[Scenario]Codename: "Romeland Security"

[desmotes]

- suspended til clearing on the use of Nazi symbols in the game -

When in doubt, I rather quit taking part than being involved in something illiegal in this country.

Edited December 8, 2012 by desmotes

[LmScar13]

My guess is Hannibal's campaign. Amirite?

[desmotes]

It's quite obvious, Isntit?

[serveurix]

- suspended til clearing on the use of Nazi symbols in the game -

When in doubt, I rather quit taking part than being involved in something illiegal in this country.

You know, the fact that the swastika is illegal doesn't mean that the game itself is illegal. And it means even less that your own work is illegal.

0 A.D. is free software, you can modify is as you want, in respect of the license. If swastika is a problem, just remove/replace a few shields, recompile, and you get a game wich is legal in Germany (I say that because that's what Mythos_Ruler suggested : make two versions).

But anyway, whatever the number of different versions is, the legality of what *you* produce depends entirely of *you*. You want to make a Hannibal's campaign scenario, and as I suppose, you don't plan to put anything illegal in this, so it's fine. Just publish your work under a license which is both compatible with the game's license and the requirements of the devs (I guess they only take copylefted works), and then you can include it in the original version of the game, in a modified version of the game, or even publish the files alone somewhere else, and if the devs are interested they will add it to the game.

So, "being involved in something illegal" doesn't make sense in the world of free software / free art : you just produce a work and let contributors do what they want as long as they respect the terms of the license. As long as you don't include swastikas (or anything else illegal) yourself in your own scenario, technically you are not "involved in something illegal", even if the scenario is included in the worldwide version of the game.

[fabio]

IANL, but I think there are no legal problems in including a Mauryan swastika in the game, it has really nothing to do with Nazis.

The real point is that someone may be anyway offended by this, as well as for the nude breasts, so since they add very very little to the game they could be easily removed.

OTOH they make some noise and can add free publicity to the game

[desmotes]

You know, the fact that the swastika is illegal doesn't mean that the game itself is illegal. And it means even less that your own work is illegal.

0 A.D. is free software, you can modify is as you want, in respect of the license. If swastika is a problem, just remove/replace a few shields, recompile, and you get a game wich is legal in Germany (I say that because that's what Mythos_Ruler suggested : make two versions).

In fact, if the game was in some way available in Germany with the Swastika included in it, it does make the game illegal, whether you like it or not. As someone who is quite familiar with the laws on this, I don't just trust blindly "some foreigner that has read the wikipedia and thinks he's a lawyer now".

But anyway, whatever the number of different versions is, the legality of what *you* produce depends entirely of *you*. You want to make a Hannibal's campaign scenario, and as I suppose, you don't plan to put anything illegal in this, so it's fine.

I didn't say: "I don't want to do something illegal", I said: "I don't want to be involved in this, because it is illegal".

The real point is that someone may be anyway offended by this.

No, it's not "the real point". The real point is, according to German law, including the Swastika makes it "distribution of Nazi porpaganda", no matter, whether it is the "Hindu Swastika", the "Mauryan Swastika" or any other form of Hakenkreuz.

But it is indeed a point that I feel offended. Ignoring the modern use of the Swastika, the legal issues and the feelings of millions of victims of the Nazi Regime and their relatives, just to include a minor detail easily replaced by another symbol is an indication of a motivation of saying "Mauryan Swastika" and actually meaning "Nazi Swastika".

So, if you want it that way, in the words: "I don't want to be involved in something illegal", you might just read: "I don't want to contribute to Nazis" - I'd rather contribute my scenarios, maps and such to projects without this "sympathy for the devil".

[zoot]

In fact, if the game was in some way available in Germany with the Swastika included in it, it does make the game illegal, whether you like it or not.

The Bundesprüfstelle doesn't seem to agree:

Even the Bundesprüfstelle is of the opinion that swatiskas in videogames shouldn't be seen as illegal:

http://www.bundespru...de,rwb=true.pdf

Unless better advice comes up, this is probably the most reliable to go by.

