 2013 by Lion.Kanzen

[feneur]

(Personally I would have preferred to have just one sound for reaching phase 1, and one for reaching phase 2, for all civs. Having one of each for each civilization makes it harder to actually know/recognize what they mean - you have to relearn it for each civilization. But the consensus previously seems to be that we should do things uniquely for the different civs as often as possible, so I'll not argue, just mention how I feel.)

I see there are two sounds for each civ, are they meant to be one for each phase or just two alternatives and one would be used both for reaching phase 1 and 2? To me they aren't different enough to be one for each phase, so I'm assuming they're just different alternatives. In general I would say they are pretty good, and as far as I can tell fitting their civs reasonably well. I would like to hear Omri's opinion (I'll send him an email pointing him to this thread) as they are essentially music, so it would be nice to hear what he thinks.

[Lion.Kanzen]

(Personally I would have preferred to have just one sound for reaching phase 1, and one for reaching phase 2, for all civs. Having one of each for each civilization makes it harder to actually know/recognize what they mean - you have to relearn it for each civilization. But the consensus previously seems to be that we should do things uniquely for the different civs as often as possible, so I'll not argue, just mention how I feel.)

I see there are two sounds for each civ, are they meant to be one for each phase or just two alternatives and one would be used both for reaching phase 1 and 2? To me they aren't different enough to be one for each phase, so I'm assuming they're just different alternatives. In general I would say they are pretty good, and as far as I can tell fitting their civs reasonably well. I would like to hear Omri's opinion (I'll send him an email pointing him to this thread) as they are essentially music, so it would be nice to hear what he thinks.

I was test the Macedonian ( it's most neutral, the roman can be most Roman as Roman fan I say can be more with a trumpet.) I was open a ticket with this one. In order to test with all sounds. I can will convert all sounds to ogg.

[Mythos_Ruler]

I like the direction. I also like how the 1st Mauryan one sounds like it has cheering. I know it's not cheering, but it sounds like it. I think we need to add more cheering and epic things like that to our sounds. And upgrading your settlement is a big milestone in the progress of a match. So is victory.

For simplicity's sake, there should probably just be 1 sound for all the civs, unless a programmer wants to create an alternative method of choosing sfx for techs. Perhaps with a "civ" tag, consistent with other parts of the code, including with the specificName line in tech json files. If that can easily be done, then a different sound for each civ would be wonderful. The beginning with the drums brings a consistency to each sound that it should not take that much to understand what it means from civ to civ. Rise&Fall:Civilizations At War had a similar thing. Perhaps work with Omri (the music producer) in incorporating some instrumentation that he uses for each civ.

Lastly, if we're going to extend tech sounds to include "civ" specific sounds, then we should go ahead and extend it further to perhaps add a pauseMusic: "true" element or tag to it too, so that the music is paused while the phase tech sound is played. We want to drive it home that you are progressing your settlement.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I like the direction. I also like how the 1st Mauryan one sounds like it has cheering. I know it's not cheering, but it sounds like it. I think we need to add more cheering and epic things like that to our sounds. And upgrading your settlement is a big milestone in the progress of a match. So is victory.

For simplicity's sake, there should probably just be 1 sound for all the civs, unless a programmer wants to create an alternative method of choosing sfx for techs. Perhaps with a "civ" tag, consistent with other parts of the code, including with the specificName line in tech json files. If that can easily be done, then a different sound for each civ would be wonderful. The beginning with the drums brings a consistency to each sound that it should not take that much to understand what it means from civ to civ. Rise&Fall:Civilizations At War had a similar thing. Perhaps work with Omri (the music producer) in incorporating some instrumentation that he uses for each civ.

Lastly, if we're going to extend tech sounds to include "civ" specific sounds, then we should go ahead and extend it further to perhaps add a pauseMusic: "true" element or tag to it too, so that the music is paused while the phase tech sound is played. We want to drive it home that you are progressing your settlement.

yeah, need feels a more realism more Total War and Old School games.

It's highly need LAVS work with Omri.

The souns are good but not enoght for this one. I feel some casual or modern style in few of them.

[OmriLahav]

OK, thanks for the pointer, here are my two cents:

I agree that some of the sounds are a little too modern (especially that high synth-bell-like sound).

It can be nice to have one, easily recognizable melody for it, and just have it played on different instruments for the different civs.

Personally, I like that you used a percussion swell before the melody, makes it stand out.

Pausing the music may be a little intrusive in terms of continuity, but the music can certainly be dimmed for the duration of the sound, for emphasis.

If you like, send me the percussion swell you made and I'll record a nice, uniform melody on it with the instruments I used in the score:

The Spanish guitar for Iberia, the treble / bass tin whistles for Gaul / Celtica, the bouzouki for the Athenian factions, the mandolin for the Romans, the duduk for Carthage, the fretless guitar for the Mauryans, the oud for Egypt and the Saaz for Persia.

