Genedered Civilians

[Emacz]

So this is something that has been bothering me since a28 was released.  What was the point of gendered civilians?   I like to think I'm about as PC/liberal as they come but I have several issues with them.

First off historically most human societies were men driven, where women had little to no power or rights.  Aren't we trying to represent 500 BCE to 500 CE or there abouts?

Secondly why would a civilian male who is wearing no armor be slower both in movement speed and in gathering resources?  In fact, even women might be able to gather as fast or at least have more carrying capacity since again in a lot of societies that was one of their prominent roles.

So was the decision to just be PC? to somehow improve the game play? 

[Deicide4u]

17 minutes ago, Emacz said:

So was the decision to just be PC? to somehow improve the game play? 

So that you don't have 50 females and 5 males in the first 5 minutes of the game. Among other things. Read the official announcement of R28. 

Someone else already created a similar thread.

[guerringuerrin]

Hi, @Emacz 
The reason is historical consistency. You can check the release annauncement for more information, there is an specific title explaining this here:

https://play0ad.itch.io/0ad/devlog/1399284/new-release-0-ad-release-28-boiorix

 

22 minutes ago, Emacz said:

First off historically most human societies were men driven, where women had little to no power or rights. 

AFAIK, agriculture was a family and community activity, in which men, women, and children participated, although with a division of tasks. And this change aims to represent that. 
To be more specific, someone with historical expertise could provide a better explanation.That said, the lack of distinct male audio feedback separate from the citizen-soldiers is a regression in the UX that will need to be addressed in the future.

Also, there's a already a mod if you want to go back with this.

 

Edited 9 hours ago by guerringuerrin
typo

[Emacz]

1 minute ago, Deicide4u said:

So that you don't have 50 females and 5 males in the first 5 minutes of the game. Among other things. Read the official announcement of R28. 

Someone else already created a similar thread.

OK but if "women/civilians" are eco units, why are they slower at eco?

can you link me to the other thread?

[Emacz]

3 minutes ago, guerringuerrin said:

Hi, @Emacz 
The reason is historical consistency. You can check the release annauncement for more information:

https://play0ad.itch.io/0ad/devlog/1399284/new-release-0-ad-release-28-boiorix

 

AFAIK, agriculture was a family and community activity, in which men, women, and children participated, although with a division of tasks. And this change aims to represent that. 
To be more specific, someone with historical expertise could provide a better explanation.That said, the lack of distinct male audio feedback separate from the citizen-soldiers is a regression in the UX that will need to be addressed in the future.

Also, there's a already a mod if you want to go back with this.

 

But "you" aren't being consistent in game IMO.  Why is a citizen soldier who is carrying armor and weapons FASTER at gather than a male civilian who's task it is to gather?  That throws me off more than adding gendered civillians.  Like why can some men fight and gather resources faster than other men? 

 

"In an effort to improve historical consistency, we have replaced the visual appearance of civilian units. Previously described as a "female citizen", the basic economic unit is now called the "civilian" and has male and female models."\

While they are more economical to train... they still aren't really eco units in my mind when "cs soldiers" gather 3 out of the 4 resrouces faster.... its why you see very few pros if any using all "civilians" or "women" to gather stone, metal.

Edited 9 hours ago by Emacz

[guerringuerrin]

2 minutes ago, Emacz said:

But "you" aren't being consistent in game IMO.  Why is a citizen soldier who is carrying armor and weapons FASTER at gather than a male civilian who's task it is to gather?  That throws me off more than adding gendered civillians.  Like why can some men fight and gather resources faster than other men? 

Is obvious! they are so used to carry heavy equipment that become stronger. ( joking xD )

I can't anwer that, i'm sorry 

here's the audio/fullwomen mod. there two options you can chose:

 

 

Edited 9 hours ago by guerringuerrin

[Emacz]

1 minute ago, guerringuerrin said:

Is obvious! they are so used to carry heavy equipment that become stronger. ( joking xD )

I can't anwer that, i'm sorry 

here's the audio/fullwomen mod. there two options you can chose:

 

 

Im fine with thee idea of gendered civilians, in fact I kinda of like it if its more historically accurate which I agree to some degree it is.  I guess we will just have to change the gathering rates a little in Classical Warfare AEA

[guerringuerrin]

3 minutes ago, Emacz said:

But "you" aren't being consistent in game IMO.  Why is a citizen soldier who is carrying armor and weapons FASTER at gather than a male civilian who's task it is to gather?  That throws me off more than adding gendered civillians.  Like why can some men fight and gather resources faster than other men? 