[serveurix]

In fact, if the game was in some way available in Germany with the Swastika included in it, it does make the game illegal, whether you like it or not. As someone who is quite familiar with the laws on this, I don't just trust blindly "some foreigner that has read the wikipedia and thinks he's a lawyer now".

I could model a tree just for fun, put it on Wikimedia Commons, some 0 A.D. contributor could find it interesting and decide to include it in the game. I wouldn't consider myself *involved* in 0 A.D.. Maybe the lawers would, but screw them.

This is for the moral side, but in fact I don't know if your problem is about moral or about law.

But it is indeed a point that I feel offended. Ignoring the modern use of the Swastika, the legal issues and the feelings of millions of victims of the Nazi Regime and their relatives, just to include a minor detail easily replaced by another symbol is an indication of a motivation of saying "Mauryan Swastika" and actually meaning "Nazi Swastika".

This is your European vision of the Swastika. Some people are not offended because when they see the swastika, the first thing they think about is hindu religion. Would you say to the priests of the Holy Week of Seville that, by wearing their capirote, they ignore the victims of Ku Klux Klan terrorism ?

[desmotes]

Would you say to the priests of the Holy Week of Seville that, by wearing their capirote, they ignore the victims of Ku Klux Klan terrorism ?

Then your point is: Because video games have a tradition of using the Swastika for fun that is much older than the use of the Swastika by Nazis, they should be allowed to ignore this connotations?

___

Even if it ain't illegal, it's still more than questionable and I made a decision to not contribute to a project that has this (presumed?) proximity to Nazi propaganda. In the end, I can play it everytime I want and it's lots of fun - it won't become less fun by not sharing it openly. But it would suffer from being included in this game, like the game in toto already suffered much, at least to me.

Edited December 17, 2012 by desmotes

[serveurix]

Then your point is: Because video games have a tradition of using the Swastika for fun that is much older than the use of the Swastika by Nazis, they should be allowed to ignore this connotations?

You know, I didn't complain when some people asked the art team not to put any gods' depiction on maurya buildings, claiming that destructions of gods' representations could shock people in India, because I had no idea of how shocking this could be perceived in a different culture. But despite I think a free software game should de as cautious as possible with the relativity of cultures, as a european I think we should have gotten rid of this old swastika-fear now. Keeping getting panic-stricken each time we see a swastika is just making more advertising to nazism.

But, anyway, let's focus on the important things. If two versions of 0 A.D. were released, one for Germany, without the swastikas, and one for the rest of the world, unchanged, would you still consider immoral to contribute to the project ?

[desmotes]

A generation which ignores history has no past — and no future.

Robert A. Heinlein

What you call "swastika-fear" is the refusal of a symbol that people do identify with, who then go around to kill people til the very day. Tolerating this propaganda means tolerating racist crime and Antisemitism.

Anyway, do you know, what a "fig leaf" is? I think a "German version" would be just that - but I think in a country with a strong nationalist/racist movement and a long history of strong Antisemitism that wasn't forced to learn a lesson from WWII, this is perceived differently...

[zoot]

0 A.D. shouldn't concern itself with perceptions at all. If some people want to be offended, that is their problem, not ours. If a few minor changes can make the game accessible to more people, though, that would be worth considering, IMO.

[iap]

Sadly the swastika is just a graphic symbol while racism and antisemitism are global no matter the symbol. I see nationalism and racism and hatred and political parties gain their power by turning citizens against each other while spreading them by blood or belives and all of these without any relation to the Nazis or their symbols.

Furthermore, their moral claim is that they're not as bad as the Nazis.

So from a moral point of view using the swastika symbol can be offensive to those who actually seen their relativesget killed by the Nazi party but they don't play computer games. A lot of people might find it offensive but I find the banning of the symbol itself without the additional meaning offensive.

Anyway I think the old Swastikas where with round edges and this solves the problem, isn't it?

[Mythos_Ruler]

The Hindu swastika is not a Nazi symbol. To say it is a Nazi symbol is the real offense. 0 A.D. has no Nazi symbols within the game. None. Zilch. Nada. Null. There is no moral danger whatsoever in regards to Nazism or related ideologies. I don't know how more clear I can be here.

