Balancing ideas poll (Community mod)

[Atrik]

 Disclaimer : Doing this poll on my own initiative. I didn't consult @real_tabasco_sauce about it but I believe that it would be at least interesting to have votes on balancing ideas that are probably going to be introduced in a28; or even maybe, it could be default of how balancing changes are introduced (like it was for the first version of com mod a26).

Ideally votes should be only submitted after testing and building a good opinion on the changes through community mod.

PR links for more infos:
Cheaper Wall
Han Ministers rework
Carth Techs, Bonus and Unit rework
Fort Accuracy
Nerf Capture
Elephants and Longswords tweak
Mauryas Maiden rework

Edited 3 hours ago by Atrik

[Classic-Burger]

Could you give more details about some changes?

[Atrik]

10 minutes ago, Classic-Burger said:

Could you give more details about some changes?

My bad, I need to link the git PR.
Also remember changes are in com mod.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Yes, several of these are in the community mod current version. For the walls stuff you will have to go back 1 version if i remember correctly. I only made PRs for things that I thought were moderately to well received when playtesting. For example, I left out the 3x cav counter, which seemed to go poorly.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

3 hours ago, Atrik said:

it could be default of how balancing changes are introduced (like it was for the first version of com mod a26).

Under that approach, managing discussions and polls took almost as much time as writing the changes. I think its generally more time-efficient to deliver changes to the community mod and see what sticks.

[Deicide4u]

Well, I'm glad that we can all agree on the Carthage changes, lol.

[Atrik]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

managing discussions and polls took almost as much time as writing the changes. I think its generally more time-efficient to deliver changes to the community mod and see what sticks.

Likely to be much more time managing the discussions. The goal isn't to make it easier to write changes (tweaking templates isn't really hard-work to begin with, and require minimal technical skills too, anyone could do it), more like to try to leverage the wisdom of the masses/the community to validate or not balancing ideas.

Having theses polls would open discussions framed around existing PRs (and available in com mod possibly to be tested); avoid oversights, or validate changes you suggests. If all these changes just go from com mod to next release what's the point of calling them "tested". At time of writing, all changes seems to be approved, so if ever some would complain later, you would at least be able to point to the poll and say they were voted in, and players complaining should have contributed to the debate then.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I was taking about polls to add stuff to the community mod ala a26, and I thought that’s what you were bringing up.

It’s worked pretty well I think to use the com mod as a place to experiment and collect feedback.

[Classic-Burger]

Lack of communication. Sincerely 

[Atrik]

On theses changes I only know about the changes to structures (The rest I haven't tested enough or have enough elements to form an strong opinion):

• Cheap Walls, Palisades especially spammed*, are very annoying for the game-play in current context. They just make pathfinder bug (I know it's not a bug, but a feature of the gates, but it feels like a pathfinder bug); when they are a lot of them, even breached, they kinda take too much visual space; most players don't like stalled games... Basically more walls = more frustrations. I'll rather have them actually strong, and hope for a feature to make them easier to snap with other buildings or even terrain.
  *In your PR you say that since they are weaker, they will be spammed less, but that's unlikely to be the case, cheaper but weaker incentivize spam, not  the opposite.
• Fort Accuracy; defenses are already super strong this alpha, especially forts, increasing their ability to kill single units like hero doesn't make sens to me.
• Capture Regeneration Rate of Structures; again, defenses are already very strong currently. But if you really think some famous structures players strategically surround with defensive wheat fields needs be harder to capture, then I would rather increase capture points rather then capture regeneration. This would make capturing and defending easier to learn, because evaluating the effects of regeneration is kinda tricky. A lot of players complain that enemies always capture their structure so easily but themself can't, because they have not yet the experience of the trickiness (exponential effects) of capture regeneration.

