Proposing changes to the native names of some units and buildings

[Vantha]

Over the course of researching for the encyclopedia I've found and noted down a few cases of units or buildings, where (I think) a new native name in place of the current one would be more fitting and correct.

Plus, if I remember correctly, @ShadowOfHassen did too, from his research.

And, of course, everyone is free to share their suggestions here as well.

 

My question is: Would it be possible to get them into the game?

It would only require editing the "SpecificName" property in he designated XML template. My idea is to list all of my suggestions in this thread here, explain my thought process and cite the sources. And then submit the names, that people agree with / confirm, on phabricator.

 

Is this wanted / welcomed? I only want to make the effort of extensive researching and laying out my reasoning if there's a good chance the names make it into the game. (Of course, only the ones that members of the wildfiregames team end up considering worth using). I really don't want to seem uppish or pushy because that's totally not how this is meant. I just don't want to dedicate myself to work that ultimately leads to no outcome.

 

Hope you understand what I mean,

Vantha

[Gurken Khan]

I assume some thought went into the native names, but sure, if you got better suggestions and the sources for them I'm all for choosing the more appropriate names!

Probably the devs and players would agree, so I don't see a reason why they shouldn't make it into the game.

[Vantha]

Firstly (I think I've brought this up at some point in the past already):

Scythian Archer:

They are only referred to as "the Archers" or "the Scythians" (both labels for "barbarians"), and also - most characteristically - as the (S)peusinians (in Greek: "(S)peusinioi"). Therefore I suggest the following change:

Toxótēs Skythikós (a word-by-word translation into Greek) --> Speusinios or Peusinios

Sources:

Quote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_archers:

The Scythian archers were called toxotai (τοξόται, literally "[the] archers"), Skythai (Σκύθαι, literally "[the] Scythians"), and Speusinioi (Σπευσίνιοι), which was named after a certain Speusinos, the alleged founder of the force.

 

https://www.thecollector.com/scythian-archers-ancient-athens/:

Much later in the 2nd century CE, the Greek scholar Julius Pollux wrote:        

“Those public slaves before the law course and other gatherings, to whom they gave the task of restraining those who behaved inappropriately and those who said what should not be said, were called “Scythians” and “archers” and “Speusinioi” after the man who organized their service.     (Julius Pollux 8.131-2)    

Of the politician Speusis, nothing is known, though the name is corroborated by the (undated and unnamed) scholiast for Aristophanes’ play The Acharnians:        

“The Archers are public slaves, guards of the city, 1,000 in number, who first dwelt in tents pitched in the middle of the agora, but then moved to the Areopagus. These were called “Scythians” and “Peusinoi”. A certain Peusis – one of the Politicians of old – having organized their activities.”     (Scholiast On Aristophanes, Acharnians 54)

 

/https://www.stoa.org/demos/article_scythian_archers@page=all&greekEncoding=UnicodeC.html:

Archers: The public slaves, guards of the city, in number 1000, who formerly lived in the Agora, camping out in the middle, but later moved to the Areopagus. These were called ‘Scythians’ and ‘Speusinioi,’ from a certain Speusinos, one of the ancient politicians, who organized their affairs” (Τοξόται· οἱ δημόσιοι ὑπηρέται, φύλακες τοῦ ἄστεος, τὸν ἀριθμὸν χίλιοι, οἵτινες πρότερον μὲν ᾤκουν τὴν ἀγορὰν μέσην σκηνοποιησάμενοι, ὕστερον δὲ μετέβησαν εἰς Ἄρειον Πάγον, ἐκαλοῦντο δὲ οὗτοι καὶ Σκύθαι καὶ Σπευσίνιοι; ἀπὸ Σπευσίνου τινὸς τῶν πάλαι πολιτευομένων συντάξαντος τὰ περὶ αὐτούς) (Suda tau,772; see also Schol. In Aristoph. Ach. 54, which is almost identical except for saying “Peusinioi” and “Peusinus” instead of “Speuninioi” [That's a typo, it should be “Speusinioi”] and “Speusinos”; also Hescythius, 1137; Schol. In Aristoph. Ach. 54; Schol. In Aristoph. Ach. 707; Schol. In Aristoph. Lys. 184; Suda omega,243; Suda tau,771).

 

[Vantha]

Secondly (and I've brought this one up in the past as well)

The Han mangonel (catapult):

A disclaimer straight away: I do not speak Chinese, so I can't confirm terms first hand or use primary sources.

