Champion cavalry improvements

[TheCJ]

2 hours ago, Atrik said:

All 3 scenarios require melee cavalry to have this additional speed.

I agree. Melee cavalry needs to be faster than ranged cavalry if its supposed to be a counter. And if ranged cav already falls in that range, thats also good.

But it might be better to equalize the speed of all ranged cav to a greater degree (so its not 1.3× to 1.6× but instead maybe 1.3× to 1.4×), then we could reduce the speed of melee cav while still having melee cav quicker than ranged cav (maybe at 1.5× to 1.6×)?

 

Lastly I wanted to add two more things I think are relevant to the cavalry issue as a whole:

For one the entire game is incredibly quick by the numbers; fast queue times, fast build times, fast gather rates. Thus, it feels like cavalry needs to be even faster to keep "the same advantage" as in other, slower rts.

Additionally most games are played on "standard mainland settings" or even ambush nomad or pizza, all of which are very small. You can see this by looking at how often people build additional ccs to get more map control (it doesnt happen often, atleast not in my games). Small maps also make cav more effective, since the moment you see them coming, they are basically already in your economy, thus you need to be very quick in reacting to defend sufficiently. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

2 hours ago, TheCJ said:

Small maps also make cav more effective, since the moment you see them coming, they are basically already in your economy, thus you need to be very quick in reacting to defend sufficiently. 

in my experience, larger maps are stronger for cav because there is more space to exploit the speed difference.

[TheCJ]

6 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

to exploit the speed difference

Well, larger maps are better for hit and run units, like cav archers, since you have more space to micro/run to. But jav cav doesnt really benefit since it cant hit and run (it gets outranged) and neither does melee cav.

For both of those (jav and melee cav), larger maps just mean more time for the enemy to react or build up defenses in preparation. For early rushes, you might get to my base before I have my first additional soldiers out on a small map, but after I got them on a large map; similarly on a large map when approaching lategame, you can scout that your enemy has cav and build palisades/towers before he arrives.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

5 hours ago, TheCJ said:

larger maps just mean more time for the enemy to react or build up defenses in preparation

For rushes yes. But if you try to do an early p3 infantry attack on a large map , and anyone has cav on the enemy team, you are pretty much guaranteed to get surrounded and 2v1ed.

in smaller maps, you are closer to your own buildings, walls, and importantly your allies.

in any case, I’m glad there’s more sentiment for speed balancing, we try out a couple alternatives in community mod versions.

[Fabius]

What about a damage reduction bonus that has spearmen take less damage from cavalry, a reverse multiplier if you will, specifically for melee cavalry. Eg does 0.75 damage against spear/pike troops.

[Guest]

@Fabius there was already a precedent for that, so it's possible.

Elephants had a "Stench" aura in the early alphas. What that actually meant is they had 50% additional damage reduction from cavalry attacks.

[Fabius]

6 minutes ago, Deicide4u said:

@Fabius there was already a precedent for that, so it's possible.

Elephants had a "Stench" aura in the early alphas. What that actually meant is they had 50% additional damage reduction from cavalry attacks.

That is a rather cool perk. I would be in favour of a negative multiplier as an interesting alternative to a positive one. Adding positives takes us closer to Age II levels of Spear/Cav counters, and I would prefer we did not have that degree

[Fabius]

Definitely agree about the speed reduction, current cavalry is way to fast on screen, you barely get any time to react to their coming and going

[LienRag]

On 16/06/2025 at 11:41 PM, TheCJ said:

I agree. Melee cavalry needs to be faster than ranged cavalry if its supposed to be a counter.

Light melee cavalry needs to be faster than ranged cavalry. FTFY.

Ranged cavalry, being light, should certainly be faster than heavy cavalry.

 

If we make disengaging from the enemy quite costly (as it was historically) either in time or in blood (the choice between the two options being made by the player through specific formations), then we can have light cavalry engaging the ranged cavalry and the heavy cavalry coming behind them to finish the job.

 

Is it difficult to implement Charges mechanism with cooldown timer after use ?

That would allow even light infantry to somehow counter ranged cavalry, and more so for champion cavalry.

[LienRag]

1 hour ago, Fabius said:

Definitely agree about the speed reduction, current cavalry is way to fast on screen, you barely get any time to react to their coming and going

That should be addressed by specific anti-cavalry formations (again, as it was historically).

