Germanic faction(s)

[newcivs]

Greycat, I hope I bring you good news!

S.Rieckhoff

"Süddeutschland im Spannungsfeld von Kelten, Germanen und Römern, Studien zur Chronologie der Spätlatènezeit im südlichen Mitteleuropa."

1995

I don't have the book, but I will try and translate some bit found on the Internet. At first glance, she tried and differentiate Germanic people in the Danubian area according to the pottery.

i think that we can find it on 2shard, 4shared or better "the pirate bay"

[greycat]

Greycat, I hope I bring you good news!

S.Rieckhoff

"Süddeutschland im Spannungsfeld von Kelten, Germanen und Römern, Studien zur Chronologie der Spätlatènezeit im südlichen Mitteleuropa."

1995

I don't have the book, but I will try and translate some bit found on the Internet. At first glance, she tried and differentiate Germanic people in the Danubian area according to the pottery.

Book seems very rare, I had no luck so far in finding a digital copy. I looked to purchase book but they are asking $60-200.

[Mega Mania]

Frankish units from Restitutor Orbis:

1. Ðruχtiz Buγōn-arHwō = Bow and arrow war band 2. Jugunthiz Wrakjōnes = Young warriors 3. Slenγanan Folkan = Sling folk

1. Swerðan Harjaz Hreop-Wehren = Sword army of the Ripuarians 2. Ðruχtiz Hreop-Wehren = Ripuarian warband 3. Swerðan Saljon = Salian sword companion 4. Wrakjōnes Saljon = Salian warriors

1. Kjóll Swerðan-Ango Frisōnes = Sword and Angon Keel of the Frisii 2. Ðruχtiz Swerðan-Akwiz Frisōnes = Sword and Axe war band of the Frisii 3. Wrakjōnes Hattisku = Chatti warriors

4. Wrakjōnes Wargengus Hattisku = War steward of Chatti

1. Yaiðō Gadulingaz-Aþalaz = Noble Spear Companions

2. Gadulingaz-Erloz Hreop-Wehren = Companion Earls of the Ripuarians

3. Wrakjōnes Akwiz Wōđinaz = The Axe Warriors of Wōden

4. Gadulingaz Aþalaz Druhtinaz = Companions and Nobles of the King

1. Ridanz Wargengus Saljon-Hreop-Wehren = Steward riders of the Salii and Ripuarians

2. Ridanz Wrakjōnes Tencterōnes = Warrior Riders of the Tencteri

3. Ridanz Haimaz = Chamavi Riders

Ridanz γazðaz Hreop-Wehren = Pike-riders of the Ripuarians

Húsa Gadulingaz Sicambrōnes = Horse companions of the Sicambri

Húsa Gadulingaz Stranγaz = Mighty Horse Companions

Edited December 13, 2013 by Mega Mania

[Rodmar]

Western Germania Magna circa 1 A.D.

(according to recent studies)

In purple the Elba Germans, who will be collectively known as the Suevi (Svebans).

Higher resolution here.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Rodmar

[Rodmar]

Book seems very rare, I had no luck so far in finding a digital copy. I looked to purchase book but they are asking $60-200.

I translated from French a summary of this book, found at:

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/racf_0220-6617_1998_num_37_1_2803_t1_0239_0000_4

I hope my English is understandable.

We know that the Germans began a long period of migrations in the 190s B.C. In order to follow them, as well the Celtic peoples, in central and southern Germany, we have to get precise about chronology and cultural variants.

Historical sources have to be used with circumspection, because Caesar, describing trans-rhenanic peoples as Germans, builds up a political "bluff" that

will be successful until the 20th century A.D.

On the typo-chronology level, two traditional regards co-exist: firstly, the studies about Veltic oppida, particularly in fashion between 1950 and 1980, that tend to date the oppida's abandons either by the Roman conquest, or, for Bohemia, by the Marcomanni's invasion;

secondly, the typo-chronology of the cultures from central and northern Germany, which has its own references not so obviously linked to the southern groups.

To speak very schematically, the author tries and negate completely the traditional view according to which the oppida were destroyed by the Roman raids in 15 B.C., in particular that of Manching.