Then for phase 2 reach I can orchestrate the melody, or add a second percussion swell on the end of the effect, or maybe record some other gratifying sound, like chimes or a harp glissando.

On another note, I do agree with Michael - cheering would be a great addition to these SFX

Omri

EDIT: I just now saw that LAVS did send a message to me asking for my opinion, I just didn't get the notification and failed to notice it until now... Sorry.

[LAVS]

Hi team, thanks for your feedback. I'll be back to the studio by 2nd to keep working on this. Omri: thank you, I'll be in touch with you.

Have a happy new year's eve!

[Lion.Kanzen]

Hi team, thanks for your feedback. I'll be back to the studio by 2nd to keep working on this. Omri: thank you, I'll be in touch with you.

Have a happy new year's eve!

happy new year to you , it's good work that you're doing. I test it in game sounds good.

Pod rosa granary distinct as voices de foro.?

[LAVS]

Hi team, I have just sent the perc sound to Omri. After he create the melodies I will add some cheering to the sounds.

Thanks!

[OmriLahav]

I have received the files, I'll probably get to recording on Sunday!

I'll try to keep a simple, easily recognizable melody, and simply change the instruments playing it to match the various civs.

I'm also aiming for a small, phase I effect, and a larger phase II effect.

If you think of anything else I should be aware of, let me know

[Romulus]

Actually whilst I'm on this subject, I should point out that I can make sounds and will be for the Romans.

I have horse sounds, (moving) galloping etc. And pilum in flight sounds plus impact sounds which I need to brush up a little. They very cool.

[OmriLahav]

Well, after messing around with a whole bunch of short motifs I've decided to ask - how important it is to use the same melody for all the civs?

The instruments and musical styles are very different, and while it is (of course) possible, sometimes it just doesn't sound natural.

For instance, the motif I originally thought of sounded great on tin whistles, Spanish guitar, mandolin and even bouzouki, but was completely "lost in translation" to the oud, saz and fretless guitar.

That said, I'll keep searching for a motif that works all around.

Omri

[stwf]

Hello All,

Sorry for my prolonged absence. I'l be getting back into the programming thing in the new year. Its good to hear all of this oniterest in the sound stuff. I'll try and explain some thing as easily as I can. I'll also be writing up a short description of how the sound stuff works. Some of it is counterintuitive but it explains a lot of why we do things the way we do.

I would think it's best if it replaces some/most of the existing fight sounds when there is a large fight, something along the lines of this old idea for the sound system: http://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Intensity_%26_Priority I don't know how much/if anything of that is implemented in the sound system, we'd have to ask Stephen about that, but I definitely think that having ambient battle sounds + attack sounds for all units + battle music would be too much. Having something like this would be great though, and more of it for more units. Or more damage dealt, but imho if it's possible to have it be per the amount of units fighting rather than the damage dealt would be nice as many units fighting would make a lot of noise even if not a lot of damage is dealt. While on the other hand even a couple of siege engines might deal a lot of damage, but shouldn't cause as much battle sounds imho On the other hand I'm not sure how often such a situation should occur though as it would be suicide to send in just siege engines without any protection

Team, in order to make this more efficient, and make the battle sounds accurate, varied, and rich, we have to decide a few things before going any further:

1.- I will create from the draft the following ambience loops:

"Small Battle Sound" for severity = 2

"Large Battle Sound" for sevetity = 3

"Larger Battle Sound" for severity = 4

2.- Loops will include less units weapons sounds

3.- We prefer 10 variations for each "small", "Large" and "Larger" battle sounds

Thanks in advance for your confirmation. If you have further suggestions, please, kindly use the same structure when replying (1.-; 2.-; 3.-; etc.). Also, if you want me to improve or change something in the battle sounds do your best to be as descriptive as possible . Bear in mind that 'good ' or 'bad' doesn't say much and it's pretty subjective.

Thanks!

Matias

Currently the sound system will locate a sound source so when listening in stereo sounds from the righ of the screen come out of tthe right speaker. My issue with the battle intensity sounds is that this would largely eliminate that. and I think it would be bad.

I believe if we had formations, and could easily locate a group of fighters to one area, it would then make sense to have one sound for 10 archers firing instead of playing 10 singe arrow shots at one time. But otherwise we lose a lot unless we introduce some complicated method of grouping and locating similar fighters. Of course we need to be very careful not to do anything that takes too long. This code would need to be executed every frame. I have always worked to keep the computation time to a minimum there.

Also note that the current code does alter the pitch, volume and frequency for most sounds randomly. This is in addition to the 10 or sos sounds there are for a sword clank. These also get used in a random order and have their volumes and pitches altered randomly.

I think it is important to remember this is a game. The sounds should first serve the game, making sure to alert the player of important events, and not serve to confuse them with too many sounds. It would be nice if in addition to that everything sounded like a hollywood movie battle scene, but playability should come first.

Please feel free to ask any questions. I'll try to be in IRC more too. Let me know if there is a good time and I can try to be online.