Narrative Campaign General Discussion?

[Lion.Kanzen]

 

Some thoughts. People hate tutorials, I'm one of them.

It shouldn't feel like a tutorial at all.

[Lion.Kanzen]

36 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

 

Some thoughts. People hate tutorials, I'm one of them.

It shouldn't feel like a tutorial at all.

The tutorial should teach you how to withstand a rush.

Other scenarios we have to leave quite free to discover.

Discovery  It's like when you get burned and you learn that the fire burns you.

You make mistakes and you learn.

Then the instruction will be simple, "defeat your enemy".

This would be fine for a second scenario.

But the scenario must be somewhat difficult but not impossible.

By now you should know the basic controls.

Research: This works if we use the current tutorial scenario to practice and this one is full of information, basically the player learn from the tips, learn to play info and other tips.

I honestly don't know how to use this in a few scenarios, some scenarios we should teach loading screen tips.

---Edit: I think I get it.

In the first scenario we can put a lot of information, in the second one we can put more sandbox style.----

 

Research is the theoretical part and discovery is the practical part.

Acclimation is similar to Starcraft campaign: is like training for a harsh climate like multiplayer.It's like I said above about including a rush and a tough situation to overcome.

The third one could very well be a rush that destroys a lot of our original base. It could be full of action, full of enemies and attacks.

The fourth is more of the same but in a different situation, perhaps an ambush.

The fifth we return to the comfort of exploration and without so much pressure.

In the sixth we teach how the armor mechanics, bonuses and unit stats work, something boring, as well as teaching the economy in depth.

Edited December 31, 2024 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

The third one could very well be a rush that destroys a lot of our original base. It could be full of action, full of enemies and attacks

 

 

Constant harassment from enemies.

The remaster does it terribly.

The first one was more difficult than the "Definitive Edition".

Edited December 31, 2024 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Then the instruction will be simple, "defeat your enemy".

This would be fine for a second scenario.

But the scenario must be somewhat difficult but not impossible.

It's a stage without an enemy to attack, it's more for learning how to attack.

It's not stressful.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Research: This works if we use the current tutorial scenario to practice and this one is full of information, basically the player learn from the tips, learn to play info and other tips.

Very full scripted and full of tips.

Very informative, easy.

 

[ShadowOfHassen]

I thought we already had an outline on what we were teaching in each scenario...

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 hours ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

I thought we already had an outline on what we were teaching in each scenario...

It will depend on how we handle the scenarios.

These are just ideas, some of this had already been considered.

I still have no idea about the second scenario.

[ShadowOfHassen]

22 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

It will depend on how we handle the scenarios.

These are just ideas, some of this had already been considered.

I still have no idea about the second scenario.

I’m pretty sure @Vanthahad a 4 scenario plan that we had worked out .  Or am I getting things confused?

[Stan`]

I think @Lion.Kanzen wasn't there when you devised that plan.

[Lion.Kanzen]

58 minutes ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

I’m pretty sure @Vanthahad a 4 scenario plan that we had worked out .  Or am I getting things confused?

I actually didn't read that. I only know that Carthago Nova was accepted.

[Vantha]

Alright, I revised and updated our old outline. Here it is, to get everyone up-to-date with what we've got so far:

Quote

Prologue:
Famous Carthaginian leader Hamilcar Barca has died fighting Iberian tribes. He is succeeded by his son-in-law, Hasdrubal, (thus Hannibal's brother-in-law) who seeks to soldify Carthagian influence in Iberia. Unlike Hamilcar, however, he is known to prefer diplomacy over war.

 

1. Scenario

Plot: Hasdrubal has arrived on the east coast of Iberia with the plan to found a new city. He is leading a small group of men and woman to settle them there. But the first thing to do is to search for a good spot...

Goal: explore the map for a spot to build the colony, fight off some wild boars, collect enough treasures for a first civic center and build it

Concepts:

moving around the camera

selecting units

giving orders*

moving units

fog of war and minimap

collecting treasures

fighting enemy units

building structures*

 2. Scenario

Plot: Hasdrubal is building up the new settlement, and has to defend against a group of bandits.

Goal: develop a starting economy, survive a small raid, and advance to town phase

 

Concepts:

gathering resources* and placing dropsites

training units*

building houses to increase the population limit*

researching technologies*

unit classes

raising and ending alerts

basics of combat

 

Resources to collect:

wood

food

 

Units to train:

Women

Citizen Infantry

Citizen Cavalry

 

Structures to build:

Dropsites - Farmsteads and Storehouses

Houses

Fields

(Coral?)