In the contrary, it is in the 70s and 60s B.C., during Ariovistus' reign, that the Celtic oppida are generally abandoned.

During La Tène D1b and D2, in a ruined land, builds up a mixed culture, influenced by both new Germanic infiltrations, and the Bohemian Celts. All the work is then about identifying cultural groups and their dia-chronical evolution, through ceramics at first then the garbs.

The author was questionned by the delves in a few little housings in the area of Regensburg. The ceramics found there didn't match with those catalogued in the oppida or the Celtic open housing in Bavaria and Würtemberg, of those Manching and Berching-Pollanten being best known.

The study is well conducted. Although some sites provided little material, proportion between both types of pulp clearly evidences two groups. The south-east Bavaria mainly provided crude ceramics with mineral degreasing, while the oppida provided fewer crude ceramics in proportion, with organic degreasing, graphited or comb-decorated ceramics, as well as painted ceramics.

Before assessing the chronological problem,the author points out that, while being both located south from the northern Germanic area where turned ceramics are unknown, these two groups are not influenced by each other.

According to a study about forms, it appears that the south-east Bavarian group probably originates from the central Germany and that it is influenced by the Czech oppida. One can follow the Germanic groups'penetration through the open housings, while at the same time oppida are still inhabited, in Bohemia for instance.

This first approach is complemented by a study of the garb, mostly fibulae, which allows to lay a chronology down.

The author uses data west to east from the Meuse to the Vltava, and north to south from the Wesphalian Gates to southern fringes of the Alps.

It is worth noticing that she adds to the oppida many trading or crafting open sites. As each type of fibula is thoroughly analyzed, this allows to both clarify a chronology and spot new groups' movements or exchanges with their neighbors.

Both tables are compared to the evolution of the Germanic furnitures in Bohemia, and the analysis of graveyards in Germany (Schkopau, Großromstedt) in order to set all those groups in the southern Celtic context.

Then, the author studies the dates from the sites in Basel: the "gaz factory" open housing and the cathedral hill's oppidum, both traditionnaly dated from 58 B.C., after the Helvetian defeat at Bibract.

Thanks to the progress made in the research in between, particularly in the area of Trier, it is not difficult to correct those dates. It is interesting to correlate them with those of the Schkopau graveyard and to precise the end of the occupation of the oppidum.

Fibulae's (and amphorae's) study shows that the "gaz factory" site was inhabited since the 150/130s B.C. and that the oppidum is inhabited from the 100/90s, at the end of La Tène D1b, to the middle of the century, before La Tène D2b.

With the same arguments, the author shows that the Altenburg-Rheinau oppidum, which abandon was correlated with the foundation of the Dangstetten camp in 15 B.C., doesn't survive the Basel oppidum.

Endly, the synthesis tries and link these new results with a renewed, and refined reading of ancient texts, that might close by even more to an absolute chronology.

We started with the south-east Bavarian group, influenced by Celtic La Tène cultures, but whose ceramics make him a Germanic group.

Funerary rituals are too diverse to suggest a cultural identity, and for that purpose, our opinion is that the scattered housing in hamlets and semi-buried houses are not pertinent features.

But is is also clear that this (those) group(s) don't participate to the oppida phenomenon. They come in between the oppida's end and the Großromstedt culture's beginning, and cover the same period as La Tène D2a.

It may have participated to the contacts between the Germans and the Noricum realm, as well as the Celtic "migrations" to the south-east.

Even if the "empty land" theory is hard to prove, the author points out that we have no solid archaeologic material concerning the peoples the Roman would have encountered when they settled there in the last decades of the 1st century B.C.

Oppida in Bohemia survived those in Bavaria, but after the Boii moved to Burgenland where they were vanquished by the Dacians between 60 and 40 B.C., the country is devastated.

Oh joy! The same author led me to this collective work:

http://books.google.fr/books/about/Studien_zur_Lebenswelt_der_Eisenzeit.html?id=TwPQkNPm2qQC

A page every other or three pages is missing and it is in German.

There are some pictures, including jewels of women (on the googlebook page).

One of the contributions is titled "Early Germanic Warrior Order (or warrior "exhibits" in graveyards?) and forms of societies in the Celtic Military" (p149). I translated its summary (p185):

Scientific German is too difficult for me, so I gave up.

The Germanic warrior armament ([or] display?) from La Tène shows several ([or] occasionally) Celtic influences.

The influence follows the Celtic regression since the middle 3rd century B.C., appears in ([or] spreads over) eastern Central Europe,

corresponds with ([or] touches) the construction of the group. and concerns the emphasis of the individual.

The "mix" of riders and footmen belongs to the representation of the small group, the riders being a lord and his temporary retinue [??].

The staggering of the warriors appears since the middle of the 1st century B.C. in weapon deposits at the Elb-Germanic graveyards in Großromstedt and Schkopau.

The arrangement in three ranks of the army, spear bearers and shield bearers corresponds to the construction of the Celtic ritual feast (table fellowship), as it is described by the Greek historian Poseidonios in the beginning of the 1st century B.C.

Could a German speaker be kind enough to translate page 184? It is about the origin of the term "German" (again!) and the relation between the Elb Germans and the alledged Nordwestblock (aka the Belgians and Cisrhenanic Germans). I became bored because the sentences are very long, are written in a scientific style, and the output is barely meaningful:

(...) so we see us again on the same line as the ancient observers, to whom we owe the concepts and precise contents _ and this in his/their own confusion, that makes for example Geographer Strabo (VII,1.2), influenced by Poseidonios, but using his own formulation, separate the "Germans" and the "Celts" from each other, as it seemed to him, in the Roman sense "true Gauls" (gnêsioi Galátai), an explanation that therefore only seems naive to us now, just because they wanted to see the related migrations proved by the names too (Birt 1917; Norden 1923; Feist 1927), namely with a people name allegedly derived from the Latin germanus _ "true".

It is not the place to bring up how, what, when and where encompasses the name of the Germans.

The fact that one has to start from the Rhine, is stated for certain by the first mentions. Relevant historical contributions to the "German" concept have been achieved in the last decade by Kraft, Hachmann, Dobesch and Timpe (Pohl 2000).

Although our action, that concerns the realm of archeology, encompassed only a bit, chronologically, spatially, and factually, namely the Elb-Germanic context and its forerunners, a clarification appears to be necessary.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Rodmar

[newcivs]

for an early germanic facion, i think that this video is helpful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdKUiX61i9g

[newcivs]

the way i've seen it, random maps with player-versus-player or player-versus-computer aren't supposed to be historical, especially if you consider that some civs which never encountered one another are already in the game together (for example, the Britons never met the Mauryans). just because civs don't make sense when it comes to geography and chronology wouldn't make those civs less historical as a self-contained culture in the game. besides, the game already takes place in the fictional Year 0

the "saxonian" was in the first time only poor and hungry mercenarues, after a many kingdoms

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ9hxp4wxlU

[newcivs]

i don't understand, the video "is in german language" but the images are useful!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ9hxp4wxlU

[GunChleoc]

It's in Spanish language, actually

[Lion.Kanzen]

It's in Spanish language, actually

Haha I have this series in English, a shame the wears and props. But nice storyline to resume the barbarian invasions very entertainment.

The Barbarbarians - Saxons by History Chanel.

[greycat]

The destruction of Varus and his legions by Arminius in Teutoburg Forest 9AD

Edited November 27, 2013 by greycat

[Rodmar]

i don't understand, the video "is in german language" but the images are useful!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ9hxp4wxlU

First part:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnpEk5Ua20E

Second part:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-7VLTVR5VI

In the first few minutes, they credit the hypothesis the Teutoni were an Helvetian sub-tribe rather than a Germanic people from the Baltic shore (as shown on a map). They also recall some major civ. difference between the Celts and the Germans, or between the Gauls and the Transrhenanic Germans, if you like : nor roads, no towns (greatest housings are 25 houses villages), no organized aristocracy.

[greycat]

I agree there were "major civ. difference between the Celts and the Germans". But Caesar mentions very specifically that Gauls had moved into the most fertile parts of Germany and and began to dress like and eat the same food as Germans. So it is more a geographical location.

