Narrative Campaign General Discussion?

[Grautvornix]

Well, I believe all this is intended to serve as background info/justification why this scenario is interesting. The training campaign description must be much, much simpler, of course.

I guess the important points are:

1. learn to move units and fight in a small battle
2. learn essential parts of building a colony (CC, farms, wood, etc..)
3. learn structured build-up
4. learn about diplomacy/trade
5. learn fighting in larger campaigns

We just need a suitable story around this.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, Grautvornix said:

learn to move units and fight in a small battle

Yes, I was thinking that in the first map, control groups, There you will have a mercenary army available and you will concentrate on fighting against different Kushite invaders.

In that first map you will have to defend and counterattack as well as capture settlements, All this along the Nile River from Karnak.

We will participate in the recapture of Egyptian territory.

[Genava55]

2 hours ago, Grautvornix said:

We just need a suitable story around this.

1. The youth of Alexander the Great, tutored by Aristotle. He then started his military career against the Thracians and Illyrians. Finally, he fought decisively during the Battle of Thebes and Battle of Chaeronea. Several events that could be used for a tutorial. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great
2. The founding of Marseille (Massalia), we could use the myth as a basis for a more free interpretation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_myth_of_Marseille
3. The Ionian Revolt, prelude to the Greco-Persian Wars. Aristagoras is an interesting character. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionian_Revolt

 

[Vantha]

I want to express again that I believe it would be best to opt for a simpler, single-stranded story. The idea of founding a colony fits well in my opinion. Let's just pick an interesting, and somewhat important colony and follow its rise through the campaign. We don't need a crazy amount of content.

3 hours ago, Grautvornix said:

• learn to move units and fight in a small battle
• learn essential parts of building a colony (CC, farms, wood, etc..)
• learn structured build-up
• learn about diplomacy/trade
• learn fighting in larger campaigns

Don't you see how these steps fit together perfectly with the establishment of a colony?

[ShadowOfHassen]

3 hours ago, Vantha said:

Thirdly, and most importantly, (I admit my experience with other RTS's is fairly limited) but the storyline in general seems too complex for a tutorial campaign. I think we should avoid time and place jumps entirely. And limit the number of characters as much as we can. Battus, Psamtek, Apries, Amasis, Cyrene, Naukratis, Daphnae... I did a decent bit of research on the topic and still don't understand all connections. If I as a new player encountered this campaign, I would feel helplessly overwhelmed by the story. I believe what we need is one city, one protagonist (the colony's "oikistes"/founder), one conflict, and one straightforward storyline.

Honestly, I'd argue for telling a somewhat Historical Fiction tale about a colony that we know very little about. That way, we can say it's Historical Fiction and don't have to sacrifice history for a solid tutorial campaign. We'd tell them it's how we guess what happened, of course, but real life really doesn't match up to a good tutorial system.

[ShadowOfHassen]

2 minutes ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

Honestly, I'd argue for telling a somewhat Historical Fiction tale about a colony that we know very little about. That way, we can say it's Historical Fiction and don't have to sacrifice history for a solid tutorial campaign. We'd tell them it's how we guess what happened, of course, but real life really doesn't match up to a good tutorial system.

Oops I didn't see the replies after this. Still, my point stands.

 

I kind of like @Genava55's Massalia idea. But would we have to make a new civilization? I think we'd want to keep to an already made Civ A. because it'd be easier and B. the player could hop right into free play/ online and be familiar with a civilization. (We just swap out the hero with a named one.)

I think it might be a good idea to use Athens because it's a fairly standard civilization. I see it almost as a "generic" civilization of all the Hellenistic Civs (which are a large part of our civilizations.) But more experienced players can disagree, and they'd be probably right.

[Lion.Kanzen]

26 minutes ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

kind of like @Genava55's Massalia idea. But would we have to make a new civilization? I think we'd want to keep to an already made Civ A. because it'd be easier and B. the player could hop right into free play/ online and be familiar with a civilization. (We just swap out the hero with a named one.)

The only problem with Massalia is that it doesn't lead us to any other story.

Neukratis connects well with the Ionian revolt.

If you read the events that led to this.

The Greek mercenaries get into trouble in Egypt and Asia Minor.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inaros_II

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 hours ago, Grautvornix said:

learn to move units and fight in a small battle

The first map, the defense of Egypt.

In this map you defend the Nile River from the Kushite invaders.

1- You learn everything with the mechanics of groups, formations, grouping units, stances, using hoplites in the front line. Cretan archers in the rearguard.

2- You learn to use ships to protect units.

3- You learn how to heal your soldiers.

4- You learn how to capture buildings.

