Wonders, Special Buildings, and Special Projects

[Anofackú]

Great Altar at Pergamon?

Theres also tons of Celtic monuments and wonders, even germanic ones. They werent primitive Barbarians you know...

[Mythos_Ruler]

Theres also tons of Celtic monuments and wonders, even germanic ones. They werent primitive Barbarians you know...

Like what?

[majapahit]

Building wonders should give different advantages on each civs. It would be even better if there's a capability to capture buildings and wonders.

Enemy can build a wonder that a player cannot build but player can capture it to give some advantages.

[oshron]

Building wonders should give different advantages on each civs. It would be even better if there's a capability to capture buildings and wonders.

Enemy can build a wonder that a player cannot build but player can capture it to give some advantages.

i say, for the purposes of random map/multiplayer gameplay, wonders that you can actually build should just be generic and give no abilities, except for a "wonder victory" like in the AOE games. at the same time, though, there would be special versions of those same wonders as well as others which grant different abilities

to give such examples from a different RTS (Empire Earth) there were six wonders that gave different abilities to the player that built them (keep in mind that some of these were misspelled in the actual game):

1. Coliseum: expands population limit
   
2. Ishtar Gate: makes your walls sturdier
   
3. Library of Alexandria: reveals all buildings
   
4. Pharaoh's Lighthouse (Pharos Lighthouse): reveals all water within a large area
   
5. Temple of Zeus: makes all your units self-heal (as a note, no units in Empire Earth, except for heroes, could heal their own wounds, but since 0 AD has regenerating units last i checked, a wonder with this power could probably just increase their rate of regeneration as well as let them heal while working or moving)
   
6. Tower of Babylon (Tower of Babel): allows priests to convert enemy units with an area of effect (eg, instead of converting just one unit out of a group, a priest will convert that unit and others nearby/next to it)
   

so, in the context of 0 AD, the Athenians, for instance, would have the Parthenon as their wonder which, under normal circumstances, just let them get a wonder victory if it stands for ten minutes or so in random maps. simultaneously, the editor would let a scenario designer access a different version of the Parthenon which would give some kind of special power, probably related to athenian culture or perhaps greek religion (since it was a temple to athena)

Edited July 19, 2012 by oshron

[oshron]

i was just giving examples of wonders and their respective powers from Empire Earth; of those listed there, the Tower of Babel and possibly the Coliseum should be excluded, the former because its more mythical than historical, and the latter because coliseums were found all over the roman world, so the one in rome wasn't really unique for its time. as i said before, something evocative of the roman senate should be given to the Pre-Imperial Romans as their wonder instead while coliseums are included in the editor for design purposes

alternatively, the Pre-Imperial Roman wonder could be the Roman Forum even though it would be less impressive than a coliseum or a mighty temple. ideas could also be taken from Age of Empires, from the first installment and its expansion for Part 1 and from AOK for Part 2; for example, a possible Hunnic wonder could be virtually identical to what it is in AOK: The Conquerors--a looted Arch of Constantine (or any exceptionally large arch) with broken pieces and a horde of treasure around it, suggesting that its part of a city that the Huns conquered even if its not exactly historical. in the case of the Huns, i think some leeway could be given on that matter since they were nomads and the hunnic empire never actually had a capital city, just territory that the huns controlled. after all, some artistic liberties have already been taken in the design of some buildings

Edited July 20, 2012 by oshron

[majapahit]

i was just giving examples of wonders and their respective powers from Empire Earth; of those listed there, the Tower of Babel and possibly the Coliseum should be excluded, the former because its more mythical than historical, and the latter because coliseums were found all over the roman world, so the one in rome wasn't really unique for its time. as i said before, something evocative of the roman senate should be given to the Pre-Imperial Romans as their wonder instead while coliseums are included in the editor for design purposes

alternatively, the Pre-Imperial Roman wonder could be the Roman Forum even though it would be less impressive than a coliseum or a mighty temple. ideas could also be taken from Age of Empires, from the first installment and its expansion for Part 1 and from AOK for Part 2; for example, a possible Hunnic wonder could be virtually id

A wonder should be a building that amazes the masses. Coliseum vs roman forum? I'll stick with coliseum. (Reference as in gladiator movies)

[Mythos_Ruler]

The Roman Forum was multiple buildings anyway. Better to make the Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus and a couple of basilicas and some other eye candy (free standing columns, etc.), so designers can make their own Forum.

[oshron]

i know that the forum was more just a place BETWEEN buildings, but something thats supposed to be like the forum (maybe very large pillar surrounding a fountain on very detailed marble textures for the floor. another plus to the Forum being a wonder would be that, as far as i know, its never been done before in an RTS that includes the romans

incidentally, what wonder do you all think would be best for the Macedonians? i think the best choice would probably the the Library of Alexandria. and what about the Spartans? as far as i know, they werent big on building monuments, so maybe something fictional but based on something real could work? perhaps an emulation of the Colossus of Rhodes?

[majapahit]

Pontoon bridge should be a unit or building?

[dvangennip]

Would pontoons really add something to the game? I think that quickly building a dock by some of the civ-soldiers, and then having a ship shuttle troops across the water would result in the same thing. Actually, a simple but not super pretty solution would be to model a pontoon that is more or less as wide as a river. If the pontoon acts as a non-moveable ship you can move units cross by garrisoning them in the pontoon, and then ungarrison on the other side It could work as a 'specific scenario only' thing, although it is a bit dirty Otherwise the pontoon has to notify the pathfinder of being traversable, a much more difficult thing to do. Not that I am saying a pontoon should be in the game, though.