Barracks

Stable

Outposts

 

Technologies to research:

improve gather rates

Town Phase

 

3. Scenario

 

Plot:
Perhaps the raiders last time were more than just a group of bandits? Allied Iberian leaders warn of a certain tribe not willing to accept the Carthaginian dominance. And that they could be planning an armed uprising. Hasdrubal sends out scouts who indeed find a small fortified base nearby. Attempts to make friendly contact fail. This leaves Hasdrubal no choice but to take over it by force. Afraid of a counterattack, he upgrades the fortifications and after a short while the enemy indeed returns with a large force and attempts to retake the base. Meanwhile, the new-founded city is growing larger and larger.

Goals: Scout for strategically important positions, take over an enemy camp, fortify it, protect it against a large recapture attempt, advance to city phase

 

Concepts: /

 

Resources to collect:

Stone

Metal

 

Units to train:

Merchants

(Mercenaries)

 

Structures to build:

Forge

Sentry Towers and Stone Towers

Palisades and Walls

Market

 

Technologies to research:

increase unit damage

increase unit resistance

increase population bonus of houses

upgrade sentry tower to stone tower

enhance stone towers

 

4. Scenario

Plot:
Despite their defeat, the rebels don't submit. Afraid the resistance could spread, Hasdrubal is advised to put an end to it as soon as possible. He spends some time raising a bigger and stronger army and eventually marches to the rebellious tribe's main stronghold. After an epic battle, the Carthaginians emerge victorious and manage to completely destroy it. The rebels recognise their defeat and with no protection left have no choice but to comply. A treaty is made.

Goals: develop a strong army, conduct a full-scale attack, destroy the enemy’s city, actually win the game

 

Concepts:

building a second Civic Center

using Siege Engines

healing wounded units

 

Units to train:

Champions

Heroes

Siege Engines - Battering Rams and Catapults

Healers

 

 

Structures to build:

Arsenal

Hero and Champion training facilities

Fortress

Temple

second Civic Center

(Wonder?)

 

Technologies to research:

unlocking Champions

increasing damage and resistance of Siege Engines

(Will to Fight?)

(Glorious Expansion?)

 

 

Epilogue:
The city rises to become Carthage's most important military base in Iberia. It is were Hannibal later sets out on his famous campaign. During the second Punic War, however, the city is besieged and taken by the Roman general Scipio and renamed to "Carthago Nova". But under Roman rule, the city only continues to thrive and eventually grows to become one of the most important trading posts in the Western Mediterrenean. Some hundred years later Carthago Nova was even made capital of the province Hispania Carthaginiensis. The city's significance only declined with the fall of the Western Roman. But it was never fully destroyed  and eventually evolved into today's city of Cartagena in Murcia, Spain.

Some notes: the first scenario is meant to teach basic controls and UI so we can fully focus gameplay strategy in the other ones. It's only supposed to last somewhere 5 and 10 minutes. The second, third and fourth scenario cover the Village, Town, and City phases respectively.

It is possible to set custom victory conditions from scenario scripts and the idea is to make it the winning goal of the second scenario to reach Town Phase, and of the third one to reach City Phase. And to let them build on each other, so at the beginning of the third and fourth one just tell the player "Do what you did before." and start guiding again once the player has reached a point he hasn't been at before.
For technologies, my idea is to not individually instruct to research every single important one, but rather tell the player "This structure has important technologies. Periodically check for available ones here and research them as soon as you comfortably can." and remind them to do so if they forget about it.

Nothing is set into stone. Especially the story might need some refinement. Any ideas how we could include Mastia? And do you think it's an issue that we have Hasdrubal the Fair fighting battles?

Any other suggestions?

(Personally, I'd not do more than 4 scenarios, though, or else the length could scare off players)

[ShadowOfHassen]

2 hours ago, Vantha said:

Any other suggestions?

