Narrative Campaign General Discussion?

[Grautvornix]

Well, I believe all this is intended to serve as background info/justification why this scenario is interesting. The training campaign description must be much, much simpler, of course.

I guess the important points are:

1. learn to move units and fight in a small battle
2. learn essential parts of building a colony (CC, farms, wood, etc..)
3. learn structured build-up
4. learn about diplomacy/trade
5. learn fighting in larger campaigns

We just need a suitable story around this.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, Grautvornix said:

learn to move units and fight in a small battle

Yes, I was thinking that in the first map, control groups, There you will have a mercenary army available and you will concentrate on fighting against different Kushite invaders.

In that first map you will have to defend and counterattack as well as capture settlements, All this along the Nile River from Karnak.

We will participate in the recapture of Egyptian territory.

[Genava55]

2 hours ago, Grautvornix said:

We just need a suitable story around this.

1. The youth of Alexander the Great, tutored by Aristotle. He then started his military career against the Thracians and Illyrians. Finally, he fought decisively during the Battle of Thebes and Battle of Chaeronea. Several events that could be used for a tutorial. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great
2. The founding of Marseille (Massalia), we could use the myth as a basis for a more free interpretation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_myth_of_Marseille
3. The Ionian Revolt, prelude to the Greco-Persian Wars. Aristagoras is an interesting character. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionian_Revolt

 

[Vantha]

I want to express again that I believe it would be best to opt for a simpler, single-stranded story. The idea of founding a colony fits well in my opinion. Let's just pick an interesting, and somewhat important colony and follow its rise through the campaign. We don't need a crazy amount of content.

3 hours ago, Grautvornix said:

• learn to move units and fight in a small battle
• learn essential parts of building a colony (CC, farms, wood, etc..)
• learn structured build-up
• learn about diplomacy/trade
• learn fighting in larger campaigns

Don't you see how these steps fit together perfectly with the establishment of a colony?

[ShadowOfHassen]

3 hours ago, Vantha said:

Thirdly, and most importantly, (I admit my experience with other RTS's is fairly limited) but the storyline in general seems too complex for a tutorial campaign. I think we should avoid time and place jumps entirely. And limit the number of characters as much as we can. Battus, Psamtek, Apries, Amasis, Cyrene, Naukratis, Daphnae... I did a decent bit of research on the topic and still don't understand all connections. If I as a new player encountered this campaign, I would feel helplessly overwhelmed by the story. I believe what we need is one city, one protagonist (the colony's "oikistes"/founder), one conflict, and one straightforward storyline.

Honestly, I'd argue for telling a somewhat Historical Fiction tale about a colony that we know very little about. That way, we can say it's Historical Fiction and don't have to sacrifice history for a solid tutorial campaign. We'd tell them it's how we guess what happened, of course, but real life really doesn't match up to a good tutorial system.

[ShadowOfHassen]

2 minutes ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

Honestly, I'd argue for telling a somewhat Historical Fiction tale about a colony that we know very little about. That way, we can say it's Historical Fiction and don't have to sacrifice history for a solid tutorial campaign. We'd tell them it's how we guess what happened, of course, but real life really doesn't match up to a good tutorial system.

Oops I didn't see the replies after this. Still, my point stands.

 

I kind of like @Genava55's Massalia idea. But would we have to make a new civilization? I think we'd want to keep to an already made Civ A. because it'd be easier and B. the player could hop right into free play/ online and be familiar with a civilization. (We just swap out the hero with a named one.)

I think it might be a good idea to use Athens because it's a fairly standard civilization. I see it almost as a "generic" civilization of all the Hellenistic Civs (which are a large part of our civilizations.) But more experienced players can disagree, and they'd be probably right.

[Lion.Kanzen]

26 minutes ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

kind of like @Genava55's Massalia idea. But would we have to make a new civilization? I think we'd want to keep to an already made Civ A. because it'd be easier and B. the player could hop right into free play/ online and be familiar with a civilization. (We just swap out the hero with a named one.)

The only problem with Massalia is that it doesn't lead us to any other story.

