Working on stuff for Alpha 14.

[FeXoR]

...The problem is that map is awful for multiplayer. Terrible resource distribution (some people get stuck with very little wood while others get a ton; metal and stone are poorly placed), no real mines just little piles everywhere (and again, these are poorly distributed), too many little pools of water that make building unnecessarily difficult, bad spawning positions... I've played multiplayer games on Belgian Uplands. It just doesn't work. As I understand it's a pretty experimental map however, so that's excusable. If all those problems (particularly resource distribution) were fixed, Belgian Uplands would be a great map.

I agree on that and the map description tries to make it clear. The resource distribution is by high (because the map design more or less totally depends on the heightmap). Would adding a bigger stone and metal mine added close to the starting positions help? Other suggestions for resource distribution welcome at http://www.wildfireg...howtopic=16535.

Deep Forest has many vegetables and and animals also. The path finder however and the actual implementation of formations can barely manage to cope with the different density forest though.

Edited April 16, 2013 by FeXoR

[alpha123]

I agree on that and the map description tries to make it clear. The resource distribution is by high (because the map design more or less totally depends on the heightmap). Would adding a bigger stone and metal mine added close to the starting positions help? Other suggestions for resource distribution welcome at http://www.wildfireg...howtopic=16535.

Yes, I think that would help, as would adding a few 5000 stone/metal mines periodically, instead of just 1000 ones. Ensuring that there's a high point with lots of wood near every player would be nice. Scattered other high points could serve as places to fight for expansions.

It would be very nice if every/almost every map had similar fish/berry numbers to Belgian Uplands and Deep Forest, especially if regenerative berries were implemented (speaking of which, that could work for fish too). I think that would really help with the current food source problems. If that and infinite farms with diminishing returns make it into Alpha 14, it would be a good gameplay enhancement.

[FeXoR]

Though that might me more of a topic fitting http://www.wildfireg...showtopic=16242 :

I don't like to have a similar amount and distribution of resources on all maps. I like variety. Indeed I'd like to have at least one map that only got wood (and maybe some food). Stone and metal would have to be traded than.

Edited April 19, 2013 by FeXoR

[Lion.Kanzen]

Yeah, respawn resources in new place, and a message to player, saying: new source are founded.

[idanwin]

Yeah, respawn resources in new place, and a message to player, saying: new source are founded.

Nope, I'm totally against that.

Trees growing back: OK (but slow rate)

Animals spawning: OK (but away from buildings and with an animals/tile^2 limit)

but no rocks/metal

and no messages.

[stwf]

It seems to me that some of these suggestions are getting away from what we are trying to create here, which is a game of ancient warfare, and also pretty unrealistic.

I mean a stand of trees that you could cut down in a week takes years and years to regrow. Unless we place strict limits on how many units are chopping trees there is no way they could ever regenerate. Same with berries, or animals, and that seems like too much micromanagement.

Better could be new resources showing up as research is done, like some detection technique being researched would result in a bunch of invisible metal deposits becoming visible In addition farms getting renewable, and more productive through research is also more realistic. Maybe bigger trees becoming available for cutting down. But lets remember that we aren't trying to rewrite Civ3 here (at least not yet).

[alpha123]

It seems to me that some of these suggestions are getting away from what we are trying to create here, which is a game of ancient warfare, and also pretty unrealistic.

I mean a stand of trees that you could cut down in a week takes years and years to regrow. Unless we place strict limits on how many units are chopping trees there is no way they could ever regenerate. Same with berries, or animals, and that seems like too much micromanagement.

Trees I completely agree with you on; they definitely should not be regenerating. There are plenty of trees on the maps currently, they take a decent amount of time to chop down each one, and they're in large clumps so you don't have to build a ton of dropsites. None of those things are true of fruit, and they probably shouldn't be. (They should gather fast and the map probably shouldn't be littered with them, although I'd certainly be happy if they were in bigger clumps.) Fruit should be a viable food source, which it simply isn't right now. It should require more micro than other sources, but should also be more efficient. It's completely optional micromanagement: if the player doesn't want to do it, they can simply go for corrals and/or farms, both of which should require basically no micro but also be less efficient than fruit.

The same is true of fish. I'd like regenerating fish.

I think I'll make a patch for regenerating food sources, then we can playtest this a bit.

Edited May 2, 2013 by alpha123

[WhiteTreePaladin]

Aren't corrals micro-intensive currently?

[quantumstate]

Corrals work completely differently at the moment to how they are intended to. Basically you will 'garrison' animals in them to generate a slow but steady food income.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Big commit: http://trac.wildfiregames.com/changeset/13400

Temporary Blacksmith structures for prototyping and playtesting.

Lots of new techs. Healing techs. Vision for outpost. "Conscription" tech boosts batch training speed. Implemented Macedonian "Hellenistic Metropolis" special tech.

Testing placing Champions in the barracks (unlocked with a tech). Try this out with the Macedonians.

Reduced archer attack damage. Reduced cost of healer.

Lots of other stuff.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Is working now that idea of corral?

[scroogie]

"Reduced archer attack damage." --- nooo, my precious archers.

Looking forward to all those changes.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Another big commit: http://trac.wildfiregames.com/changeset/13409

Bloody dead camel.

New wall technologies (research at Wall Tower, since for now techs can't be researched at wall segments).

Adjusted default BatchTrainModifier from 0.7 to 0.8 in all buildings since the new training techs were making unit batches train insanely fast.

Added 'Naval Architects' batch training tech to the Dock (and Carth Super Dock).

Attempting to add "Apadana" build limit, with no success. Need help here. I thought BuildRestrictions.js and EntityLimits.js were the files I needed to change, but it's not working (there should be a build limit of 1 for the Persian Apadana).*

Tweaked the levy techs.