The current name is a literal translation of the word "trebuchet" into Chinese. (Traction) catapults in Ancient China instead actually were referred to as
"砲pào", the same word that is later also used for cannons. In the much later Song dynasty catapults were also classified by the number of wooden spars making up the catapult's arm. The 3D model in-game has one only which would make it a "single-beam trebuchet", a "筲砲砲Dān Shāo Pào", though the frame looks a bit different. The same military compendium also mentions the "crouching tiger" catapult, the "虎蹲砲Hǔ dūn pào" which looks pretty similar to ours. However, in my opinion this last name is way too specific, and seems exclusive for the Song period.

Therefore, I suggest the following change:
Tóushí Chē -> Pào or Dān Shāo Pào (and just maybe Hǔ dūn pào)


Sources:

Quote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangonel:

The mangonel was called al-manjanīq, arrada, shaytani, or sultani in Arabic. In China, the mangonel was called the pào (砲).

• Whirlwind – a swivel mangonel for shooting small missiles that could be turned to face any direction
  • Whirlwind battery – five whirlwind mangonels combined on a single turntable
• Pao che (catapult cart) – a whirlwind mangonel on wheels
• Crouching tiger – medium sized mangonel considered stronger than the whirlwind type but weaker than the four-footed
• Four-footed – a trestle-frame mangonel for shooting heavier projectiles
  • Two-seven component – different weight classes for the four-footed type indicated by the number of poles bound together to create the swinging arm

And this paper: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Paul-Chevedden/publication/285140517_The_Traction_Trebuchet_A_Triumph_of_Four_Civilizations/links/577aaf5508aece6c20fbd9a1/The-Traction-Trebuchet-A-Triumph-of-Four-Civilizations.pdf:
See page 452 and the corresponding images from page 474 onwards

 

[Vantha]

The Han stable

The current name is a literal translation of the word "stable" into Chinese.
The Han practiced horse breeding to a large extent in designated breeding stations (mainly along the northern border). As far as I found out, there was no unique proper name for these horse keeping facilities, however, they weren't "stables" at all, more like wide open ranches. Instead, they were most frequently referred to with the word "苑Yuàn" ("garden") or "马苑 Mǎ Yuàn" ("horse garden").

I suggest this change:
Mǎ Jiù -> Mǎ Yuàn

Sources:
 

Quote

I came across many sources directly citing these following passages that use the word Yuàn :

-  太仆牧师诸苑三十六所,分布北边、西边。以郎为苑监，官奴婢三万人，养马三十万匹。(in context roughly translating to :"The Imperial Household Department had 36 gardens, distributed in the north and west, with Lang as the supervisor, 30,000 slaves and 300,000 horses.")

-  益造苑马以广用 (in context roughly translating to:" [Emperor Jing] constructed the horse garden for widespread use"

And lastly (althought I'm not sure about this one): 边郡六牧师苑令 (seems to be an official position managing the horse ranches)

For example:
https://zhuanlan-zhihu-com.translate.goog/p/542165420?utm_id=0&_x_tr_sl=zh-TW&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp
https://www-cncea-cn.translate.goog/news-info-1938.html?_x_tr_sl=el&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp

 

[Vantha]

Han champion spearman (Hǔ Bēn)

This time it's about the GenericName (the translated descriptive name):
At the moment, this unit is called "Palace Guard Spearman".
"虎賁 Hǔ Bēn" (usually translated to something like "Rapid as Tigers") were indeed a guard unit stationed around palaces. However, they were not actually responsible for guarding the palaces, but rather the emperor himself (who just happened to spend most of his time at palaces). This distinction is important because there was another (completely separate) unit specifically assigned to just guard all palace buildings – even in absence of the imperial family. The Han bureaucracy strictly differentiated between corps of imperial guards and palace guards - so much so, in fact, that they had two different ministries for them.

Thus here is the change I'm suggesting:
Palace Guard Spearman -> Imperial guard spearman
(It would be cool to also include "Rapid as Tigers", but I'm afraid it would feel out-of-style with the names of other units)

Sources:
 

Quote

https://www.academia.edu/19589765/The_Administration_of_the_Later_Han_Empire:
the Minister of the Household (光祿勳 guangluxun: Superintendent of the Imperial Household), responsible for the immediate security of the emperor and for his attendants at court;
the Minister of the Guards (衛尉 weiwei: Commandant of the Guards), responsible for the security of the imperial palaces;