[Fabius]

15 minutes ago, LienRag said:

That should be addressed by specific anti-cavalry formations (again, as it was historically).

Formations do not currently confer bonuses, so while that is a nice idea there is currently no method for application in that manner. So until something alters that, bonuses will have to coded onto the units themselves

[LienRag]

I wasn't thinking about bonus, but about AI : put the vulnerable units behind melee ones, close gaps, have the fast units engage the cavalry and the strong then come and destroy them.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

In the short term, I think we should go with the health nerf for the regular melee champ cav, and for the cataphracts which are so tanky, we can significantly reduce their speed, which will create better differentiation for the cataphracts (possibly also nerf the +100 hp tech for them too).

[Classic-Burger]

38 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

In the short term, I think we should go with the health nerf for the regular melee champ cav, and for the cataphracts which are so tanky, we can significantly reduce their speed, which will create better differentiation for the cataphracts (possibly also nerf the +100 hp tech for them too).

It's a good idea, they were supposed to tire quickly, couldn't fight for long, and were slow for cavalry.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

In the short term, I think we should go with the health nerf for the regular melee champ cav

Bring back 130 HP champion cavalry, lol.

Good changes, thanks.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

https://gitea.wildfiregames.com/0ad/0ad/pulls/8380

[Atrik]

18 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

https://gitea.wildfiregames.com/0ad/0ad/pulls/8380

• Bactrians Chavs are have the same stats as Cataphract in a27, they are used more often for champ cav because of the Persian pop bonus. So they'll be nerfed more then Catapharct, intentionally?
• Your armor and HP changes barely change cav HP equivalent, but lowered it's speed, so they'll be worse at chasing other cavs but as good against infantry. A bit less map control too.

[chrstgtr]

On 24/09/2025 at 11:36 PM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

 (possibly also nerf the +100 hp tech for them too).

I don't like this tech. It lacks originality and is OP. I would prefer it to be replaced with something entirely different. 

3 minutes ago, Atrik said:

• Your armor and HP changes barely change cav HP equivalent, but lowered it's speed, so they'll be worse at chasing other cavs but as good against infantry. A bit less map control too.

I don't get this either. Basically the nerf is to make them slower and lower their special health tech? That's fine, i guess, relative to other cav. But all melee champ cav remains OP vs inf. 

Edited September 26, 2025 by chrstgtr

[real_tabasco_sauce]

13 minutes ago, Atrik said:

Bactrians Chavs are have the same stats as Cataphract in a27, they are used more often for champ cav because of the Persian pop bonus. So they'll be nerfed more then Catapharct, intentionally?

bactrian cav also get the 'cataphract mixin'. So they are currently receiving the same nerf. Do you think they should be nerfed extra? If so, I'd probably disqualify them from getting the nisean war horse tech, making that tech unique to sele.

15 minutes ago, Atrik said:

Your armor and HP changes barely change cav HP equivalent, but lowered it's speed, so they'll be worse at chasing other cavs but as good against infantry. A bit less map control too.

yeah that's the idea. It creates a more noticeable difference between cataphract units and regular champ cav.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

15 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

It lacks originality and is OP. I would prefer it to be replaced with something entirely different. 

me too, but I don't have an idea to replace it. So since we are talking about nerfs, better to just nerf it for now. (+100 hp is crazy)

[Atrik]

25 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

bactrian cav also get the 'cataphract mixin'. So they are currently receiving the same nerf. Do you think they should be nerfed extra?

I got confused by the template name "cataphract mixin", thinking it was applying only to cataphract. No I don't think they need additional nerf, the speed debuff might already remove too much of there utility and still have them as strong as frontliner. I guess we'll see, if the counter damage increase for spears have been dismissed already.

46 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Basically the nerf is to make them slower and lower their special health tech? That's fine, i guess, relative to other cav. But all melee champ cav remains OP vs inf. 

Yes but actually 'normal' champ cav only get HP debuff, so net nerf, against all including against inf there (If I'm not mistaken again).

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Yes that’s right @Atrik. Although both those cataphracts also access the tech I nerfed by about 50%.

so through that tech they get another nerf.

i think it will be interesting to see how speed vs hp nerfs play out. But ultimately we just need to get some nerf out there.