[Kimball]

The Hindu swastika is not a Nazi symbol. To say it is a Nazi symbol is the real offense. 0 A.D. has no Nazi symbols within the game. None. Zilch. Nada. Null. There is no moral danger whatsoever in regards to Nazism or related ideologies. I don't know how more clear I can be here.

All of this. It's ignorant to assume otherwise.

[Lion.Kanzen]

this again?. we must put with knew problems haha.

[idanwin]

The nazi's have had more than enough victims, should those from whom they stole their swastika be forced to give up a traditional symbol because of the wrong-doings of the third reich? I'm against nazism, people of my family have been killed in concentration camps, but we should not try to erase this from our past, and we should certainly not erase the hindu swastika from our history because of hatred towards the things that the nazi's did. Why, while we are at it, not forbid the german language, destroy all copies of mein kampf and start over again from the year 1913 as if the past century never happened? I understand you hate nazi's, and neo-nazi's, and I share this hatred. But keep it at that, don't go around hating everything that makes you think of them.

PS I'm against your way of handling this topic, instead of protesting (yes, I know, protesting has gotten rather popular lately) can't you just discuss this in the thread that was made especially for this topic?

Edited December 19, 2012 by idanwin

[desmotes]

A rather stupid argument. I discussed it there and made a decision here that I won't share the scenario. It's not my fault, when people start discussing here, too.

[desmotes]

The Hindu swastika is not a Nazi symbol. To say it is a Nazi symbol is the real offense. 0 A.D. has no Nazi symbols within the game. None. Zilch. Nada. Null. There is no moral danger whatsoever in regards to Nazism or related ideologies. I don't know how more clear I can be here.

I made my point and obviously our points of view differ on that. To make your opinion absolute just shows how ignorant you are. I made the clear point that I always have to think about the Nazis and the Holocaust, when I see the swastika. Good for you, if you can ignore that, I can't. And I won't contribute to a project that spreads this Nazi propaganda, no matter if you consider it that or not! People also considered it not a crime to kill jews or sell Blacks as slaves - there have always been those who see and those who choose to ignore.

Anyway, you won't change my point of view, this discussion is totally in vain, and you can't force me to contribute, cuz whether you like it or not, there's a personal freedom that allows me to chose.

It's bad enough that you guys chose to ignore my wish to delete my account stated on Dec 8th.

[Kimball]

I'm sorry that you have difficulty separating yourself from the negative association, but Michael's right about this. There's no link between the two. In fact, Hitler chose to flip the swastika and tilt it ironically because the Nazi party was the antithesis of peace. If, because of this, you can't look at a Hindu swastika without being reminded, I pity you. No one is trying to force you to contribute, we're just saying that you're being irrational. None of us are saying that it wasn't a crime to kill jews - we're just saying you're misinterpreting this whole thing.

To suggest that we did this intentionally to spread Nazi propaganda is beyond me. That's possibly the most absurd accusation I've ever heard made of 0 A.D. I'm sorry you feel this way, and we're sad to see you go, but at least recognize that we're not at fault.

[Mythos_Ruler]

I made my point and obviously our points of view differ on that. To make your opinion absolute just shows how ignorant you are. I made the clear point that I always have to think about the Nazis and the Holocaust, when I see the swastika. Good for you, if you can ignore that, I can't. And I won't contribute to a project that spreads this Nazi propaganda, no matter if you consider it that or not! People also considered it not a crime to kill jews or sell Blacks as slaves - there have always been those who see and those who choose to ignore.

Anyway, you won't change my point of view, this discussion is totally in vain, and you can't force me to contribute, cuz whether you like it or not, there's a personal freedom that allows me to chose.

No one said you are forced to contribute.

It's bad enough that you guys chose to ignore my wish to delete my account stated on Dec 8th.

Use your personal freedom and choose to stop posting?