The only thought I have is make the other tribe be the aggressor so in the tutorial the player doesn’t have any moral quandary about attacking 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

2 hours ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

The only thought I have is make the other tribe be the aggressor so in the tutorial the player doesn’t have any moral quandary about attacking 

Good observation. Perhaps after a scenario or two of war, the player finds it beneficial to ally with said enemy and halt hostilities. Run the full gamut. So then the player learns about the diplomacy and trading features that way, by making peace with a faction you were at war with. Common enemy? (Romans are encroaching now)

[ShadowOfHassen]

2 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Good observation. Perhaps after a scenario or two of war, the player finds it beneficial to ally with said enemy and halt hostilities. Run the full gamut. So then the player learns about the diplomacy and trading features that way, by making peace with a faction you were at war with. Common enemy? (Romans are encroaching now)

Perhaps … we should teach alliances last I remember we were going to just have an allied group help you in one of the scenarios but this could work to as long as @Vantha and @Lion.Kanzen are ok with it 

[Lion.Kanzen]

6 hours ago, Vantha said:

Hasdrubal

"Hasdrubal the Fair"

 

6 hours ago, Vantha said:

survive a small raid

Difficulty should be driven by raid size.

[Lion.Kanzen]

6 hours ago, Vantha said:

include Mastia?

Maybe if there is room. Make it a neighbor of Carthago Nova. North near the edge of the map.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

Perhaps … we should teach alliances last I remember we were going to just have an allied group help you in one of the scenarios but this could work to as long as @Vantha and @Lion.Kanzen are ok with it 

I'm ok.

If I'm not mistaken, Hannibal's father dies in a great battle. What can we make of that?

"Hamilcar probably landed at Gades in the summer of 237 BC. Whatever direct territorial control Carthage had had in the past in Iberia,"

Hamilcar's immediate objective was to secure access to the gold and silver mines of Sierra Morena, either by direct and indirect control.[104] Negotiations with the "Tartessian" tribes were successfully concluded, but Hamilcar faced hostility from the Turdetani or Turduli tribe, near the foothills of modern Seville and Córdoba. The Iberians had support from Celtiberian tribes and were under the command of two chieftains, Istolatios and his brother. Hamilcar defeated the confederates, killed the leaders and several of their soldiers, while he released a number of prisoners and incorporated 3,000 of the enemy into his army. The Turdetani surrendered.

Carthaginians may have taken control of the mining operations and introduced new technologies to increase production.

[...]

Orissus, chieftain of the Oretani tribe, came to the assistance of the besieged town. There are several versions to what happened next: Orissus offered to aid Hamilcar, then attacked the Punic army, and Hamilcar drowned during a retreat across the Jucar river;[115] the Oretani sent ox-driven carts to the Carthaginian position, then set them on fire and Hamilcar died in the resulting melee;[116] Hamilcar accepted an offer to parley, then led the enemy in one direction while Hannibal and Hasdrubal Barca fled in the opposite direction. According to Appian, Hamilcar was thrown from his horse and drowned in a river,[117] but Polybius says he fell in battle in an unknown corner of Iberia against an unnamed tribe.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamilcar_Barca

There were several battles before Hamilcar's death.

[Grautvornix]

Sounds great - for a cool "prequel" to the introductory tutorial! 

[Lion.Kanzen]

11 minutes ago, Grautvornix said:

Sounds great - for a cool "prequel" to the introductory tutorial! 

It's not a prequel, things happened before of 237 BC.

[Vantha]

On 02/01/2025 at 1:43 PM, ShadowOfHassen said:

The only thought I have is make the other tribe be the aggressor so in the tutorial the player doesn’t have any moral quandary about attacking 

On 02/01/2025 at 3:55 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Good observation. Perhaps after a scenario or two of war, the player finds it beneficial to ally with said enemy and halt hostilities. Run the full gamut. So then the player learns about the diplomacy and trading features that way, by making peace with a faction you were at war with. Common enemy? (Romans are encroaching now)

I think it's a great idea. I was originally not planning on teaching the player the diplomacy system, but this is a nice opportunity to do so. We could make scenario 3 focus on fortifying the city and repelling an assault. But in the end actually negotiate an alliance with the attackers: For instance, gifting them some food to help with a current shortage (and maybe arranging some intermarriages). And in exchange the player gets access to the Iberian embassy building in the next scenario (therefore the ability to hire mercenaries) to use in the large attack in the end (against some Roman target).

[ShadowOfHassen]

13 minutes ago, Vantha said:

I think it's a great idea. I was originally not planning on teaching the player the diplomacy system, but this is a nice opportunity to do so. We could make scenario 3 focus on fortifying the city and repelling an assault. But in the end actually negotiate an alliance with the attackers: For instance, gifting them some food to help with a current shortage (and maybe arranging some intermarriages). And in exchange the player gets access to the Iberian embassy building in the next scenario (therefore the ability to hire mercenaries) to use in the large attack in the end (against some Roman target).

That sounds like a plan we’d just have to design scenario 3 so the player couldn’t conceivably brute force their way to victory without becoming allies but we should be able to figure that out .