Edited August 8, 2012 by dvangennip

[oshron]

i think it'd be easier to either make pontoon bridge aesthetic units and a special texture to make a physical bridge that can't be destroyed, (which has already been done in the context of the game) or alternatively make one that sits on top of the water and can't be crossed by ships, eg land units can walk on it but ships can't pass it, so they have to destroy it. this would be useful for design purposes, like Caesar's invasion of Germany or Alexander's campaign at Tyre, but it's definitely superfluous when it comes to regular gameplay. perhaps it could be available to every civilization but disabled in regular gameplay, and can only be enabled through the scenario editor so that you don't have to protect an individual bridge that can't be replaced.

in the latter case, though, that opens up interesting traps: let your opponent build a pontoon bridge to your island, then use your ships and siege to destroy each end and trap their units, then you can pick them off

Edited August 10, 2012 by oshron

[majapahit]

Actually I really think pontoon bridge is an important part in gameplay and a nice tactical advantage.

[majapahit]

Super Weapons of the ancient worlds?

More than just catapult?

[Mythos_Ruler]

The Celtic "Wonder" perhaps?

[oshron]

yeah, Stonehenge is always a nice default. but it would only work for the Brythonic Celts, wouldn't it? what do the Gaulish Celts get?

[Loki1950]

Thing is Stonehenge was build by the Wessex culture about a 500 years earlier

Enjoy the Choice

[iap]

The Celtic "Wonder" perhaps?

But the building itself is copyrighted....

[zoot]

But the building itself is copyrighted....

I believe it expired ~4000 years ago.

[oshron]

now, what do we have for Wonders (or Wonder ideas) so far?

1. the Hanging Gardens of Babylon (?) (Achaemenid Persians)
   
2. the Parthenon (Athenians)
   
3. Stonehenge (Britons)
   
4. Carthaginians
   
5. Gauls
   
6. Iberians
   
7. Library of Alexandria (Macedonians)
   
8. Mauryan Indians
   
9. the Forum (?) (Republican Romans)
   
10. "the Colossus of Rhodes" (?) Spartans
    

the Hanging Gardens just occurred to me as an idea. though the Gardens predate the Persians and were built by the Babylonians, iirc one story behind it was that Nebuchadnezzar II's wife was Persian or Median, so there's some slight justification for it

Edited August 21, 2012 by oshron

[Pureon]

I'm not proposing we use this as the Carthaginian wonder, but it is a 'special building' so thought I'd post about it here too (not just on the staff forums):

The Mausoleum of Prince Ateban (2nd Century BC)

I modeled it after seeing some nice high res photos on wikimedia. It's built to the real proportions, although may or may not be to scale in-game, with a small amount of artistic license added mostly to the textures. Interesting read: http://www.historum....s-carthage.html

[Zeta1127]

For the Republican Romans, Mythos_Ruler suggested the Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus, and I agree that it is the best choice.

[oshron]

i decided to take a look at Wonders from the Age of Empires series and from Rise of Nations, so here's some ideas based on that:

• Flavian Ampitheater (hypothetical Western Romans; Part 2)
  
• Hagia Sophia (hypothetical Eastern Romans; Part 2) *this would be a bit of a stretch since the Hagia Sophia was built starting in 532, just barely past the cutoff date for a hypothetical Part 2
  
• Mauseoleum of Theodoric (hypothetical Goths; Part 2) *another stretch since it was built in 520 AD
  
• "conquered monument" (hypothetical Huns; Part 2) *another stretch, more because it would be fictional rather than historical
  
• Tikal Temple (hypothetical Mayans) *this would, of course, assume that Mayans are ever included; unlike the preceding civilizations ive mentioned, Mayans have never been seriously considered by the design team as far as i know
  
• Statue/Temple of Zeus (one of the Greek civilizations)
  
• Theater of Dionysus (one of the Greek civilizations)
  
• Mausoleum of Halicarnassos (one of the Greek civilizations)
  
• Colossus of Rhodes (one of the Greek civilizations; again, i'd recommend giving it to the Spartans)
  
• Terracotta Army (hypothetical Chinese)
  
• Hanging Gardens of Babylon (possibly the Persians; Part 1)
  

Edited August 24, 2012 by oshron

[Enrique]

Persian wonder, Hanging Gardens of Babylon. The size is the same as the big pyramid in atlas.

It's a Work In Progress render with AO in Blender. (Hopefully it looks similar with baked AO in-game)

The water is a placeholder until Myconid implement pretty water with reflections in buildings.

Credits to Pureon, I modified some assets he made used on the structure. Hope you like it

[fcxSanya]

Persian wonder, Hanging Gardens of Babylon. <...>

I like it, but currently it looks too strong/military for me, I think it would be better to make building more lightweight and make more emphasis on the flora, e.g. to remove some fortress details: merlons, arrowslit (not sure if it is correct terms, I marked them red on the attached image).

Similar comment about the top floor (marked yellow) - too prominent non flora element, may be better to replace it completely with more trees/bushes on the previous floor. On the other hand it can work to make player colour more noticeable.

From quick googling I found this:

this looks more similar to a garden by proportion of stone/flora. I'm not saying that your model should follow the same concept, this is your vision of the wonder after all; I just posted my related thoughts.

[Enrique]

Thanks for your feedback

I like it, but currently it looks too strong/military for me, I think it would be better to make building more lightweight and make more emphasis on the flora, e.g. to remove some fortress details: merlons, arrowslit (not sure if it is correct terms, I marked them red on the attached image)

I encountered two problems regarding flora, one is that it wastes a lot of polys to cover a big portion of space (polycount is really high now). The other is that more flora means less space to "walk" through the garden "structure". I designed the building so you can follow a path and use the stairs to get to the top of the building, instead of covering all space visible with flora. Still WIP and there are some places where I want more amount of green, so I'll take your feedback and make it "greener"

more screens