5- You learn to counter cavalry.

All this on a map similar to this one.

[Genava55]

1 hour ago, Vantha said:

The idea of founding a colony fits well in my opinion.

Philip II of Macedon rebuilt Stagira in exchange for Aristotle tutoring his son https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagira_(ancient_city)

[Genava55]

56 minutes ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

But would we have to make a new civilization?

No. This issue will arise constantly, for every Greek city state mentioned in any remarkable stories.

[ShadowOfHassen]

15 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Philip II of Macedon rebuilt Stagira in exchange for Aristotle tutoring his son https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagira_(ancient_city)

That is a cool idea, and it'd allow us to link it to a coming campaign (Alexander the Great) you could even have Aristotle teaching the game kind of.

The one thing is to make sure it's accessible to even beginners for RTS we need (in my opinion) the first campaign cover basic movement, fighting and some basic treasure stuff (NOT a full battle though) Alexander on a hunt??? After that, you need one on economy and a little fighting (economy in RTS is tricky) and finally one that's focused on the military (Ships, rams etc.)

[Genava55]

1 hour ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

The one thing is to make sure it's accessible to even beginners for RTS we need (in my opinion) the first campaign cover basic movement, fighting and some basic treasure stuff (NOT a full battle though) Alexander on a hunt??? After that, you need one on economy and a little fighting (economy in RTS is tricky) and finally one that's focused on the military (Ships, rams etc.)

1. Alexander learnt to hunt during his childhood and continued to hunt during his adolescence and adult time.
2. He was learning with his companions Ptolemy, Hephaistion, and Cassander at the same spot. So probably they did hunt.
3. There is a minor battle against the Maedi and the founding of a town, Alexandrupolis. https://www.livius.org/articles/place/alexandrupolis/

 

[ShadowOfHassen]

12 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

1. Alexander learnt to hunt during his childhood and continued to hunt during his adolescence and adult time.
2. He was learning with his companions Ptolemy, Hephaistion, and Cassander at the same spot. So probably they did hunt.
3. There is a minor battle against the Maedi and the founding of a town, Alexandrupolis. https://www.livius.org/articles/place/alexandrupolis/

 

That could work. It would give us a continuation into history, and we could make Aristotle "Teach" the game mechanics. I like it.

 

Any other thoughts or things I'm missing?

[Genava55]

Single player campaign references:

Spoiler

 

What quality should we aim for?

[Lion.Kanzen]

There was a tutorial campaign in Empire Earth.

 

 

[Grautvornix]

3 hours ago, Vantha said:

I want to express again that I believe it would be best to opt for a simpler, single-stranded story. The idea of founding a colony fits well in my opinion. Let's just pick an interesting, and somewhat important colony and follow its rise through the campaign. We don't need a crazy amount of content.

Don't you see how these steps fit together perfectly with the establishment of a colony?

Of course I do!

[Vantha]

I think the idea with Alexander the Great could indeed work out. Having Aristotle teach the game would be really cool.

 

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

What quality should we aim for?

What do you mean with "quality"? I've heard that the engine supports cinematic cutscenes to some degree and I might look into it eventually, but I think it's best to focus on the gamepay first. Voice narration would be nice to have as well, but with it comes the hurdle of translation.

 

What we should do is create a long list of specific things we want to teach the player over the course of the entire campaign. Then bring them in logical order, divide them into multiple chunks and assign one to each tutorial scenario. And then try how it fits together with the story.

 

Some past efforts:

 

[Vantha]

13 hours ago, Vantha said:

What we should do is create a long list of specific things we want to teach the player over the course of the entire campaign. Then bring them in logical order, divide them into multiple chunks and assign one to each tutorial scenario. And then try how it fits together with the story.

Here is such a list by @Freagarachfrom the above-linked thread:

Spoiler

• Basic interactions (for those compleatly new to RTS)
  • Selecting entities
  • Giving orders
  • Notion of resources and population
  • Entity creation (and stopping to create)
• Basic economy
  • Resource gathering
  • Corralling
  • Dropsite position (mind the docks!)
  • Fishing
  • Treasures
  • Territory
• Basic warfare
  • Diplomacy
  • Building defenses
  • Capturing
  • Unit classes
• 0 A.D. interactions
  • Batch training
  • Selection modifiers (idle, military, deselect)
  • Queuing orders
  • Secondary orders
  • Order-one
  • Pushing orders to the front
  • Structure snapping and turning
• Advanced economy
  • Diplomacy (tribute, shared vision and dropsites)
  • Trading (international bonus)
  • Bartering
• Advanced warfare
  • Scouting
  • Siege
  • Loot
  • Strategic positions
  • Covering retreat
• Other tips and tricks
  • Keep producing entities. Always.
  • Tips from pro players?

 

It's a pretty good start. Is there anything you would add/remove?

[Lion.Kanzen]

Regardless of the scenario or we need a couple of features to create scenarios, that is, for the Atlas.

Being able to block units, buildings and technologies in scenarios.

This feature exists since AoE I.

It is used as a handicap in many scenarios, other times for historical reasons.

[Vantha]

2 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Regardless of the scenario or we need a couple of features to create scenarios, that is, for the Atlas.

Being able to block units, buildings and technologies in scenarios.

This feature exists since AoE I.

It is used as a handicap in many scenarios, other times for historical reasons.

This is fully possible in scenario scripts already.

[Lion.Kanzen]

5 hours ago, Vantha said:

This is fully possible in scenario scripts already.

I would like to see options in the atlas interface.

There should be a ticket for that task.

[Vantha]

Here's the outline I was able to come up with.
(I deliberately left out ships and naval warfare for now as I feel like all that should probably be taught in a seperate, fourth scenario.)

(Core concepts (marked with a *) need more detailed (skippable) explanations for player new to the genre.)

Spoiler

1. Scenario

Goal: develop a starting economy, survive a small raid by the enemy, and advance to town phase

 

Concepts:

selecting and giving orders*

gathering resources* and placing dropsites

training units*

building structures*

building houses to increase the population limit*

research technologies*

unit classes

raising and ending alerts

basics of combat

 

Resources to collect:

wood

food

 

Units to train:

Women

Citizen Infantry

Citizen Cavalry

 

Structures to build:

Dropsites - Farmsteads and Storehouses

Houses

Fields

(Coral?)

Barracks

Stable

Outposts

 

Technologies to research:

improve gather rates

Town Phase

 

 

 

 

2. Scenario

Goal: Scout for strategically important positions, take over an enemy camp, fortify it, protect it against a large recapture attempt, advance to city phase

 

Concepts:

exploring the map*

Territory - roots, expansion, decay*

defensive fortifications and garrisons

defending against attacks

capturing

Bartering

(Trading?)

 

Resources to collect:

Stone

Metal

 

Units to train:

Merchants

(Mercenaries)

 

Structures to build:

Forge

Sentry Towers and Stone Towers

Palisades and Walls

Market

 

Technologies to research:

increase unit damage

increase unit resistance

increase population bonus of houses

upgrade sentry tower to stone tower

enhance stone towers

 

3. Scenario

Goals: develop a strong army, conduct a full-scale attack, destroy the enemy’s city, actually win the game

 

Concepts:

building a second Civic Center

using Siege Engines

healing wounded units

 

Units to train:

Champions

Heroes

Siege Engines - Battering Rams and Catapults

Healers

 

 

Structures to build:

Arsenal

Hero and Champion training facilities

Fortress

Temple

second Civic Center

(Wonder?)

 

Technologies to research:

unlocking Champions

increasing damage and resistance of Siege Engines

(Will to Fight?)

(Glorious Expansion?)

 

 

 

 

 

As already planned, the guided tutorial section encompasses three scenarios, the first one focusing on the Village Phase, the second one the Town Phase, and the third one on the City Phase.
It is possible to set custom victory conditions from scenario scripts and my idea is to make it the winning goal of the first scenario to reach Town Phase, and of the second one to reach City Phase. And to let them build on each other, so at the beginning of the second and third one to just tell the player "Do what you did before." and start guiding again when the player has reached point they haven't been to before.
For technologies, I would not individually order the player to research every single important one, but rather tell the player "This structure has important technologies. Periodically check for available one here and research them as soon as you comfortably can." and remind them to do so if they forget about it.

 

Any criticism/suggestion?

Any ideas how to embed the story?

Edited October 24 by Vantha

[Vantha]

20 hours ago, Vantha said:

Any criticism/suggestion?

Any features you would include/remove? What do you think of the length of the individual learning blocks? Their number of 3 is not set into stone at all, it just conveniently aligns with the three phases. If you think the learning content is too concentrated at the moment, the three blocks could be split up further. And the other way around too.

 

20 hours ago, Vantha said:

Any ideas how to embed the story?

@ShadowOfHassen @Lion.Kanzen @Genava55

There have been some really good concepts in this thread so far...

[ShadowOfHassen]

21 hours ago, Vantha said:

Here's the outline I was able to come up with.
(I deliberately left out ships and naval warfare for now as I feel like all that should probably be taught in a seperate, fourth scenario.)