The Minister of the Guards, moreover, was responsible for the imperial palaces, and particularly for the walls and gates between the compounds. The men under his command numbered almost two thousand, divided between the Northern and Southern Palaces, with contingents at each gate and passage-way, and tallies to identify each person going in or out.
At the same time, with quite a different chain of command, the Minister of the Household had charge of the emperor's personal security. His subordinates included courtiers and attendants at every level, but the main body for defence were the gentlemen under the Generals of the Household for All Purposes (五官中郎將 wuguan zhonglangjiang), on the Left (左 zuo) and the Right (右 you), together with the Rapid As Tigers (虎賁 huben) and the Feathered Forest (羽林 yulin)

Translations of Huben 虎賁:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation_of_Han_dynasty_titles

Bielenstein: Rapid as Tigers imperial guard

Dull: Rapid as Tigers imperial guard

de Crespigny: Rapid as Tigers imperial guard

Hucker: Brave as Tigers palace guard

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

3 hours ago, Vantha said:

Palace Guard Spearman -> Imperial guard spearman

Tiger Guard

[Vantha]

26 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Tiger Guard

Good idea. Or maybe 'Tiger Guard Spearman'. Much better (and more unique) than just 'imperial/palace guard spearman'.

[Vantha]

Han minister

To my understanding the name currently in use ("官吏 Guānlì") is a collective term for government officials ( which is obviously not wrong, as ministers symbolically represent the entire government). However, after all, the unit is still called "minister" and limited to nine at a time in reference to the Han dynasty's nine ministers. And these nine ministers (/ chamberlains) were called "九卿 jiǔ qīng" with "九 jiǔ" translating to "nine" and "卿 qīng" translating to minister(s) or other high ranking officials.
Here is the change I am suggesting:

Guānlì -> Qīng

 

Sources:

Quote

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2718206:

page 17:
C. Other Ranking Ministers
Students of government institutions during the Han period are
familiar with the terms San kung (Three Lords) and Chiu
ch'ing [= jiǔ qīng] (Nine Ministers), which comprise all the ministers
of importance in the central government. [...]
The word ch'ing [= qīng] was applied in the same way to the nine ministers
who ranked below the three kung, and whom we may call ranking
ministers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Ministers

The Nine Ministers or Nine Chamberlains (Chinese: 九卿; pinyin: jiǔ qīng )was the collective name for nine high officials in the imperial government of the Han dynasty (206 BC–220 AD), who each headed one of the Nine Courts and were subordinates to the Three Councillors of State.

http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Terms/jiuqing.html
The Nine Chamberlains (jiuqing 九卿) were the highest members of the central government of the empire below the Counsellor-in-chief (chengxiang 丞相). From the 3rd century CE on they gradually lost their political function, and the nine titles were more or less honorific.

The Qin 秦 (221-206 BCE) and early Han 漢 (206 BCE-220 CE) dynasties did in fact not apply the term to concrete offices. This happened only when the Confucians won over the fight for ideological dominance under the reign of Emperor Wu 漢武帝 (r. 141-87 BCE). The term was then used for officials with a salary of 2,000 shi 石 of grain. The term jiuqing was regularly used in imperial edicts thereafter, but applied to a wide range of high offices in the central government. The usurper Wang Mang 王莽 (r. 8-23 CE) was the first who determined which nine offices were to be subsumed under the designation jiuqing. The Later Han 後漢 (25-220 CE) followed this precedent and determined the following offices as those of the nine Chamberlains [ministers]

 

[Vantha]

No, I have not forgotten about this.

Han Champion Cavalry Spearman

This unit is currently called "Wu Wei Yin Cao Cao Guard" (which strangely enough includes the word 'guard', even though though the specific names are supposed to be in the native language?) To my understanding it represents the tiger and leopard cavalry which is an odd choice of unit to say the least; this corps was part of warlord Cao Cao's army. Cao Cao lived at the end of the Eastern Han dynasty (contrary to the fact that the in-game civilization is focused on the earlier Western Han dynasty) meaning it falls out of 0ad EA's timeframe by 200 years. Moreover, Cao Cao led private armies, followed his personal interests and was actually co-responsible for the Han dynasty's downfall. I think it's obvious why this unit doesn't fit.

Because the Han champion cavalry spearman's visual actor looks pretty generic, I believe changing its generic and specific names would be enough to turn it into a historically better-fitting unit.

Here are some that I found in my research:

Firstly, the most obvious for champions would be the Northern army, a standing force of professional soldiers. Three of its regiments are cavalry:

- Yuèqí. Comprised of Yue people (ethnicity from southern China).

- Túnqí. Heavy cavalry stationed near (and guarding) the capital.

- Chángshuǐ. Comprised of Xiognu tribes that had joined the Han.