Overall, it's a shame that your emotions cloud your judgment here and choose to ignore facts (like the fact that the Hindu swastika is not a Nazi symbol). It's also a shame that you equate Hindu symbolism with "Nazi propaganda." It's simple fact that the game does not spread Nazi propaganda. Your views on this matter are extreme fringe views. We can't and shouldn't bend to extremist views.

[FeXoR]

I'm sorry that you have difficulty separating yourself from the negative association, but Michael's right about this. There's no link between the two. In fact, Hitler chose to flip the swastika and tilt it ironically because the Nazi party was the antithesis of peace. If, because of this, you can't look at a Hindu swastika without being reminded, I pity you. No one is trying to force you to contribute, we're just saying that you're being irrational. None of us are saying that it wasn't a crime to kill jews - we're just saying you're misinterpreting this whole thing.

To suggest that we did this intentionally to spread Nazi propaganda is beyond me. That's possibly the most absurd accusation I've ever heard made of 0 A.D. I'm sorry you feel this way, and we're sad to see you go, but at least recognize that we're not at fault.

I mainly agree. But this is what I meant in this thread: http://www.wildfireg...showtopic=16828

Some people might feel offended by that. Even if not rational - well I guess we as humans can't be entirely rational anyway - I think it is a valid argument to drop it. As I said it'd be a waste of artwork done - and that's a shame - but I think it is a good thing to respect someones feeling. If it seams irrational its a good thing to tell this person that you see it this way also. But in the end it would be nice to let the more "emotional" point of view have their way so that none feels bad (as long this person didn't cross other persons borders along the way - what might have happened in this post). And I fear he's not alone with his strong feelings. I'm from Germany too and know how it is. Seeing a swastika feels similar to an electronic shock ^^.

Edited December 19, 2012 by FeXoR

[Almin]

I mainly agree. But this is what I meant in this thread: http://www.wildfireg...showtopic=16828

Some people might feel offended by that. Even if not rational - well I guess we as humans can't be entirely rational anyway - I think it is a valid argument to drop it. As I said it'd be a waste of artwork done - and that's a shame - but I think it is a good thing to respect someones feeling. If it seams irrational its a good thing to tell this person that you see it this way also. But in the end it would be nice to let the more "emotional" point of view have their way so that none feels bad (as long this person didn't cross other persons borders along the way - what might have happened in this post). And I fear he's not alone with his strong feelings. I'm from Germany too and know how it is. Seeing a swastika feels similar to an electronic shock ^^.

I second this, because it is one of the best posts concerning this topic that I have read so far in a web forum.

[zoot]

But in the end it would be nice to let the more "emotional" point of view have their way so that none feels bad (as long this person didn't cross other persons borders along the way - what might have happened in this post).

In a general sense I agree, offending people shouldn't be a goal in itself In this case, though, it's at odds with historical accuracy, which is really one of main 'selling' points of the game.

(Also, I respect that 'electric shock' a lot Germans feel towards this - and I don't think most of them are as unreasonable about it as this particular poster were, either.)

[desmotes]

First: I think it's a matter of politeness to answer somebody that opens up the discussion again and expects an answer, so, after checking in again, I saw two answers and chose to post back. And so it went on, since people obviously feel they need to persuade me into some kind of holocaust denial, because they chose to ignore modern history.

Second: Hitler might have flipped and mirrored the original swastika. But fascism didn't end with Hitler. All kinds of variations of the Swastika have been made up (pre-existent and fictional) by Nazis and Neo-Nazis to identify with the Third Reich. There is like no variation I haven't seen yet not used by Nazis, which is why German law doesn't differ. Neither do I. If you think it's clever to ignore modern history in favor of some minor detail, I consider this sick - since it's the majority that thinks so, I feel even more offended by you guys. And yes, feelings are irrational. But industrialized genocide isn't something you should ignore that easily.

Third thing: As I said, if you think, using Nazi symbols is a necessary feature of the game, use it - but don't complain if people feel offended by it. If your goal is to offend people, go on! But don't expect me to play or contribute or only expect me to be the only one to be offended.

This is the very last post now, don't expect any further answers.