JagSUSsian Reforms

[Dakara]

Love the idea to give to Center Civ Maurya the elefant garnison

For regicide, maybe create a model of prince with 1000 hp, no bonus and a basic sword attack.

Love the idea to increase requirement of city guards xp by 15%, same for rome or not?

 

[basmamalikk]

On 14/12/2025 at 9:20 AM, Arup said:

I have played so much 0ad this update to the point I can be pretty confident I've played the most games in the lobby. I have QUITE the list of balance changes/ general changes I want to suggest! and I'll do it all here. before that, could I get a list of balance changes that are already being done for R28?

Just to clarify — R28 (Boiorix) already released on February 18, 2026. So there's no upcoming R28 to preview; you're already playing it! And for further information visit my site

Edited April 4 by basmamalikk

[Arup]

@Stan` petition to add a "Label" in Gitea for "Jagsussian Reforms" similar to how there is one for comm mod :3 hehe

[Guest]

23 hours ago, basmamalikk said:

Just to clarify — R28 (Boiorix) already released on February 18, 2026. So there's no upcoming R28 to preview; you're already playing it!

Cough* look at the date.

5 hours ago, Arup said:

@Stan` petition to add a "Label" in Gitea for "Jagsussian Reforms" similar to how there is one for comm mod :3 hehe

Make it "Sussus Alteratior" then again, you involving yourself in there is already enough.

Edited March 12 by Tapothei

[Arup]

sussy reforms

[Guest]

[Arup]

Helot Skirmishers should have -8% movement speed on account of them LITERALLY not being historically a fighting class/ethnicity

[Thalatta]

1 hour ago, Arup said:

Helot Skirmishers should have -8% movement speed on account of them LITERALLY not being historically a fighting class/ethnicity

I think you are using the words "LITERALLY" and "historically" a bit too generously. What even is a fighting class at that time? Ancient Greeks, at least until the end of the Classical period, didn’t practise hoplomachia (weapons training)*, thinking courage alone would carry the day. No, not even the Spartans, their training consisted mostly in improving their fitness, and for the other city-states, people just didn’t have that much free time. They would go from working to fighting and back to working, and only at most one third of those who were able to fight (randomly chosen per campaign, only the generals had a more fixed position). That’s maybe why they insisted on the belief that courage was enough, otherwise their impossible to train militias would be demoralised. Helots were good enough, to the point that both Thucydides and Diodoros Siculus state that those who served under Brasidas were "freed" (implying that they distinguished themselves), while the Spartans that surrendered at Sphacteria were disenfranchised (at least for a time). What is more, a helot farmer could have been more combat ready than an Athenian trader or potter. Diodoros Siculus also states that "since Brasidas had been joined by a thousand Helots and troops had been levied among the allies, a satisfactory force was assembled".

Now, if you want to nerf them for some not-so-historical reason, you could think of an "enslaved" characteristic (imagining that their fear would have been greater than their courage, or something), although I don’t understand why you propose a penalty on speed and not, as I think would make more sense, a penalty on attack or defense. But still, they would have fought satisfactorily enough, their fate being tied to that of their masters in the battlefield, and although they revolted and were liberated by Sparta’s enemies at other points in time, a battle is quite a convoluted scenario for any of that to happen, and I’m not aware of any records of it happening.

 

*Certain ranged units like archers or slingers did have to practise, otherwise they’d be useless. Same with cavalry.

 

[Arup]

I mean,afaik, spartans enslaved the native helots. they were scared of a revolt from helots, so they never allowed helots to fight and bare weapons. true that brasidas changed things around tho

[Thalatta]

8 minutes ago, Arup said:

I mean,afaik, spartans enslaved the native helots. they were scared of a revolt from helots, so they never allowed helots to fight and bare weapons. true that brasidas changed things around tho

All well known, my point (one of) being that, even when others did have weapons, they didn’t really train with them (save those who hunted, or participated in games, for example). I’m mentioning all this just because it’s just such a counterintuitive thing, yet that’s how their culture was.

[Arup]

no, that's actually quite an interesting thing to note @Thalatta I'm sure even you were surprised when you first learnt that the warrior class civilisation did not do weapons training, atleast I was when I heard it from you hahaha.

okay, I agree -8 might be too harsh.. maybe -5% ? I'm not decreasing their damage or resistance because that already happens due to the CC tech they have

I'm just saying, helots, a slave class for most of spartan history, should be inferior to a normal peltast

[Thalatta]

Yet I can’t imagine how speed could be affected negatively. What about range?

The whole point is, what is a normal peltast? It’s not like there was peltast training. Roles were more or less determined by status, that is, wealth. Roughly, either you had money for a horse, if not, maybe for the panoply, if not, maybe for a bow, or javelins, and if not, then sling or even throw stones by hand, or be an oarsman. Much of our impression that cavalry and heavy infantry were the really relevant troops while the rest almost cannon (arrow?) fodder comes from the fact that those who wrote down the stories were in that position, from having some wealth (thus, the time and education to write). Yet unprotected hoplites could be obliterated by peltasts (as Iphicrates knew), the idea that they were impervious to that is just a myth.

But I digress. My point is that I don’t see a speed handicap between a helot farmer and a free potter (if anything, the opposite). Then, helots would be given weapons that one might imagine were not ideal, giving a penalty on attack or defense, but you don’t want that. One could instead generously think that, because the potter owns a javelin, he should have thrown it a few times (even when peltast training was not really a thing, although what I said about a lack of hoplomachia applies mostly to hoplites), putting him at some advantage when comparing with a helot (although ignoring that a farmer might tend to be in better physical shape than a potter). Because of this, a penalty on range would make a bit more sense.