Old Irish

[akerbeltz]

GunChleoc mentioned that there was some agreement over using Old Irish for one of the ethnicities but I can't remember if that was Celts or Gauls (I'm a fairly new to this forum) and since I can't find a specific thread, I opened a new one.

I've asked a colleague to help with the old Irish - mine is pretty ropey but he's an expert. So at the moment the minimal set is as follows:

What is it? Coté? My lord? A thigerna? I will walk Rega I will go out against Rega @#$% I will build Con·utsa I will work land Trebfa I will gather together Tecalfa I will herd Bia oc ingaire I will fish Ad·cichlus I will attack! Do·fius I will repair Lesaigfer I will hunt Do·sifius I will heal Ícfea I will march! Cichsea I will retreat! Teichfea Battle cry In comram beós! I will garrison Géba dúnad

Most are fairly straightforward (though somewhat hypothetical as not many first person future forms have been recorded).

The battle cry broadly translates as on "with the combat, let's keep at it, who's next"

Thoughts welcome but if that's a go, I'll see about recording these.

[Pureon]

I'm not sure if both Celt factions will use Old Irish, I'm not even sure where Old Irish was agreed to, but for reference on what phrases are required see:

http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=449&p=257410

[greycat]

GunChleoc mentioned that there was some agreement over using Old Irish for one of the ethnicities but I can't remember if that was Celts or Gauls (I'm a fairly new to this forum) and since I can't find a specific thread, I opened a new one.

I've asked a colleague to help with the old Irish - mine is pretty ropey but he's an expert. So at the moment the minimal set is as follows:

What is it? Coté? My lord? A thigerna? I will walk Rega I will go out against Rega @#$% I will build Con·utsa I will work land Trebfa I will gather together Tecalfa I will herd Bia oc ingaire I will fish Ad·cichlus I will attack! Do·fius I will repair Lesaigfer I will hunt Do·sifius I will heal Ícfea I will march! Cichsea I will retreat! Teichfea Battle cry In comram beós! I will garrison Géba dúnad

Most are fairly straightforward (though somewhat hypothetical as not many first person future forms have been recorded).

The battle cry broadly translates as on "with the combat, let's keep at it, who's next"

Thoughts welcome but if that's a go, I'll see about recording these.

Old Irish(sometimes called old Gaelic)was used 6th century–10th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Irish

[Lion.Kanzen]

But if is most ancient that we can use.

[greycat]

But if is most ancient that we can use.

This may help.

Old Celtic

http://www.univie.ac.at/indogermanistik/download/Stifter/oldcelt2008_2_lepontic.pdf

Common Celtic(proto celtic)

http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/CelticLanguages/ProtoCelticEnglishWordlist.pdf

Celtic Lexicon

http://www.wales.ac.uk/en/CentreforAdvancedWelshCelticStudies/ResearchProjects/CompletedProjects/TheCelticLanguagesandCulturalIdentity/CelticLexicon.aspx

Edited October 18, 2013 by greycat

[GunChleoc]

Old Irish is the oldest form of Goidelic that we have good evidence for, so it could be used for the Britons.

We could then go for the Brythonic branch for the Gauls, unless we find someone who can reconstruct enough continental Celtic for these phrases?

I'm not sure if both Celt factions will use Old Irish, I'm not even sure where Old Irish was agreed to, but for reference on what phrases are required see:

http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=449&p=257410

Akerbeltz has been working off that list

He's a linguist, lexicographer and translator, so you can be sure he will take grammar and pronunciation into consideration and not just the vocabulary with everything he posts

Here is the list with proper formatting and necessary word censor cheat

• What is it? Coté?
• My lord? A thigerna?
• I will walk Rega
• I will go out against Rega ass
• I will build Con·utsa
• I will work land Trebfa
• I will gather together Tecalfa
• I will herd Bia oc ingaire
• I will fish Ad·cichlus
• I will attack! Do·fius
• I will repair Lesaigfer
• I will hunt Do·sifius
• I will heal Ícfea
• I will march! Cichsea
• I will retreat! Teichfea
• Battle cry In comram beós!
• I will garrison Géba dúnad

Edited October 13, 2013 by GunChleoc

[akerbeltz]

Well if they're specifically Britons then someone should probably procure Brythonic rather than Old Irish but I don't have any contacts for that.

How are the Britons identifiable i.e. will they be geographically on mainland Britain or will it just involve a generally insular Celtic appearance of units and buildings? If so, could they be switched to being Hibernians (i.e. ancient Irish, for which Old Irish would be fine)? A lot of P-Celts, if there's Gauls AND Britons.

[greycat]

Is this usefull?

The Proto-Celtic language, also called Common Celtic, is the reconstructed ancestor language of all the known Celtic languages. Its lexis can be confidently reconstructed on the basis of the comparative method of historical linguistics. Proto-Celtic is a branch of the Western Indo-European languages, with the other branches Italic languages, Germanic languages and the Balto-Slavic group. The exact relationships between these branches are under discussion. The earliest archaeological culture that may justifiably be considered as Proto-Celtic is the Late Bronze Age Urnfield culture of central Europe from the last quarter of the second millennium BC. By the Iron Age Hallstatt culture of around 800 BC these people had become fully Celtic.

The reconstruction of Proto-Celtic is currently being undertaken. While Continental Celtic presents much substantiation for phonology, and some for morphology, recorded material is still too scanty to allow a secure reconstruction of syntax. Although some complete sentences are recorded in Gaulish and Celtiberian, the oldest substantial Celtic literature is found in Old Irish, the earliest recorded of the Insular Celtic languages.