You are correct Germans had no druids and were more "uncivilized".

Edited November 28, 2013 by greycat

[Lion.Kanzen]

First part:

Second part:

In the first few minutes, they credit the hypothesis the Teutoni were an Helvetian sub-tribe rather than a Germanic people from the Baltic shore (as shown on a map). They also recall some major civ. difference between the Celts and the Germans, or between the Gauls and the Transrhenanic Germans, if you like : nor roads, no towns (greatest housings are 25 houses villages), no organized aristocracy.

wow looks nice, I hope they don't disappoint me with the costumes.

[newcivs]

i think that we can use the rank system!

basic

advanced

Elite! "Viking-style" and true expensive!

but this faction has a trouble "champions", what champions we put??

with the Gaesaia, we can "mitigate the infantry"

but the calvary ...................

and the last, we use siege armor?? "Rams"

[newcivs]

or better.

basic!

Advanced

"only for infantry" for the moment

Elite!

chamions

Same face, but more armor "+3" more health "+10%" more train time "5%"

[idanwin]

Please put those images in spoilers! Thank you.

[ProvencalLeGaullois]

would it be possible to have an infantry unit who can be stealth (as long as they not attacking or as long as a enemy comes very close of the german) when it is close of trees ? I want to see roman legions ambushed in black forest!

[Mega Mania]

Check this out: http://www.tollundman.dk/vaaben.asp

And : http://www.sagnlandet.dk/English.425.0.html

Its all about ancient Germanic/Norse warfare, hope it helps.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Mega Mania

[newcivs]

Check this out: http://www.tollundman.dk/vaaben.asp

And : http://www.sagnlandet.dk/English.425.0.html

Its all about ancient Germanic/Norse warfare, hope it helps.

thanks!!!

with your sources i have a few ideas:

1 mod the "celtic units":

* Gaeroa must be more naked, only getting cloth on advanced rank and protection on elite rank

* Iaorae = copy&paste

* Baguada = Cpoy&paste

* Gaisaredos, more health and more armor, appereance = copy&paste

2 we must add two units:

* champion infantry "may be based on gaesaia"

* an archer unit

i censhor Epos because on celtic society, Swords and Horeses are symbol of the elite, and in germanic tribes on the 200 BC, 100 AD, was very extreme that, the means the the epos, "a copy&paste of celtic epos unit" has the same rank system, but is the champion calvary!

3 weak and cheap buildings!!!!

house, celt hut

barracks = celt tavern

fortress = celt barracks

the rest of structures a copy&paste

copy&paste means copy the celtic structures, only puttin germanic textures and, go to play

[Rodmar]

No far at all from my own try in the Minifactions topic!

Just add priestess, woman, and naval transport.

[Mythos_Ruler]

A recurring design I see for Germanic clothing is the wide/large stripes or bands of color on their tunics and pants. That would definitely be something we'd carry through with our unit textures. Also, capes.

I think all buildings would be wood, even the fortress. They'd get no stone walls, but their palisade walls would come with maybe 1 or 2 techs to make them stronger or built faster. Attached is some old Germanic concept artwork from way back during the infancy of Wildfire Games.

[Mega Mania]

Here's a link: http://en.ordalies.com/?PHPSESSID=8qb8umr8gnpvop8akvhre53jf6.

It's all about Germans in 5th century AD.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Mega Mania

[Andrettin]

A recurring design I see for Germanic clothing is the wide/large stripes or bands of color on their tunics and pants. That would definitely be something we'd carry through with our unit textures. Also, capes.

I think all buildings would be wood, even the fortress. They'd get no stone walls, but their palisade walls would come with maybe 1 or 2 techs to make them stronger or built faster. Attached is some old Germanic concept artwork from way back during the infancy of Wildfire Games.

These looks very nice. Are they inspired from West Germanic architecture or Gothic/Vandalic?

Edited March 4, 2014 by Andrettin

[Le Druide Gaulois]

I just made some concepts. To the left there are 2 different sets for houses, a farmstead and a scout tower, and to the right different models for a civic centre.