[Player of 0AD]

9 minutes ago, Atrik said:

On theses changes I only know about the changes to structures (The rest I haven't tested enough or have enough elements to form an strong opinion):

• Cheap Walls, Palisades especially spammed*, are very annoying for the game-play in current context. They just make pathfinder bug (I know it's not a bug, but a feature of the gates, but it feels like a pathfinder bug); when they are a lot of them, even breached, they kinda take too much visual space; most players don't like stalled games... Basically more walls = more frustrations. I'll rather have them actually strong, and hope for a feature to make them easier to snap with other buildings or even terrain.
  *In your PR you say that since they are weaker, they will be spammed less, but that's unlikely to be the case, cheaper but weaker incentivize spam, not  the opposite.
• Fort Accuracy; defenses are already super strong this alpha, especially forts, increasing their ability to kill single units like hero doesn't make sens to me.
• Capture Regeneration Rate of Structures; again, defenses are already very strong currently. But if you really think some famous structures players strategically surround with defensive wheat fields needs be harder to capture, then I would rather increase capture points rather then capture regeneration. This would make capturing and defending easier to learn, because evaluating the effects of regeneration is kinda tricky. A lot of players complain that enemies always capture their structure so easily but themself can't, because they have not yet the experience of the trickiness (exponential effects) of capture regeneration.

Strongly agree. Experienced players know that Alpha 24 was a big disappointment, because it was very turtle-focussed. Almost everyone hated it. This new community mod version is very similar.

[Deicide4u]

22 minutes ago, Atrik said:

• Cheap Walls, Palisades especially spammed*, are very annoying for the game-play in current context. They just make pathfinder bug (I know it's not a bug, but a feature of the gates, but it feels like a pathfinder bug); when they are a lot of them, even breached, they kinda take too much visual space; most players don't like stalled games... Basically more walls = more frustrations. I'll rather have them actually strong, and hope for a feature to make them easier to snap with other buildings or even terrain.
  *In your PR you say that since they are weaker, they will be spammed less, but that's unlikely to be the case, cheaper but weaker incentivize spam, not  the opposite.
• Fort Accuracy; defenses are already super strong this alpha, especially forts, increasing their ability to kill single units like hero doesn't make sens to me.

1) Currently, walls are almost never used, at least not in any "pro" game I've watched.

2) Defenses are pathetically weak now. Towers are stupid easy to capture, and by the time you get Fortresses (which are otherwise useless now), the enemy has access to siege. And siege wrecks buildings in this game.

I support almost every change laid out here, except adding instant stone mining to Carthage and changing Longswordsmen. 

Edited 17 hours ago by Deicide4u

[real_tabasco_sauce]

The current capture situation is terrible and I'm not sure how you could argue that its fine. It was an unintended consequence of a change to the capture system from a26. Capturing a CC should be a rare move, a hail mary to try and get the ultimate defeat of your enemy, absolutely not the meta.

As for walls, palisades, I can tweak those for further improvements. I think palisade crush can go to 0, and palisade pierce armor can go a little lower too. In late game, even ranged units should contribute substantial damage to palisades, with walls being the more significant obstacle.

[Atrik]

17 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

The current capture situation is terrible and I'm not sure how you could argue that its fine. It was an unintended consequence of a change to the capture system from a26.

The best change with melee re-balance since I play this game, in my view.

 

19 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Capturing a CC should be a rare move,  hail mary to try and get the ultimate defeat of your enemy, absolutely not the meta.

Again, in my view, CC should be a building to be defended, and not a defensive building. If you play greedy and recklessly, then you possibly get punished. It's not hard to garrison your best units in it or to plan some defenses either troops or minimum some palisades. But yes you have to do it. It's not longer enough to farm, ring the bell, then having your CC hold all by itself.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

6 minutes ago, Atrik said:

Again, in my view, CC should be a building to be defended, and not a defensive building. If you play greedy and recklessly, then you possibly get punished. It's not hard to garrison your best units in it or to plan some defenses either troops or minimum some palisades. But yes you have to do it. It's not longer enough to farm, ring the bell, then having your CC hold all by itself.

Oh I agree, but the primary means of doing this shouldn't be done by capturing it, but with siege. And to be clear, filling the CC with civilians doesn't get you the same defense you used to get with women. They basically grant you some time to get stronger units inside.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Would anyone like to comment on 8? I had heard discussion that the splash wasn't very impactful or noticeable.