Another idea are Wūhuán. Some nomadic peoples allied with the Han in the fight against the Xiognu and even settled on Han territory. While they were viewed a "barbarians", they were also - due to their lifestyle - very skilled on horseback and enjoyed elite status in the Han ranks. (Although, I was neither able to verify how frequently they actually fought for the Han nor whether they actually mingled under the Han troops. Plus, they were mainly known for the horse archery - and not melee fighting)

One last option is Yōuzhōu cavalry. Youzhou was a precarious border region around modern-day Beijing known for their valuable cavalrymen (renown for fighting as shock troops) who helped Liu Xiu to unify China (and thus founding the Eastern Han dynasty) and also appeared during the later Three Kingdoms period.

 

Sources:

Spoiler

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Cao-Cao

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cao_Chun
The "Tiger and Leopard Cavalry" (虎豹騎) unit that Cao Chun led was an elite mounted unit in Cao Cao's forces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_Han_dynasty
The Northern Army was the formal professional force of full-time soldiers which had existed since 180 BC. It originally consisted of eight regiments and around 8,000 troops, but was later reorganized from 31 to 39 AD into a smaller force of five regiments, around 4,200 troops. [...]

Command structure of the Northern Army in 39 AD

Army (軍 jun)	Inspector	Commander	Regiment (部 bu)	Troops
Northern Army (北軍 beijun)	Captain of the center (北軍中候 beijun zhonghou)	Colonel (校尉 xiaowei)	Picked cavalry (越騎 yueji)	900
		Colonel (校尉 xiaowei)	Garrison cavalry (屯騎 tunji)	900
		Colonel (校尉 xiaowei)	Archers who shoot at sound (射聲 shesheng)	900
		Colonel (校尉 xiaowei)	Foot soldiers (步兵 bubing)	900
		Colonel (校尉 xiaowei)	Chang River (長水 changshui)	900

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuhuan
In 71 BC, the Wuhuan joined the Han, Dingling, and Wusun to defeat the Xiongnu.
In 121 BC, the Han dynasty general Huo Qubing defeated the eastern wing of the Xiongnu. He then settled the Wuhuan in five commanderies (Shanggu, Yuyang, Youbeiping, Liaoxi and Liaodong) created on the northern Chinese border in order to use them to keep watch of the Xiongnu. The chieftains of the Wuhuan paid annual visits to the Han capital Chang'an and were given rewards.

https://baike-baidu-hk.translate.goog/item/%E5%B9%BD%E5%B7%9E%E7%AA%81%E9%A8%8E/9933759?_x_tr_sl=zh-TW&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp
 

 

Edited August 25 by Vantha

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Vantha said:

- Túnqí. Heavy cavalry stationed near (and guarding) the capital.

I think this. 

[Vantha]

5 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I think this. 

I'd be fine with that. Though, I think my first pick would be the Youzhou cavalry. Mainly due to their explicit mention as shock units and their actual military importance compared to other cavalry divisions.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

34 minutes ago, Vantha said:

I'd be fine with that. Though, I think my first pick would be the Youzhou cavalry. Mainly due to their explicit mention as shock units and their actual military importance compared to other cavalry divisions.

They seem to be too late though.

[Vantha]

13 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

They seem to be too late though.

In some regard, yes. Helping to reunite China and establish the Eastern Han dynasty probably marks their biggest entry in history books. This happened around 20 BC which falls out of the 500 BC to 0 AD timeframe by a short margin.

However, the later cavalry unit of Gongsun Zan (which stayed active into the Three Kingdoms period) popping up in the Google search results is actually not the same as the Youzhou cavalry of the Han dynasty. Gongsun Zan founded and trained the so-called "White Horse Volunteers" (or "White Horse Cavalry") based on the earlier Youzhou cavalry. Although these two are often confused with each other, they are strictly speaking not the same unit - not only in terms of their name, but also their role and equipment.

Additionally, the Youzhou cavalry already existed in the Western Han dynasty. While they didn't attract as much attention at this point as the did later, they took part in campaigns and battles against the Xiognu - the pivotal conflict of the Western Han dynasty. The Youzhou cavalrymen were settled on precarious border regions to be readily available at all times. That's why I'd argue they were militarily more valuable than a prestige regiment garrisoned around the capital.

 

[alre]

7 hours ago, Vantha said:

This happened around 20 BC which falls out of the 500 BC to 0 AD timeframe by a short margin.

not. 

I agree that the unit more present in the sources, and more influent, is a better and fascinating pick.

[Vantha]

1 hour ago, alre said:

8 hours ago, Vantha said:

This happened around 20 BC which falls out of the 500 BC to 0 AD timeframe by a short margin.

not. 

It's supposed to be AD 20, of course, my bad.