Fixed Hero elephant unit RequiredTechnology.

*I fixed this in the next commit.

[eduh]

Why don't we make farms much bigger? There is no need so to change stats neither from corrals nor farms:

Making farms much more bigger, they would be more difficult to defend, add realism to the game, simulating farming zones, and adding a new Strategic component to the game. This could shift the metagame to get the corrals more useful, as they are much more easier to defend...

[Lion.Kanzen]

For island is not good idea. But I support your corral idea, it's some I want to see.

[EojjN]

Just read through this thread and have a few comments...

Firstly, RE: Food resources, I think what would be the best is to have a huge variety of food resources available, all with different advantages and disadvantages, as well as suiting different players and their playstyles, ie. I really like micromanagement so something along the lines of complex farming, farmland and maybe an introduction of irrigation would suit me very much, HOWEVER, other people seem to much prefer an easier, simpler option, that means they can just run off with their armies and KILL KILL KILL! I don't think there's a right or wrong option or playstyle, people should be able to play how they like, and I think this is a great project to give people that opportunity.

I really like the idea of a development of fruit and maybe orchards, one idea I had while reading all the above conversation was fruit trees/bushes will regenerate if placed inside an orchard, a player designated area, the idea being that the workers in the orchard "maintain" the trees, (I mean this as more of an explaination/excuse for the unlimited food resource, rather than something that would necessarily be visible.)

I think the idea of "farmland" is a great potential limiting factor for farms, especially seeing as they are becoming unlimited. The way I imagine it the farmland would be a lot more relevant in a desert map, where we only see grass around water, whereas in a more temperate map there is plenty of farmland, but maybe a further limiting factor could be introduced here?...

Another idea I have is RE: Animals respawning, why not have the animals "breed", so we have a herd of deer, who wander around together and every now and then offspring are produced. It's what happens in the real world, and is a simple solution to the problem of the resource diminishing. It may lead to players having to think a lot more when they are about to wipe out the entire population of deer (or whatever other animal), possibly leading to more micro-gameplay but we can just come up with ways to make that more optional.

After writing all that I think I've forgotten a load of stuff, but I can just add it later if it comes back!!

[Unarmed]

This is a good discussion. My thoughts:

1. I also do not like the farms next to civil centers, because it kills atmosphere. Something that stops or makes it difficult to do so I would agree on.

2. Fertile ground non-fertile ground could be really interesting, making maps more strategic. However it has the potential to make the game too complicated, and I'm certain it will make map developing more difficult.

3. I do not agree that all maps should have the same resources, I prefer the idea of having maps that would be authentic and require different types of gameplay. I could really enjoy maps without resources nearby for example. Though, I can understand the issues this could lead to, and I understand differences in map resources is already pretty much the case (though I see here players and developers suggesting maps to have more of resource x because map x has it, I don't agree)

4. I like the idea of having regenerating resources, but not stones or metal, I kind of like the idea of wood regenerating though I won't complain if only animals and fruit regenerate. (I like the idea of animals coming off map, but I'm not sure if that's possible). This argument however against wood:

I mean a stand of trees that you could cut down in a week takes years and years to regrow.

Not a good one. Real cities take years to be build. I can give more examples. I would not go for wood for gameplay reasons, not for such a reason. Here you go: elite soldiers take years to train.

5. I would also like gathering and hunting to become a bit more important, let me explain:

Now, hunting and gathering was pretty important in Ancient times, because many people supplemented their diet in the Middle Ages with hunting and gathering. (True, this is a assumption, not a fact, but it is a fact people in the Middle Ages supplemented their diet with hunting and gathering) Wildlife would have been much more plentiful than to today (I'm very certain). I'm no expert on Ancient fauna, but what I know:

-Prehistoric Europe and Asia had huge herds of animals, think Serengetti

-In Ancient times certain animals did however decline

So prehistoric Europe and Asia would be somewhere in the middle. Animals would not be that plentiful as the prehistoric times, but yes more plentiful than in modern times.

By the way, I don't think animals are lacking on most maps. But other food sources like; nuts, mushrooms, berries are lacking. Hence I want to make some when my computer is back.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Unarmed

[Lion.Kanzen]

The most civilizan units to do multiple tasks, engineers can construct siege units in a battlefield, hunter can camouflage into bush, and do abilities

Spartan can be have flutists to give maximum bonus in attack or defense. diplomatic can do habilities to stop a attacking , but reduces gold in the stockpile. Assassins very letal unit with limits and weak with melee unit. Other units can do it mechanical for Romans can have a tow.

[gab]

Another idea I have is RE: Animals respawning, why not have the animals "breed", so we have a herd of deer, who wander around together and every now and then offspring are produced.

Empires : Dawn of the Modern World had such systheme, it worked well, the only weakpoint was isolated animals( a small groups of bears in a closed narrow space ), they would start to multiply until all the empty space is taken...

An interesting video(at least the 2 first minutes), "In which I discuss the pros and cons of olive farming in the ancient world, and then get kicked for my efforts" :

(the author also did points on longbows, shieldwalls, etc...)

[JuliusColtranePille]

This is a good discussion. My thoughts:

1. I also do not like the farms next to civil centers, because it kills atmosphere. Something that stops or makes it difficult to do so I would agree on.

2. Fertile ground non-fertile ground could be really interesting, making maps more strategic. However it has the potential to make the game too complicated, and I'm certain it will make map developing more difficult.

....

i like these ideas very much! maybe it should be connected to difficulty? or it should be done with a simple on/off-switch (non-fertile grounds...)

Edited July 26, 2013 by JuliusColtranePille