[Deicide4u]

12 minutes ago, Atrik said:

It's not hard to garrison your best units in it or to plan some defenses either troops or minimum some palisades. But yes you have to do it.

Your best units should be out on the field, defending your base. What are they doing sitting in your CC, twiddling their thumbs?

The enemy tries to capture your CC? Good, he's not attacking your units! Pelt him with arrows, surround his army, etc. 

[Atrik]

14 minutes ago, Deicide4u said:

The enemy tries to capture your CC? Good, he's not attacking your units! Pelt him with arrows, surround his army, etc. 

Yes, there are more frequently capture attempts failing this alpha then when it was so much harder. That's the point, it makes it more dynamic then always going for rams just to take out a undefended civic building. 

[Classic-Burger]

3 hours ago, Atrik said:

The best change with melee re-balance since I play this game, in my view.

 

Again, in my view, CC should be a building to be defended, and not a defensive building. If you play greedy and recklessly, then you possibly get punished. It's not hard to garrison your best units in it or to plan some defenses either troops or minimum some palisades. But yes you have to do it. It's not longer enough to farm, ring the bell, then having your CC hold all by itself.

There's an idea for a "CC Fortress"(late game) version, which would be an upgrade. There's something like that in AoM.

[Classic-Burger]

2 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Would anyone like to comment on 8? I had heard discussion that the splash wasn't very impactful or noticeable.

Do it. As you said, we need test sometimes.

[Classic-Burger]

3 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

The current capture situation is terrible and I'm not sure how you could argue that its fine. It was an unintended consequence of a change to the capture system from a26. Capturing a CC should be a rare move, a hail mary to try and get the ultimate defeat of your enemy, absolutely not the meta.

As for walls, palisades, I can tweak those for further improvements. I think palisade crush can go to 0, and palisade pierce armor can go a little lower too. In late game, even ranged units should contribute substantial damage to palisades, with walls being the more significant obstacle.

Could a piercing armor bonus be given to defenders on the wall?

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, Classic-Burger said:

Could a piercing armor bonus be given to defenders on the wall?

There is an existing armor bonus of 3 hack,pierce,crush

[Dakara]

The link for capture system is wrong

[guerringuerrin]

I think over time we’ve gotten used to a more easily capturable CC, and this has actually had a positive impact on the gameplay. Rams haven’t been completely discarded, tho. Maybe it could be made a bit harder than it is now, but I wouldn’t go back to the previous state. A middle ground could work better. I remember testing this adjustment some time ago, but I’d need to try it again to know if it was actually good.
Personally, I prefer that it remains necessary to use soldiers to strengthen garrisons rather than improving civilians’ capture ability. 

As for the changes to the Carthaginians, it’s hard for me to give an opinion since I don’t usually play that civ and I haven’t tested this community-mod enough to form a clear view.

What I would like to see, however, is a nerf to the fanatics so they stop being such a multipurpose unit and instead become more focused as an anti-cavalry unit. They should remain powerful but be more limited to fighting against cavalry.
Something should also be done about champion cavalry, although to be honest I’m not really sure what exactly. =)

Regarding the debate on the effectiveness of polls, I appreciate the spirit of your proposal, @Atrik. However, it’s difficult to get many players to participate in them, and the most active and experienced players usually don’t. I agree with @real_tabasco_sauce that, at the moment, using the community-mod to introduce changes and receive feedback is the most effective way to get results.

Maybe we should start hosting community-mod games on a regular basis.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

2 hours ago, guerringuerrin said:

What I would like to see, however, is a nerf to the fanatics so they stop being such a multipurpose unit and instead become more focused as an anti-cavalry unit. They should remain powerful but be more limited to fighting against cavalry.
Something should also be done about champion cavalry, although to be honest I’m not really sure what exactly. =)

I think bringing their damage down a little will do the trick for fanas, probably 10% less or so.

For melee champcav, I proposed a relatively simple nerf over on the "champion cavalry improvements" discussion. I could make a quick PR too. It doesn't have to be perfect, we just need something.