 

"In an effort to improve historical consistency, we have replaced the visual appearance of civilian units. Previously described as a "female citizen", the basic economic unit is now called the "civilian" and has male and female models."\

While they are more economical to train... they still aren't really eco units in my mind when "cs soldiers" gather 3 out of the 4 resrouces faster.... its why you see very few pros if any using all "civilians" or "women" to gather stone, metal.

As I said in the first place. It's a way to represent the family and community activity in agricultural tasks.
You will find contradictions if you want, this is a game. Men didnt carry big perfect square iron block into fight and magically makes them disappear when engaging into battle.

1 minute ago, Emacz said:

Im fine with thee idea of gendered civilians, in fact I kinda of like it if its more historically accurate which I agree to some degree it is.  I guess we will just have to change the gathering rates a little in Classical Warfare AEA

Yeah. And it will be good to have specific voices in the future for answers and spaw of these units bc right now it creates confusion.

[Emacz]

Just now, guerringuerrin said:

As I said in the first place. It's a way to represent the family and community activity in agricultural tasks.
You will find contradictions if you want, this is a game. Men didnt carry big perfect square iron block into fight and magically makes them disappear when engaging into battle.

hehe true, yes some things can never be truly indicative of what life really was like, and who did what and how, where and when

[Arup]

use pyrogenesis to make an new entire game "AHA" i.e. as historical as possible, that should fix all these disputes

[Emacz]

13 minutes ago, Arup said:

use pyrogenesis to make an new entire game "AHA" i.e. as historical as possible, that should fix all these disputes

Have already done that... Thats what Classical Warfare AEA is, but using the same engine etc as 0ad.  Just supposed to replace a lot of the historical inaccuracies.

[DesertRose]

2 hours ago, Deicide4u said:

Someone else already created a similar thread.

That was a thread about a mod, not a discussion thread. I hope a mod moves all the garbage posts from there to here.

 

[Deicide4u]

6 hours ago, Emacz said:

First off historically most human societies were men driven, where women had little to no power or rights.  Aren't we trying to represent 500 BCE to 500 CE or there abouts?

Ensemble Studios knew something when they were making AoE1. Yes, ancient societies were dominated by men. The original game developers of 0 A. D. didn't give an explanation why they chose to represent women as a separate unit. Citizen-Soldier concept surely played a part in it, but they could have done this without representing women as farmers.

I've played almost all of the original first 10 releases, and even created a mod for one of them. The economy then wasn't so focused on wood, so you could distribute your income more efficiently. The game always had a pure eco unit that costs only food, but this unit isn't efficient at its job. It's also unfortunate that unit was literally a woman.

Now that this unit has both male and female variants, the developers could try creating a real, effective economic unit by R30, for example. Hope this makes sense.

Edited 3 hours ago by Deicide4u

[Emacz]

50 minutes ago, Deicide4u said:

Ensemble Studios knew something when they were making AoE1. Yes, ancient societies were dominated by men. The original game developers of 0 A. D. didn't give an explanation why they chose to represent women as a separate unit. Citizen-Soldier concept surely played a part in it, but they could have done this without representing women as farmers.

I've played almost all of the original first 10 releases, and even created a mod for one of them. The economy then wasn't so focused on wood, so you could distribute your income more efficiently. The game always had a pure eco unit that costs only food, but this unit isn't efficient at its job. It's also unfortunate that unit was literally a woman.

Now that this unit has both male and female variants, the developers could try creating a real, effective economic unit by R30, for example. Hope this makes sense.

So i actually like what 0ad is trying to do, I just think it needs to be tweaked, at least to make more sense in my had.  I like the complexity.

We had already played around witth the idea of a male eco unit in preveous alphas, create "serfs".  But now we have taken it one step furthing I think, although it needs some testing.  
women gather rates 1.0 .75 3.0 .5 .25 .25 (Now only cost 40 food, 40 health)

Gender rather rates 1.0 .5 3.0 .8 .43 .43  (50 food 50 health)

CS gather rates .75 .25 3.0 .75 .4 .4

and then Serfs.... I think the game misrepresents the role of slingers in Classical Antiquity.  Talking to some of the historians who have helped on the game, a lot of the civs didnt have slingers per say.... they were more like low class citizens who were the laborers, but sometimes would need to skrimish throwing rocks or other small objects at the invaders. So the civs that have women only all have a serf unit.  For slingers its 50% less dmg, 25% less range but only cost 40F 10S and 10W

their gather rates are: .75 .25 3.45 .86 .46 .46 (Berries, farms, meat, wood, stone, metal)

[chrstgtr]

7 hours ago, Emacz said:

Like why can some men fight and gather resources faster than other men? 

I’m a lawyer. I sit around at a desk all day reading and writing. I became a lawyer because I’m pretty good at reading and writing. I’d even say that I can do lawyer work better than your typical marine. But guess what? If you put a pack and boots on me I bet I’d be a lot slower on a trek than those same marines. 

All men aren’t the same and can’t do all jobs equally. 

[Emacz]

yes, agreed but if citizen soldiers represent a higher more noble class, why would they even bother with the labor?  And if you are wearing armor, holding a shield and a weapon, dont you think that would slow you down compare to another man who works the fields all days and wears nothing?  Its not like the laborer is obese.... thats definitely an american and 20th century problem.

You aren't a historian are you?

[Arup]

7 hours ago, Emacz said:

Have already done that... Thats what Classical Warfare AEA is, but using the same engine etc as 0ad.  Just supposed to replace a lot of the historical inaccuracies.

I WAS TRYING TO CREATE BAIT TO MARKET IT FOR YOU!! WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST POST A LINK THERE SMH

[Emacz]

we have a separate thread with the git and everything. 

[guerringuerrin]

11 minutes ago, Emacz said:

yes, agreed but if citizen soldiers represent a higher more noble class, why would they even bother with the labor?  And if you are wearing armor, holding a shield and a weapon, dont you think that would slow you down compare to another man who works the fields all days and wears nothing?

I think the economic tasks performed by soldiers in 0 A.D. can represent the kinds of economic activities soldiers carried out during military campaigns. Foraging, collecting grain from nearby villages, gathering wood for fires, building fortifications, and so on.

I think the citizen soldier concept in 0 A.D. actually reflects something that historically happened, something that other historical RTS games do not represent at all because they completely separate military units from civilian units.

They were probably not fully equipped when carrying out these kinds of tasks. I have read a bit about this here.

I read about this here. 
https://roman-empire.net/army/roman-military-logistics-supply-chain-history?utm_source=chatgpt.com

My source is probably very questionable, haha.
I'm not a historian and I know nothing about all this. But discussing these topics is fun and you learn something along the way. =)


edit: also i think that actually the champions are the kind of unit that represents a "higher more noble class" of soldier, and that's why they can't do economic tasks. different from citizen soldier that were probably more "common" folks. And also, there were other men that didn't went into fight and those are the civilians 

Edited 1 hour ago by guerringuerrin

[chrstgtr]

9 minutes ago, Emacz said:

And if you are wearing armor, holding a shield and a weapon, dont you think that would slow you down compare to another man who works the fields all days and wears nothing? 

Usain Bolt is pretty fast. So fast that he’d beat you in a foot race if he was wearing heavy body armor while you streaked down the track with nothing but the wind and the finish line between you and him. 

Also, it’s a game. Have fun 

[Emacz]

21 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Usain Bolt is pretty fast. So fast that he’d beat you in a foot race if he was wearing heavy body armor while you streaked down the track with nothing but the wind and the finish line between you and him. 

Also, it’s a game. Have fun 

you don't know how fast I am... what if I was Darren Jason Watkins JR and like to play video games in my spare time... im pretty sure i could beat Usain bolt wearing 70lbs of classical antiquity armor.

I am having fun.  You dont like to be questioned do you?

[Emacz]

Ill take a look! And I agree, with "I think the citizen soldier concept in 0 A.D. actually reflects something that historically happened, something that other historical RTS games do not represent at all because they completely separate military units from civilian units."

I was just questioning/wondering why the "male" version of the gender units were so much weaker at gathering resources!

[guerringuerrin]

2 minutes ago, Emacz said:

I was just questioning/wondering why the "male" version of the gender units were so much weaker at gathering resources!

oh yeah, sorry i just got lost in my thoughts 

Edited 1 hour ago by guerringuerrin

[Emacz]

2 minutes ago, guerringuerrin said:

oh yeah, sorry i just got lost in my thoughts 

no need to apologize, happens to me all the time!