Proto-Celtic to English word list

http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/CelticLanguages/ProtoCelticEnglishWordlist.pdf

Edited October 25, 2013 by greycat

[akerbeltz]

Hm. No. Allowing for some flexibility, Proto-Celtic is the common ancestor of Gaulish AND Brythonic and Goidelic. So from a temporal point of view, you can't have Proto-Celtic contemporary with Gaulish. It would be like having Indo-European alongside Ancient Greek.

That aside, experts in Proto-Celtic are rare and finding one willing to contribute will be ... daunting.

[greycat]

OK... I just learned this. Gaelic is not the same as Gallic

Gaelic of or relating to the Goidelic languages, particularly the Celtic language of Scotland, and the culture associated with speakers of these languages and their descendants.

Gallic or of or relating to the Gauls an area around France and surrounding areas.

The Celts came from area around modern day Germany, Austria and Switzerland. Ireland was the last bastion of the Celts.

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/

Edited October 16, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

"Some people [...] think the term should refer to one's genetic heritage: if your ancestors were "Celtic", then that makes you a "Celt". But this simply begs for a further definition: how do you know your ancestors were "Celtic"? Because they came from Ireland or Scotland or Wales or one of the other countries that are thought of as "Celtic" today? All this says is that you are of Irish or Scottish or Welsh descent i.e., that some of your ancestors were born on the geographical territories bearing those names"

http://www.celticheritage.co.uk/guests_AKCeltic.cfm

Edited October 16, 2013 by greycat

[GunChleoc]

The progression is this:

Indo-European -> Celtic

Celtic -> Continental Celtic, Insular Geltic

Continental Celtic -> Gallic, Lepontic ...

Insular Celtic -> Brythonic, Goidelic

Brythonic -> Welsh, Breton etc

Goidelic -> Irish, Scottish Gaelic etc.

[greycat]

We have to be in the correct time period though...notice underlined text when reading. My source are from a museum in Germany.

b Caesar, de Bello Gallico, lib. vi. c. 17. The Germans derived their origin from Tuisto, apparently the same being as the Celtic Dis or Tis. Tacitus, de Mor Germanorum

source:The Scotish Gaël

http://books.google.com/books?id=n0MDAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Rhine issues from the Celtic Alps, a little outside of Rhaetia, and proceeding westward, bounds Gaul and its inhabitants on the left, and the Germans on the right, and finally empties into the ocean. This river has always down to the present time been considered the boundary, ever since these tribes gained their different names; for very anciently both peoples dwelling on either side of the river were called Celts.

Source: Roman History, 39: http://lexundria.com/dio/39/cy

The original Celtic homeland was an area of Austria, near southern Germany. From here they expanded over much of continental Europe and Britain.

From the 3rd century BC large, town-like settlements were established, known as “oppida”. Gaius Julius Caesar came into contact with them during the Gallic War from 58 to 51/50 BC. During the Roman expansion in the 1st century BC, the typical Celtic remains and finds gradually disappeared; the population here gradually adapted to the customs of the new rulers. In the southeast of the British Isles a few objects in the style of the continental Celts are to be found, but since even ancient authors did not describe the Britons as Celts, their inclusion among them is very questionable.

source: Keltenwelt am Glauberg | Museum http://www.keltenwelt-glauberg.de/en/research-centre/the-glauberg/

Edited October 18, 2013 by greycat

[GunChleoc]

Well, the ancient authors weren't modern historical linguists. It is a fairly recent discovery that the Celtic languages belong to the Indo-European family, so how would the Romans have known?

There wasn't "one" Celtic people anyway, they consisted of diverse nations and were spread quite far, e.g. the Galatians mentioned in the Bible were Celts as well.

To draw a modern parallel, I think everybody would agree that there's some difference in culture between Portugal, Spain, France, Italy and Romania? They all speak Romance languages.

[greycat]

There wasn't "one" Celtic people anyway, they consisted of diverse nations and were spread quite far, e.g. the Galatians mentioned in the Bible were Celts as well.

Yes. but they were not nations. Modern people are too attached to national identity i.m.o.

Edited October 18, 2013 by greycat

[GunChleoc]

You're right. I only used that term because I coudn't think of the correct one.

[SDM]

Maybe peoples would describe them better.

[greycat]

According to anthropological research.The Welsh, Irish and other peoples who regard themselves as Celtic cousins are in fact ancient Bretons who include the original English peoples. The Breton language is also distantly related to Irish, Manx and Scottish Gaelic.

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/breton.htm

Maybe peoples would describe them better.

The word Nation does work but it usually comes with a dual meaning which I like to avoid.

Edited October 25, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

So the Celts that arrived would have spoken Gaulish while the indigenous people would have spoken Breton which distantly related to Irish, Manx and Scottish Gaelic.

The Gaulish language is an extinct Celtic language that was spoken in parts of France and the Swiss Rhine area in the Roman period.

Edited October 25, 2013 by greycat

[Lion.Kanzen]

Do you play the game gray cat?

[greycat]

Yes. It is very early stage though.

[greycat]

edit

Edited October 30, 2013 by greycat

[greycat]

If you want to use old Irish to make the game more fun, this is fine. I just wanted to explain this is not historically accurate.

Edited October 25, 2013 by greycat

[Lion.Kanzen]

Is impossible be 100% accurate, so, where we find the Gaulish words that we need? See Iberians and Carthaginians too.

[greycat]

Is impossible be 100% accurate, so, where we find the Gaulish words that we need? See Iberians and Carthaginians too.

I need to do more research into this but it seems to be closer to Latin than the modern Celtic language are...