(Core concepts (marked with a *) need more detailed (skippable) explanations for player new to the genre.)

  Hide contents

1. Scenario

Goal: develop a starting economy, survive a small raid by the enemy, and advance to town phase

 

Concepts:

selecting and giving orders*

gathering resources* and placing dropsites

training units*

building structures*

building houses to increase the population limit*

research technologies*

unit classes

raising and ending alerts

basics of combat

 

Resources to collect:

wood

food

 

Units to train:

Women

Citizen Infantry

Citizen Cavalry

 

Structures to build:

Dropsites - Farmsteads and Storehouses

Houses

Fields

(Coral?)

Barracks

Stable

Outposts

 

Technologies to research:

improve gather rates

Town Phase

 

 

 

 

2. Scenario

Goal: Scout for strategically important positions, take over an enemy camp, fortify it, protect it against a large recapture attempt, advance to city phase

 

Concepts:

exploring the map*

Territory - roots, expansion, decay*

defensive fortifications and garrisons

defending against attacks

capturing

Bartering

(Trading?)

 

Resources to collect:

Stone

Metal

 

Units to train:

Merchants

(Mercenaries)

 

Structures to build:

Forge

Sentry Towers and Stone Towers

Palisades and Walls

Market

 

Technologies to research:

increase unit damage

increase unit resistance

increase population bonus of houses

upgrade sentry tower to stone tower

enhance stone towers

 

3. Scenario

Goals: develop a strong army, conduct a full-scale attack, destroy the enemy’s city, actually win the game

 

Concepts:

building a second Civic Center

using Siege Engines

healing wounded units

 

Units to train:

Champions

Heroes

Siege Engines - Battering Rams and Catapults

Healers

 

 

Structures to build:

Arsenal

Hero and Champion training facilities

Fortress

Temple

second Civic Center

(Wonder?)

 

Technologies to research:

unlocking Champions

increasing damage and resistance of Siege Engines

(Will to Fight?)

(Glorious Expansion?)

 

 

 

 

 

As already planned, the guided tutorial section encompasses three scenarios, the first one focusing on the Village Phase, the second one the Town Phase, and the third one on the City Phase.

For technologies, I would not individually order the player to research every single important one, but rather tell the player "This structure has important technologies. Periodically check for available one here and research them as soon as you comfortably can." and remind them to do so if they forget about it.

 

Any criticism/suggestion?

Any ideas how to embed the story?

I like that outline a few things.

I'd add a scenario 0 that covers treasure gathering, moving 101, exploring the map, combat 101, leveling up and pull those objectives partly out of the other lessons.

This is partly because I personally remember struggling with RTS's controls, and a lower stake map dedicated to that would be nice. Also if we do this the first scenario can be focused more on economy and less on the person struggling with left-clicking and right-clicking. (It happens and we should account for it.

 

Quote

It is possible to set custom victory conditions from scenario scripts and my idea is to make it the winning goal of the first scenario to reach Town Phase, and of the second one to reach City Phase. And to let them build on each other, so at the beginning of the second and third one to just tell the player "Do what you did before." and start guiding again when the player has reached point they haven't been to before.

To make it easier to fit with to a story can we gray out upgrades until we want them to do it? A player could accidentally break the tutorial otherwise.

 

I have a simple enough idea how to incorporate the basics of naval warfare If we have a scenario 0 to cover some of the material we can have a dock in scenario one, and we can just have scenario two have boats as well. If there's some really high-tech stratagems I'm missing that might not work, but it might.

I can see Athenian colony working here, or an Alexander the Great, if we didn't do boats. Personally, I like the Athenian colony better, but that could be because its my idea.

Edited October 25 by ShadowOfHassen

[Lion.Kanzen]

23 minutes ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

 

I can see Athenian colony working here, or an Alexander the Great, if we didn't do boats. Personally, I like the Athenian colony better, but that could be because its my idea.

There is the idea of the Greek colony in Cyrene.

Cyrene, also sometimes anglicized as Kyrene, was an ancient Greek colony and Roman city near present-day Shahhat in northeastern Libya in North Africa. It was part of the Pentapolis, an important group of five cities in the region, and gave the area its classical and early modern name Cyrenaica.

By the fifth century BC, they had expanded their control over the other cities of Cyrenaica. It became the seat of the Cyrenaics, a school of philosophy in the fourth century BC, founded by Aristippus, a disciple of Socrates. In the Hellenistic Age, the city alternated between being part of Ptolemaic Egypt and the capital of an independent kingdom. It was also an important Jewish hub. In 96 BC, it passed to the Roman Republic and became part of the province of Crete and Cyrenaica.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrene,_Libya