akerbeltz Posted October 12, 2013 Report Share Posted October 12, 2013 GunChleoc mentioned that there was some agreement over using Old Irish for one of the ethnicities but I can't remember if that was Celts or Gauls (I'm a fairly new to this forum) and since I can't find a specific thread, I opened a new one.I've asked a colleague to help with the old Irish - mine is pretty ropey but he's an expert. So at the moment the minimal set is as follows: What is it? Coté? My lord? A thigerna? I will walk Rega I will go out against Rega @#$% I will build Con·utsa I will work land Trebfa I will gather together Tecalfa I will herd Bia oc ingaire I will fish Ad·cichlus I will attack! Do·fius I will repair Lesaigfer I will hunt Do·sifius I will heal Ícfea I will march! Cichsea I will retreat! Teichfea Battle cry In comram beós! I will garrison Géba dúnad Most are fairly straightforward (though somewhat hypothetical as not many first person future forms have been recorded).The battle cry broadly translates as on "with the combat, let's keep at it, who's next" Thoughts welcome but if that's a go, I'll see about recording these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pureon Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 I'm not sure if both Celt factions will use Old Irish, I'm not even sure where Old Irish was agreed to, but for reference on what phrases are required see:http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=449&p=257410 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greycat Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 GunChleoc mentioned that there was some agreement over using Old Irish for one of the ethnicities but I can't remember if that was Celts or Gauls (I'm a fairly new to this forum) and since I can't find a specific thread, I opened a new one.I've asked a colleague to help with the old Irish - mine is pretty ropey but he's an expert. So at the moment the minimal set is as follows:What is it? Coté? My lord? A thigerna? I will walk Rega I will go out against Rega @#$% I will build Con·utsa I will work land Trebfa I will gather together Tecalfa I will herd Bia oc ingaire I will fish Ad·cichlus I will attack! Do·fius I will repair Lesaigfer I will hunt Do·sifius I will heal Ícfea I will march! Cichsea I will retreat! Teichfea Battle cry In comram beós! I will garrison Géba dúnadMost are fairly straightforward (though somewhat hypothetical as not many first person future forms have been recorded).The battle cry broadly translates as on "with the combat, let's keep at it, who's next" Thoughts welcome but if that's a go, I'll see about recording these.Old Irish(sometimes called old Gaelic)was used 6th century–10th century. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Irish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 But if is most ancient that we can use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greycat Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 (edited) But if is most ancient that we can use.This may help.Old Celtichttp://www.univie.ac.at/indogermanistik/download/Stifter/oldcelt2008_2_lepontic.pdfCommon Celtic(proto celtic)http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/CelticLanguages/ProtoCelticEnglishWordlist.pdfCeltic Lexiconhttp://www.wales.ac.uk/en/CentreforAdvancedWelshCelticStudies/ResearchProjects/CompletedProjects/TheCelticLanguagesandCulturalIdentity/CelticLexicon.aspx Edited October 18, 2013 by greycat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunChleoc Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 (edited) Old Irish is the oldest form of Goidelic that we have good evidence for, so it could be used for the Britons.We could then go for the Brythonic branch for the Gauls, unless we find someone who can reconstruct enough continental Celtic for these phrases?I'm not sure if both Celt factions will use Old Irish, I'm not even sure where Old Irish was agreed to, but for reference on what phrases are required see:http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=449&p=257410Akerbeltz has been working off that list He's a linguist, lexicographer and translator, so you can be sure he will take grammar and pronunciation into consideration and not just the vocabulary with everything he posts Here is the list with proper formatting and necessary word censor cheatWhat is it? Coté?My lord? A thigerna?I will walk RegaI will go out against Rega assI will build Con·utsaI will work land TrebfaI will gather together TecalfaI will herd Bia oc ingaireI will fish Ad·cichlusI will attack! Do·fiusI will repair LesaigferI will hunt Do·sifiusI will heal ÍcfeaI will march! CichseaI will retreat! TeichfeaBattle cry In comram beós!I will garrison Géba dúnad Edited October 13, 2013 by GunChleoc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akerbeltz Posted October 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Well if they're specifically Britons then someone should probably procure Brythonic rather than Old Irish but I don't have any contacts for that.How are the Britons identifiable i.e. will they be geographically on mainland Britain or will it just involve a generally insular Celtic appearance of units and buildings? If so, could they be switched to being Hibernians (i.e. ancient Irish, for which Old Irish would be fine)? A lot of P-Celts, if there's Gauls AND Britons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greycat Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 (edited) Is this usefull?The Proto-Celtic language, also called Common Celtic, is the reconstructed ancestor language of all the known Celtic languages. Its lexis can be confidently reconstructed on the basis of the comparative method of historical linguistics. Proto-Celtic is a branch of the Western Indo-European languages, with the other branches Italic languages, Germanic languages and the Balto-Slavic group. The exact relationships between these branches are under discussion. The earliest archaeological culture that may justifiably be considered as Proto-Celtic is the Late Bronze Age Urnfield culture of central Europe from the last quarter of the second millennium BC. By the Iron Age Hallstatt culture of around 800 BC these people had become fully Celtic.The reconstruction of Proto-Celtic is currently being undertaken. While Continental Celtic presents much substantiation for phonology, and some for morphology, recorded material is still too scanty to allow a secure reconstruction of syntax. Although some complete sentences are recorded in Gaulish and Celtiberian, the oldest substantial Celtic literature is found in Old Irish, the earliest recorded of the Insular Celtic languages.Proto-Celtic to English word listhttp://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/CelticLanguages/ProtoCelticEnglishWordlist.pdf Edited October 25, 2013 by greycat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akerbeltz Posted October 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Hm. No. Allowing for some flexibility, Proto-Celtic is the common ancestor of Gaulish AND Brythonic and Goidelic. So from a temporal point of view, you can't have Proto-Celtic contemporary with Gaulish. It would be like having Indo-European alongside Ancient Greek.That aside, experts in Proto-Celtic are rare and finding one willing to contribute will be ... daunting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greycat Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 (edited) OK... I just learned this. Gaelic is not the same as GallicGaelic of or relating to the Goidelic languages, particularly the Celtic language of Scotland, and the culture associated with speakers of these languages and their descendants.Gallic or of or relating to the Gauls an area around France and surrounding areas.The Celts came from area around modern day Germany, Austria and Switzerland. Ireland was the last bastion of the Celts.http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/ Edited October 16, 2013 by greycat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greycat Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 (edited) "Some people [...] think the term should refer to one's genetic heritage: if your ancestors were "Celtic", then that makes you a "Celt". But this simply begs for a further definition: how do you know your ancestors were "Celtic"? Because they came from Ireland or Scotland or Wales or one of the other countries that are thought of as "Celtic" today? All this says is that you are of Irish or Scottish or Welsh descent i.e., that some of your ancestors were born on the geographical territories bearing those names"http://www.celticheritage.co.uk/guests_AKCeltic.cfm Edited October 16, 2013 by greycat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunChleoc Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 The progression is this:Indo-European -> CelticCeltic -> Continental Celtic, Insular Geltic Continental Celtic -> Gallic, Lepontic ... Insular Celtic -> Brythonic, Goidelic Brythonic -> Welsh, Breton etc Goidelic -> Irish, Scottish Gaelic etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greycat Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 (edited) We have to be in the correct time period though...notice underlined text when reading. My source are from a museum in Germany.b Caesar, de Bello Gallico, lib. vi. c. 17. The Germans derived their origin from Tuisto, apparently the same being as the Celtic Dis or Tis. Tacitus, de Mor Germanorumsource:The Scotish Gaëlhttp://books.google.com/books?id=n0MDAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=falseThe Rhine issues from the Celtic Alps, a little outside of Rhaetia, and proceeding westward, bounds Gaul and its inhabitants on the left, and the Germans on the right, and finally empties into the ocean. This river has always down to the present time been considered the boundary, ever since these tribes gained their different names; for very anciently both peoples dwelling on either side of the river were called Celts.Source: Roman History, 39: http://lexundria.com/dio/39/cyThe original Celtic homeland was an area of Austria, near southern Germany. From here they expanded over much of continental Europe and Britain.From the 3rd century BC large, town-like settlements were established, known as “oppida”. Gaius Julius Caesar came into contact with them during the Gallic War from 58 to 51/50 BC. During the Roman expansion in the 1st century BC, the typical Celtic remains and finds gradually disappeared; the population here gradually adapted to the customs of the new rulers. In the southeast of the British Isles a few objects in the style of the continental Celts are to be found, but since even ancient authors did not describe the Britons as Celts, their inclusion among them is very questionable.source: Keltenwelt am Glauberg | Museum http://www.keltenwelt-glauberg.de/en/research-centre/the-glauberg/ Edited October 18, 2013 by greycat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunChleoc Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Well, the ancient authors weren't modern historical linguists. It is a fairly recent discovery that the Celtic languages belong to the Indo-European family, so how would the Romans have known?There wasn't "one" Celtic people anyway, they consisted of diverse nations and were spread quite far, e.g. the Galatians mentioned in the Bible were Celts as well.To draw a modern parallel, I think everybody would agree that there's some difference in culture between Portugal, Spain, France, Italy and Romania? They all speak Romance languages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greycat Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 (edited) There wasn't "one" Celtic people anyway, they consisted of diverse nations and were spread quite far, e.g. the Galatians mentioned in the Bible were Celts as well.Yes. but they were not nations. Modern people are too attached to national identity i.m.o. Edited October 18, 2013 by greycat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunChleoc Posted October 20, 2013 Report Share Posted October 20, 2013 You're right. I only used that term because I coudn't think of the correct one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDM Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 Maybe peoples would describe them better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greycat Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 (edited) According to anthropological research.The Welsh, Irish and other peoples who regard themselves as Celtic cousins are in fact ancient Bretons who include the original English peoples. The Breton language is also distantly related to Irish, Manx and Scottish Gaelic.http://www.omniglot.com/writing/breton.htmMaybe peoples would describe them better.The word Nation does work but it usually comes with a dual meaning which I like to avoid. Edited October 25, 2013 by greycat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greycat Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 (edited) So the Celts that arrived would have spoken Gaulish while the indigenous people would have spoken Breton which distantly related to Irish, Manx and Scottish Gaelic.The Gaulish language is an extinct Celtic language that was spoken in parts of France and the Swiss Rhine area in the Roman period. Edited October 25, 2013 by greycat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Do you play the game gray cat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greycat Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Yes. It is very early stage though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greycat Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 (edited) edit Edited October 30, 2013 by greycat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greycat Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 (edited) If you want to use old Irish to make the game more fun, this is fine. I just wanted to explain this is not historically accurate. Edited October 25, 2013 by greycat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Is impossible be 100% accurate, so, where we find the Gaulish words that we need? See Iberians and Carthaginians too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greycat Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Is impossible be 100% accurate, so, where we find the Gaulish words that we need? See Iberians and Carthaginians too.I need to do more research into this but it seems to be closer to Latin than the modern Celtic language are... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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