[Vantha]

22 minutes ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

That sounds like a plan we’d just have to design scenario 3 so the player couldn’t conceivably brute force their way to victory without becoming allies but we should be able to figure that out .

But I wouldn't force the player into losing the battle either. Maybe when the attackers realize they can't breach the walls they simply retreat (they've been repelled, but far from defeated). That way it makes more sense why both sides are willing to sign the treaty.

[Vantha]

Here is what I suggest for scenario 4:

I think the campaign should end in a big battle. 0ad is a game about warfare after all, so that's what people install the game for. Preferably, the player should get to carry out an attack this time. Mainly, because the tutorial should teach how to do that (and in scenario 3, the player only defends). But also because it simply a lot more fun from a role-playing perspective.

However, we need a target. It can't be the Iberians this time since we made peace with them in scenario 3. The obvious (and ideal) choice would be Rome, but they weren't present in the region at the time at all (and I'll explain why that's important later).

Now, it's not as impossible as it may seem to find historical events that suit our needs. Because here is what happened after Hasdrubal founded Carthago Nova:

Quote

From this base [Carthago Nova], he [Hasdrubal] proceeded to the north, conquering many towns, including Hemeroscopium, Alonis, and Alicante, which were Greek colonies that belonged to Massilia, an ally of Rome.

(From https://www.livius.org/articles/person/hasdrubal-2-the-fair/)

The city of Massalia was actually quite an important power in the region (and itself has a pretty interesting backstory, it was even candidate for the subject of this campaign at some point). Plus, it's Greek (and so its colonies), which allows us to include yet another popular ancient civilisation that players might have prior knowledge of.

Of the said towns, Hemeroscopium ("Hemeroskopeion" in Greek) seems like the best choice (it's at least the one I was able to find the most about online). And it has the best-sounding name . So, I'd make it the final objective of the scenario to conquer this town.

Now, it was not as big as one would wish, so the if there was a battle it was probably quite small and we have no historical record of it. That'd be the only drawback.

However, after taking over the city we can have the player sign the Ebro Treaty (which among other cities was requested from Rome by Massalia). On the one hand, it prohibited Hasdrubal from marching further and taking more cities, but also granted much of the entire Iberian peninsula to Carthage (which is what Hasdrubal set out to do at the beginning of the campaign). And we can emphasise his diplomatic skills again. That would be such a satisfying end in my opinion.

[ShadowOfHassen]

4 minutes ago, Vantha said:

Here is what I suggest for scenario 4:

I think the campaign should end in a big battle. 0ad is a game about warfare after all, so that's what people install the game for. Preferably, the player should get to carry out an attack this time. Mainly, because the tutorial should teach how to do that (and in scenario 3, the player only defends). But also because it simply a lot more fun from a role-playing perspective.

However, we need a target. It can't be the Iberians this time since we made peace with them in scenario 3. The obvious (and ideal) choice would be Rome, but they weren't present in the region at the time at all (and I'll explain why that's important later).

Now, it's not as impossible as it may seem to find historical events that suit our needs. Because here is what happened after Hasdrubal founded Carthago Nova:

The city of Massalia was actually quite an important power in the region (and itself has a pretty interesting backstory, it was even candidate for the subject of this campaign at some point). Plus, it's Greek (and so its colonies), which allows us to include yet another popular ancient civilisation that players might have prior knowledge of.

Of the said towns, Hemeroscopium ("Hemeroskopeion" in Greek) seems like the best choice (it's at least the one I was able to find the most about online). And it has the best-sounding name . So, I'd make it the final objective of the scenario to conquer this town.

Now, it was not as big as one would wish, so the if there was a battle it was probably quite small and we have no historical record of it. That'd be the only drawback.

However, after taking over the city we can have the player sign the Ebro Treaty (which among other cities was requested from Rome by Massalia). On the one hand, it prohibited Hasdrubal from marching further and taking more cities, but also granted much of the entire Iberian peninsula to Carthage (which is what Hasdrubal set out to do at the beginning of the campaign). And we can emphasise his diplomatic skills again. That would be such a satisfying end in my opinion.

Sounds like a good plan just don't worry about the size too much. Scale in 0 A.D. isn't exactly 1:1 to real life anyway.

[Vantha]

1 hour ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

Sounds like a good plan just don't worry about the size too much. Scale in 0 A.D. isn't exactly 1:1 to real life anyway.

Yeah, but wouldn't it still be more exciting to fight e.g. the Battle of Cannae?