Neukratis connects well with the Ionian revolt.

If you read the events that led to this.

The Greek mercenaries get into trouble in Egypt and Asia Minor.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inaros_II

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 hours ago, Grautvornix said:

learn to move units and fight in a small battle

The first map, the defense of Egypt.

In this map you defend the Nile River from the Kushite invaders.

1- You learn everything with the mechanics of groups, formations, grouping units, stances, using hoplites in the front line. Cretan archers in the rearguard.

2- You learn to use ships to protect units.

3- You learn how to heal your soldiers.

4- You learn how to capture buildings.

5- You learn to counter cavalry.

All this on a map similar to this one.

[Genava55]

1 hour ago, Vantha said:

The idea of founding a colony fits well in my opinion.

Philip II of Macedon rebuilt Stagira in exchange for Aristotle tutoring his son https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagira_(ancient_city)

[Genava55]

56 minutes ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

But would we have to make a new civilization?

No. This issue will arise constantly, for every Greek city state mentioned in any remarkable stories.

[ShadowOfHassen]

15 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Philip II of Macedon rebuilt Stagira in exchange for Aristotle tutoring his son https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stagira_(ancient_city)

That is a cool idea, and it'd allow us to link it to a coming campaign (Alexander the Great) you could even have Aristotle teaching the game kind of.

The one thing is to make sure it's accessible to even beginners for RTS we need (in my opinion) the first campaign cover basic movement, fighting and some basic treasure stuff (NOT a full battle though) Alexander on a hunt??? After that, you need one on economy and a little fighting (economy in RTS is tricky) and finally one that's focused on the military (Ships, rams etc.)

[Genava55]

1 hour ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

The one thing is to make sure it's accessible to even beginners for RTS we need (in my opinion) the first campaign cover basic movement, fighting and some basic treasure stuff (NOT a full battle though) Alexander on a hunt??? After that, you need one on economy and a little fighting (economy in RTS is tricky) and finally one that's focused on the military (Ships, rams etc.)

1. Alexander learnt to hunt during his childhood and continued to hunt during his adolescence and adult time.
2. He was learning with his companions Ptolemy, Hephaistion, and Cassander at the same spot. So probably they did hunt.
3. There is a minor battle against the Maedi and the founding of a town, Alexandrupolis. https://www.livius.org/articles/place/alexandrupolis/

 

[ShadowOfHassen]

12 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

1. Alexander learnt to hunt during his childhood and continued to hunt during his adolescence and adult time.
2. He was learning with his companions Ptolemy, Hephaistion, and Cassander at the same spot. So probably they did hunt.
3. There is a minor battle against the Maedi and the founding of a town, Alexandrupolis. https://www.livius.org/articles/place/alexandrupolis/

 

That could work. It would give us a continuation into history, and we could make Aristotle "Teach" the game mechanics. I like it.

 

Any other thoughts or things I'm missing?

[Genava55]

Single player campaign references:

Spoiler

 

What quality should we aim for?

[Lion.Kanzen]

There was a tutorial campaign in Empire Earth.

 

 

[Grautvornix]

3 hours ago, Vantha said:

I want to express again that I believe it would be best to opt for a simpler, single-stranded story. The idea of founding a colony fits well in my opinion. Let's just pick an interesting, and somewhat important colony and follow its rise through the campaign. We don't need a crazy amount of content.

Don't you see how these steps fit together perfectly with the establishment of a colony?

Of course I do!

[Vantha]

I think the idea with Alexander the Great could indeed work out. Having Aristotle teach the game would be really cool.

 

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

What quality should we aim for?

What do you mean with "quality"? I've heard that the engine supports cinematic cutscenes to some degree and I might look into it eventually, but I think it's best to focus on the gamepay first. Voice narration would be nice to have as well, but with it comes the hurdle of translation.

 

What we should do is create a long list of specific things we want to teach the player over the course of the entire campaign. Then bring them in logical order, divide them into multiple chunks and assign one to each tutorial scenario. And then try how it fits together with the story.

 

Some past efforts: