More AI names for the Germans

[Obelix]

We need five more AI names added to Claodicus, Divico and Caesorix. As we already had some intense debate on Specific Phase names for the Germans I thought we might get some input from the community as well (i.e. @Genava55 and @Thalatta).

Background

@Vantha already reported Issue #8404 back in October:

Quote

The Germans only have 3, while all other civs have at least 8. That's because the game appends (2), (3), (4), ... to names used multiple times, which inevitably happens every time more than 3 bots at once play with the Germans in a match.

Suggestion

Of course we could reuse the Hero names Boiorix, Teutobod und Lugius, but making it more diverse sounds good to me. What do you think?

[Genava55]

Yes, unfortunately, that's somewhat of a problem with conceptualizing the Germanic peoples based on a very short period in their history, namely the migrations of the Cimbri, Teutones, Ambrones, and Tigurini. Not only are these historical events not very well documented, but it's also unclear what is Celtic and what is Germanic in the accounts. 

To my knowledge, only the names Boiorix, Lugius, Teutobod, Claodicus, and Caesorix are known. There is also Divico for the Tigurini mentioned by Caesar as having fought against Lucius Cassius in 107 BC (Agen). 

If we look elsewhere among the other Germanic peoples, there are Cotto, Clondicus, Deldo and Teutagonus, chiefs of the Bastarnae or of the Peucini. They are all mentioned by Livy except Teutagonus who is mentioned by Valerius Flaccus. There is also a chief of the Sciri mentioned on a stelae decree of Histria/Istros, his name is 'Atès' or 'Atas'.

Finally there is Ariovistus of the Suebi mentioned by Caesar. There are also two brothers, Nasua and Cimberius, leading a coalition of the Suebi from Germany to reinforce Ariovistus' forces. 

There are, of course, many well-known characters such as Arminius and Maroboduos, but there is no chance of ever seeing them appear in the base game.

Now, the problem with the names I mentioned above is that we need to reconstruct them into Proto-Germanic for the Germanic characters and translate them into Gaulish for the Celtic characters. 

Edited 4 hours ago by Genava55

[Genava55]

@real_tabasco_sauce@Vantha Which option do you prefer?

@Obelix suggested making variations on the few known names.

I posted a series of character names related to Germanic peoples dating back to the period before our era.

Which ones are you interested in? Should we reconstruct them in Proto-Germanic?

[real_tabasco_sauce]

In the near-term, we can certainly add Claodicus and Caesorix, I ran into those two on my relatively brief research into the topic. I am not opposed to expanding the timeline for the Germans to include teutoberg and arminius, so I am not sure why you say

2 hours ago, Genava55 said:

no chance of ever seeing them appear in the base game

[Vantha]

3 hours ago, Obelix said:

Of course we could reuse the Hero names Boiorix, Teutobod und Lugius, but making it more diverse sounds good to me. What do you think?

Hero names were specifically removed from the AI names a while ago (https://gitea.wildfiregames.com/0ad/0ad/commit/22cbd39bbd46d1bf2e87b8c26ae58f28a6d6fa1e), so that's not an option, unfortunately.

[Genava55]

1 minute ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I am not opposed to expanding the timeline for the Germans to include teutoberg and arminius, so I am not sure why you say

I don't know, probably a bad dream. 

20 minutes ago, Vantha said:

Hero names were specifically removed from the AI names a while ago (https://gitea.wildfiregames.com/0ad/0ad/commit/22cbd39bbd46d1bf2e87b8c26ae58f28a6d6fa1e), so that's not an option, unfortunately.

Thanks for the clarification. Should we use names that do not originate from the migration of the Cimbri?

[Stan`]

12 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

I don't know, probably a bad dream. 

36 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I am not opposed to expanding the timeline for the Germans to include teutoberg and arminius, so I am not sure why you say

I suppose the - 500 B.C. and 0 A.D cutoff, but I suppose +- 20 years isn't that bad

[Genava55]

25 minutes ago, Stan` said:

I suppose the - 500 B.C. and 0 A.D cutoff, but I suppose +- 20 years isn't that bad

It's good to return to a more reasonable position. I would remind you that in 2021, there were proposals to replace Boudicca in order to respect this cutoff.

Especially if the team members decide to make Empires Besieged an official mod that simply adds content (notably new playable civilizations), it has to be flexible. Historical cultures that fall on both sides of this arbitrary boundary will pose a problem otherwise. 

[Stan`]

8 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

It's good to return to a more reasonable position. I would remind you that in 2021, there were proposals to replace Boudicca in order to respect this cutoff.

Especially if the team members decide to make Empires Besieged an official mod that simply adds content (notably new playable civilizations), it has to be flexible. Historical cultures that fall on both sides of this arbitrary boundary will pose a problem otherwise. 

@wowgetoffyourcellphone and I actually started the mod on Gitea but we haven't committed anything yet.

[Genava55]

16 minutes ago, Stan` said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone and I actually started the mod on Gitea but we haven't committed anything yet.

I know, I saw the repo.

This is a good idea but you should really avoid carving up certain civs just to force them into one side of the fence. For example, with the Germanic peoples, I find it clumsy to restrict oneself to representing either the period before our era or the period after our era. You will have this problem with other civs like the Dacians and the Parthians. It's best to put these kinds of civs in Empires Besieged rather than Empires Ascendant. Since Empires Besieged is a kind of expansion, it is less of a problem to have a civ that includes some of its elements that date back to the period before our era.

I understand that you did not want Empires Ascendant to extend into the period of our era. It seems that this is the key point of contention. So it's better to accept some overlap in the other direction. If the mod includes civs with characters and references that span both periods, it's much less of a problem than if it were the base game.

Edited 16 minutes ago by Genava55